Heroes of Newerth

[zircon]

You're just not making any sense. You can't take random items and say "well, with THIS item you could match these abilities of another hero." If we're talking about being more farmed, then Witch would have a Totem as well, giving him 3 disables to Pyro's two.

[relyanCe]

your analogy doesn't make sense

well YOU DONT MAKE SENSE

k.. whitetext weeeeeeeeeeeee

[bladiator]

I'm going to have to agree with zircon that his analogy made sense and your appending of his analogy did not make sense.

[Dhsu]

Yeah, I think if a hero needs a 5k item to be roughly equivalent to another hero, that's pretty much the textbook definition of inferior.

[eternal Zero]

Here's the thing: She doesn't need sheep stick. Never has. Here are the main reasons for her use:

Reliable AoE stun.

Reliable AoE damage.

Useful ult.

She doesn't need any items ever. She could ward all day long and still be a huge deal in battle (mind you that I have seen at most a handful of pro games that ever get to lategame).

Her 3rd skill is just gravy. And like I've said before. Having only 3 useful skills is actually a GOOD thing. It makes your build more efficient and you don't really need 4 useful spells to make a hero as many of them prove.

Why Lion is not used:

Stun is pretty much single target. I mean you could argue a good player always getting at least two targets but more often than not you'll see the pros going for just one hero to be sure of the hit.

Mana Drain is useless after level 6 but every good Lion player starts with it. This means you waste a few levels into this necessary skill that will not be using effectively again. Also any good opposing lane will know to punish you while you channel it. So any benefit can be negated.

And lastly, Hex (or Miniaturize as HoN calls it) is super expensive so you won't be casting this regularly until level 14-15 when your mana can handle it because you absolutely need to keep your stun and ult on hand because otherwise you aren't doing enough damage as you cast.

While he does share the lack of needing any items you will rarely see a Lion initiate a winning battle where you'll see Lina do it all the time.

Also the presence of another sure stunner (like Sven [Hammerstorm]) makes Lina [Pyro] stun one of the very best in the game. This is why you will see this lane in 8/10 pro games. It's just that good. As for Lion you'll see him when he wants to babysit a hero like Admiral cause he'll go ganking at level 6 and will generally keep his lanemate safe. This, however, is not used nearly as much because Admiral has a better partner in Lich and also a strong mid solo.

[zircon]

Pyro's stun = 600 range, 200 radius, 1.6 second stun. Longer buildup. Harder to land.

Witch's stun = 700 range, 150 radius, 2.5 second stun. Much easier to land.

How likely is it that a bunch of enemy heroes are bunched up in a 200 radius vs. 150? Also Pyro's stun simply can't be used to chase. Witch's graveyard WILL catch up with just about anyone due to its incredibly range and cast speed. Not to mention it lasts an entire second longer.

I've also never needed more than one level in mana drain. Since it's 600 range, you can safely channel for at LEAST one second, so it's an absolute minimum of 10 free mana every 25 seconds (equivalent of a built-in 0.4 mana regen) but it's really not hard to get an extra second or two, which again effectively makes your mana regen much higher. I prefer to build Witch as a ganker so I always go Bottle meaning that between the two, I never have mana problems and can even stun -> bottle -> hex -> bottle -> ult if for some reason I'm that low. My preferred build involves going Nome's first actually since it synergizes pretty well with Witch's 4 active abilities, gives him nice armor to make up for his low base, and allows him to generally spam all day.

Pyro/Hammer is strong, sure. But Witch/Hammer will keep them stunned even longer. Also, Panda/Witch is an incredible combo.

[Tensei]

http://honleague.com/tournaments.php?do=view&id=5

Anyone want to try joining some tournaments? Seems like it could be fun. At least 5 of us I think could put up a good fight in a really competitive match.

I'd definitely be up for it. Today has been a massive boost to my confidence as I've consistently dominated games with a variety of heroes. :3

[BardicKnowledge]

Pyro also has a worse animation than Lina does iirc.

That being said, what pyro has going for him is that the aoe stun also does a fair amount of damage -- THIS is why pyro/hammer is better than witch/hammer. Witch has only one damage spell to unload early, while pyro gets 2.

Edit: I'd play in that tourney, why not.

[Hemophiliac]

i could do competitive games.

[zircon]

I'd definitely be up for it. Today has been a massive boost to my confidence as I've consistently dominated games with a variety of heroes. :3

Opposite for me... three really stupid losses that should have been easy wins. Ugh. Bad playing and bad decision-making all around. The last couple games tonight really proved how amazing Jester and Kraken are - Kraken's initiation is simply unbeatable and wins teamfights by itself, while Jester's Cursed Ground scales throughout the entire game and makes him an incredible threat.

Also reminds me of how lackluster Blood Hunter is. Even with ridiculous farm he's just bad compared to many carries.

Edit: New patch! Engineer is no longer auto-countered by Barbed Armor. Nome's Wisdom changes:

+6 Strength

+6 Agility

+16 Intelligence

+10 Damage

+100% Mana Regeneration

Heal-on-cast/armor/mana regen Aura

I'd say this is now a must-have item on almost any caster - it's 200 gold cheaper than it was before, too. Other incredible stuff:

* Turret... buffed? Nerfed? Hard to say

* Forsaken buffed - big time (Crippling Volley ministuns, ult does even more damage at +400 range)

* Maliken nerfed, hooray

* Booboo nerf (renamed to Beardulon)

* Tree buffed? Gotta play this

Edit 2: OK, played the new Tree in practice. Wow. His base damage and HP is now VERY high (57-67 and 660 or so, respectively) but most importantly his abilities were buffed. His eyes have truesight now (though no regen aura.) His stealth ability now does not break when he casts his other abilities, meaning you can stealth/buff your entire team and root while staying invis - again, very cool. But most importantly, his garbage damage skill is gone, replaced with an armor/HP regen buff. It lasts a long time, is on a short cooldown, and doesn't cost much. At level 4 it's 12 armor and 4 HP regen for 40 seconds. Sick!

