Heroes of Newerth

[zircon]

Deadwood certainly seems powerful, though his first ability is very skill-dependent.

Man, it is really demoralizing to lose so much though. Despite what I said earlier, it just doesn't feel good to lose 8-9 matches in a row, especially when you're playing well overall. What sucks is that I always seem to end up in games where nobody talks or coordinates, forcing me to be the leader. While I'm not a bad player, I wouldn't say that I deserve to lead every game I'm in either :/

[Kidd Cabbage]

Important post, please read.

HoN is not a game necessarily suited for the 'casual' player. One player not pulling their weight can ruin a game, and make everyone else feel like their time was wasted. In fact, one can play as well as possible, but it is very hard to carry your ENTIRE team, even as an amazing player. The best you can do is try to lead and push them to victory, but even this doesn't always happen. It's definitely frustrating when you personally have a flawless execution, but "your team" loses the game for you.

When I was reading the "good sportsmanship in games" thread I noticed how I was arguing that our community is generally pretty friendly when it comes to competitive games. However, with HoN, that unfortunately isn't really the case. I'm guilty of it myself, so I'm not saying this to implicate one or two people specifically. I really think we all need to take a deep breath and scale back our verbal/textual abuse which is often directed at newer or less-skilled players. Over the last few days there has been some serious berating and flaming, and the last thing we want to do is chase people away from this scene.

You have to keep a few things from mind as you play:

(a) If you're playing with teams of roughly equal skill, you have a FIFTY percent chance of losing. So, expect to lose. A lot. Don't whine about it excessively. DO analyze why you lost and try to do better in the future.

( When you lose, it is just as much your fault as anyone else's on your team. While I've been in situations where I was 5-6 levels above my team, super-farmed and still lost, even in these situations I probably could have done more to help. So, don't absolve yourself from all responsibility and blame it on everyone else. For example, in the last game I played, we were having a hard time dealing with Pandamonium, and Luke got blamed for our loss (inability to stun Panda.) But in hindsight, I should have bought Barbed Armor or a Void Talisman. Puppet Master should have gone a support build instead of DPS. Accursed should have KSed me less. Valkyrie should have had better initiating arrows. etc.

© We're all only human. It doesn't feel good to be yelled at and called a screwup, or blamed for every loss. Do you really think this motivates most people? No. Try to be positive at least some of the time and help each other to correct mistakes AND compliment what they're doing right. This is not a simple game by any stretch of imagination so if someone doesn't spend hours every day playing/researching (like me) they might need to be reminded of concepts that would appear, to more skilled players, to be very basic.

Let's not prove people in that other thread right about how "playing to win" makes us all assholes.

This is what I've been constantly saying when we play in-houses for months.

[eternal Zero]

So my initial thoughts on Deadwood when he was just on paper are correct. He's a solid ganker/semi-carry but he shouldn't carry (but he can if you're good enough). 1st skill is pretty much taken straight from Admiral but has as slight pull to the center. Easy to use (for me, anyway) and a great ability. Overall a solid hero but has to be near a good patch of trees to do well. Find him in the river and he'll have to run away. Ult is too strong with a team-wide % reduction to HP. Even with a bunch of ganking going on I had a good 4 level lead and was a force in a bunch of team fights just because of how good my ult was.

[Rambo]

I had to walk away from my computer the other day

I had to do this after a couple of in-house games as well. Of my most discouraging HoN experiences, none have taken place in pubs. They've all happened during in-house games, or even more sadly, in the OCR community channel.

I understand the competitive nature of the game. That being said, most people distinguish the in-house sessions as "friendly" games, and through experience I find this a trifle misleading. Most people call them "friendly" games yet regard them as competitive scrims. If a full in-house game is ever being designated as a scrim, I'm sure myself, Luke, and Jade would be more than happy to spectate or find something else to do. So just let us know what we're getting in to.

I got pretty angry the other day when someone told Luke that he should (and I'm paraphrasing) "focus on 2-3 heroes like Jade and Rambo, instead of being shitty as all of them"

To an extent I agree. It's nice to have some solid, assured picks. But considering that every time we do an in-house game we play in style of a banning draft, I don't blame Luke in the least for testing the water with every hero, and it's ignorant to tell him otherwise in a "friendly" match. If you're going to try a new hero, when would be a better time to learn. It doesn't help that the hero picking order is determined from highest to lowest PSR. This means that if he did focus on 2-3 heroes, even if they WERE in the pool, he's still unlikely to play them. And I can assure you that it's stressful not having your "core heroes" available to pick, knowing the tension in some of these in-house games.

I hope zircon's post gets taken to heart, because it sums up what I would hope for and expect from any OCR group.

@Tensei: No worries about that game. And thanks for that guide to TB. I can assure you I'll be revisiting it until I don't need the reference anymore.

/rant

[Tensei]

Well, I usually end up as a captain in the inhouse games, but I don't really make a conscious effort to force newer players to stick to heroes they know, which IMO is counter-productive anyway. I know newer players often end up as one of the last-picks so I'll usually throw a few suggestions at them which would work on our team, even if they're inexperienced with said heroes, rather than forcing them to stick to what they know.

The way I went about learning new heroes was first reading up on them and picking one that I thought looked interesting, then I just copied/memorized the skill/item build, tried it a few times in practice mode, and then used that hero as much as possible in real games. I failed at most of them until I tried Defiler and proceeded to rape an inhouse. IMO you should just try out ALL heroes and find a few that work well for you.

[LuketheXjesse]

Of my most discouraging HoN experiences, none have taken place in pubs. They've all happened during in-house games, or even more sadly, in the OCR community channel.

Seriously.

[Kidd Cabbage]

LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA

(HoN)

[Bahamut]

I don't have a problem if it's a mistake they haven't come upon before, I'll usually point it out.

What I do have a problem with is when they've made the mistake multiple times in the past, had it pointed out each time, and showed absolutely no effort in rectifying it. The worst part about it oftentimes is that I'm the one who pays the price directly in getting killed because that person refused to fix it, and oftentimes there has been no remorse shown for me paying the price for their actions.

Another thing that strongly bothers me is when in mid/late game I warn of things and someone decides to have a mental lapse and get ganked, or people don't do essential things needed and the team pays the price. At the very least, be considerate for your team! Put yourself in their shoes. Do you know how crappy it is to die because a teammate didn't want to do something or listen? Imagine that happening frequently in every game for a few days.

I'm taking a week break from the game - the past few days have been extremely demoralizing because of some people just not making the effort to learn from their mistakes and letting me and others die as a result.

[Kidd Cabbage]

It's attitudes like that which make playing with some OCR people not much fun, and I'm not the one who's even getting yelled at for this shit.

Like I've said time and time again, I would rather play with Luke than someone on my own skill level that bitches constantly. Luke might not be very good (no offense, brah), but he makes playing the games FUN with his positive attitude. After playing Dota for years, you'll realize that's the most important part.

So really, less QQ (in general - not pointing to Bahamut here).

[Bahamut]

It's also not fun dying because a teammate doesn't want to fix usually a fairly simple mistake. Sorry, but that's even more of an asshole move. I really don't want to play with certain people on my team if all they want to do is get me killed and not even take responsibility & apologize for it. At that point that's not a positive attitude, that's treating your teammate like shit.

[bladiator]

This is the problem though. It's a video game, and somehow it's demoralizing people. IN REAL LIFE. That's just retarded. I'm not going to pretend it doesn't happen to me. Since the few times I played in-house and seen what these guys are talking about, I just play pubs all the time now. Sure, they curse you and call you a noob, but then I tell them they're taking the game too seriously and since there are 30,000+ people playing the game, odds are I'll never see them again.

And like I said, I've left the computer angry at losing the game, and about 10 minutes later I think to myself, "Wow, this game is screwing up my attitude. This game that I play for "fun" is making me angry." And I realize that maybe I just need to find something less stressful to "enjoy" for a hobby if I get this worked up about it.

And yes, I'm pointing at all of you. *points*

[eternal Zero]

I'm going to sidestep talking about drama because honestly I don't ever feel it anymore cause I'm confident in my own ability and I know that what happens in any particular game will stay there. Sure I'll yell if it gets really bad but whatever I get over it real fast. Maybe it's cause I'm capable of still farming well when under pressure and dying for dumb reasons? I don't know. Either way I always feel so perplexed when people rage over this game.

As for learning new heroes: I personally do a trial by fire and just play the hero in a real game. Granted I know enough about the mechanics that I can see how a hero will play just by reading their skills and base stats. Only thing that I'm ever unsure of is the best item build but I usually can work out a solid one just by thinking about it.

[Tensei]

look at mah items

[Hemophiliac]

hearts stack now? both hon and dota both at one point said they didn't.

[Kidd Cabbage]

All he was getting was more health.

[zircon]

Hey guys, a general tip about mid to late game. Don't stop denying creeps. This is the biggest mistake I think I've made, and I've only just now learned better. Basically, if you're a support hero, don't just go out to a lane pushed to your FRIENDLY tower, AOE everything, and run. That leaves "skeleton farm" for the carries, where there is basically nothing for them to do. Not only should you not just wipe entire creep waves, you also should focus on denying your own creeps CONSTANTLY, and I don't just mean last-hitting. Actually hit them as soon as you can to "pull" the lane farther toward your towers. Lanes like these are much safer for carries to farm.