I'd say these changes move Keeper up several tiers.

[Hemophiliac]

oh good they finally gave him the buff from dota, that thing was so much better than old eyes...about damn time, tree is much more playable now.

[Dhsu]

Healing buildings is, as po might say, CRAJEEEEE. The enemy team will pretty much have to destroy them in one go or face a full-health building next time. I'll probably actually play this guy a fair bit from now on...just have to do a practice game sometime to figure out where all the good eye spots are.

I'm guessing his garbage skill was transferred to Deadwood, whose playstyle it will probably fit much better. Maybe a debuff-based support/DPS hybrid?

[Hemophiliac]

deadwood is gonna be hellborne str hero.

just a guess.

[Tensei]

Don't know about you guys but I'm hoping for deadwood to be a big fat STR carry.

[bladiator]

Sweet! I love playing the keeper even though he was woefully hard to use consistently before. Now he's a MACHINE! A ... wooden tree machine.

[Barnsalot]

What?! They renamed Booboo?

[LuketheXjesse]

The name isn't even good either. It makes it look like they're trying too hard.

[Tensei]

I think skeleton builds would be a lot more viable on forsaken archer now for several reasons (haven't tested this yet):

- The skeletons no longer auto-attack creeps, they only target what you target, so in effect, they just increase the threshold at which you can lasthit.

- The skeletons have 420 MS now, which is faster than anything earlygame, and faster than 90% of the heroes later on. Chasing and ganking should be a lot easier.

- The DoT significantly increases their early DPS output. It doesn't scale, but immobilizing an enemy and hitting with him with skeletons and autoattacks in lane would HURT early on.

- They rape you in 3 seconds. Seriously.

Saturday, December 5th 2009 --

Schools all over the United States, and now also in Europe, have begun rewriting elementary curriculum. It appears that for decades we have been teaching the youth of the world how to count to ten, which would give no insight to the length of rape via skeleton(s), and therefore have no use in practical life situations.

"S2 patched to 1.60 and now anything beyond 3 seconds is just not enough time," comments a discouraged HoN player.

Most anyone would agree... Check out some of these testimonies:

"I mean FFS, you can't even concede before 15 minutes, that's 15min x 60 sec = 900 sec / 3 SRTI (or Skeletal Rape Time Interval) (SRTI is now being adopted into Statistics curriculum as well) = 300 deaths before you can even concede! My KDR is so F*cked." - Charles Lemont, 33

"My mother gave me a whistle, when I was the ripe age of 13, to protect myself on the streets against sexual predators. Last night, I threw my whistle away. I had to lane against Forsaken Archer, and the skeletons starting raping me. I knew I didn't have much time, I tug on the string around my neck, put the whistle in my mouth, blew... but it was all too late. By the time the piercing noise reached a family member's ear, I was already awaiting respawn in the fountain, and the sinful deed had already been completed, it hurt SO bad, and it only took 3 seconds. - Aimee McCarson, 19

"Well, when Engineer was OP, I just bought Barbed Armor and his turret would die immediately. That short, cigar-smoking dwarf would be without his killing crutch for at least 30 seconds. Here's the problem with Archer, Barbed armor, great item, has a duration of 5 seconds I believe. It DOESN'T F*CKING MATTER THE F*CKIN' SKELETONS WILL RAW DOG YOUR ASS IN 3." - Willie Paterson, 23

There you have it, as it would seem there is no hope for civilization. The world ends in 2012? No, those Myans/Incans, or whatever they are called were wrong. December 5th, 2009, Rape can be commenced by skeletons, in just 3 seconds.

For more information about how much time you and your loved ones have before they are raped by skeletons, please visit the Heroes of Newerth Beta forums for line graphs, pie charts, and other testimonies and confirmations by other misfortunate victims.

[Arek the Absolute]

Glad they gave him his armor buff back.

Don't know what they were thinking with the other skill.

[eternal Zero]

Edit 2: OK, played the new Tree in practice. Wow. His base damage and HP is now VERY high (57-67 and 660 or so, respectively) but most importantly his abilities were buffed. His eyes have truesight now (though no regen aura.) His stealth ability now does not break when he casts his other abilities, meaning you can stealth/buff your entire team and root while staying invis - again, very cool. But most importantly, his garbage damage skill is gone, replaced with an armor/HP regen buff. It lasts a long time, is on a short cooldown, and doesn't cost much. At level 4 it's 12 armor and 4 HP regen for 40 seconds. Sick!

I'd say these changes move Keeper up several tiers.

Welcome to the hero from DotA. Only thing missing is that in DotA his eyes skill creates a brand new tree so you can place them pretty much anywhere. He used to be able to solo mid pretty effectively due to insane base stats + Living Armor (the DotA name for the buff) is one of the best skills in the game.

[Rambo]

hahaha. That forsaken archer thread is win. It was nice to see a developer and admin having fun with it as well. Last post: "Should've locked this in 3 seconds".

[Tensei]

YESSSSS

[LuketheXjesse]

What the

Who does the gold and experience go to???

[Tensei]

The courier, obviously.

Nah, I'm pretty sure the gold goes to the courier's owner and the XP just fizzles because you have to be in a certain radius of the death to get XP for it.

[Dhsu]

The courier, obviously.

Nah, I'm pretty sure the gold goes to the courier's owner and the XP just fizzles because you have to be in a certain radius of the death to get XP for it.

WTF, I had no idea you could use items on the courier. What was that, Codex? More importantly, why doesn't everyone just fly around harrassing people and kill-stealing low-health stragglers?