The alternative is blasting all of your lanes out, forcing your carries to either (a) do nothing, ( try to gank (usually risky and waste of xp/gold if you can't get anyone), or © jungle (also risky.) So stop AOEing those creep waves! Save those skills for quick clearing of the jungle.

[SadFace]

I agree with Zircon, if you have proper lane control (Denying, Pulling creeps, any way to pull the creeps closer to your tower) the entire beginning and middle of the game you should find yourself a few levels ahead by late game, giving you the upper hand.

[Battousai]

I admit to raining on people's parties from time to time. I'll have a good game and follow it up with an atrocity, giving up midway and just making it that much worse for everyone. Or like when Bahamut mentioned the game going well up to a point and then something ridiculous happening, I can definitely account for that.

Sorry guys if I've trampled on your feelings or made you feel like you wasted your time playing the inhouse games. Like Zero I don't let the game affect my mood, but I can totally understand the actions of one player leading to others feeling miffed.

I'm also the one who suggested that Luke stick to a few heroes. I hope you don't read that as "if you don't play something you know well, don't bother playing" because that is not my intention. When you're learning it can be greatly beneficial to go into the training mode and see what each hero's abilities do and how that changes based on levels and equipment and such. There's a big difference between 30% life left on TDL compared to KotF and what might otherwise demolish the TDL leaves nary a scratch on the intrepid tree.

I might be going way off topic there. I like taking leadership roles in the game but also work well with people telling me what we should be doing. Even if you're not sure of yourself and you lead your team into the hands of the enemy, you learn. Everybody should try to step up into the leader role from time to time so it isn't always just Zircon or Tensei or Bardic. There's no time like the present to try.

And getting a mic and using it goes a long way.

[Tensei]

Actually the way you should be going about clearing creepwaves in midgame is to try and keep them close to your tower as possible by hard-denying and only last-hitting, but as soon as you start pushing out you need to speed up your farm by auto-attacking (but still getting the last hits) and finally once you're in dangerous territory start using your AoE so you can get to the outpost, buy a homecoming and port out.

[BardicKnowledge]

One more thing about teamwork etc:

When the rest of your team asks you to do something (especially to port somewhere), 99% of the time you need to do what they say that instant. Even if you're sure it's probably the wrong idea, 5 people acting in tandem is always better than 4 people begging the 5th player to help out. This applies to everyone across all skill ranges -- when your team says that they desperately need you, we're not joking...get your asses to where you need to be and help out.

It ruins the game when we have to literally beg our own clanmates to help out at all, and frankly it embarrasses us in front of the general public.

Edit: The only plausible exception to this rule is if you're playing Sand Wraith, where it's actually more effective for you to ult+teleport into the middle of the fight. Everyone else needs to be there on time (which means BEFORE anyone does anything, not right after it starts).

[Tensei]

I am usually aware of when my team would need me but even with carries other than sandwraith, it's often better to keep farming than to try and stop a push and possibly die (and fall behind on farm because of that). Also, my TPs are more often on cooldown than not, because I literally use them constantly, so I often can't TP to defend instantly.

[Dhsu]

when your team says that they desperately need you, we're not joking...get your asses to Mars

Oh dear I amuse myself.

[zircon]

Actually the way you should be going about clearing creepwaves in midgame is to try and keep them close to your tower as possible by hard-denying and only last-hitting, but as soon as you start pushing out you need to speed up your farm by auto-attacking (but still getting the last hits) and finally once you're in dangerous territory start using your AoE so you can get to the outpost, buy a homecoming and port out.

I don't agree with that. You should only start farming entire creep waves via auto attacking + AOEs if you know your team is going to come up and push the lane, or if you need to get to the outpost in early game. Otherwise really what you are doing is feeding the enemy more experience and gold. Every creep you deny takes AWAY potential xp/gold from the enemy.

[Tensei]

I don't agree with that. You should only start farming entire creep waves via auto attacking + AOEs if you know your team is going to come up and push the lane, or if you need to get to the outpost in early game. Otherwise really what you are doing is feeding the enemy more experience and gold. Every creep you deny takes AWAY potential xp/gold from the enemy.

They will get a hell of a lot more XP and gold if they gank you because you hang around in a pushed lane for too long. At a certain point where it's not safe to farm anymore you really should be getting out of there asap, and if you can maximize your gold income by quickly taking down the last few creep waves, it'll make a lot of difference.

[zircon]

But if you AOE creeps and push the lane toward THEIR tower, it's less safe, not more. Why would you be ganked more if you're closer to your own tower? If you are denying properly you will be much safer than if you're pushed all the way to or past the river.