New 2D Sonic in 2010

[Triad Orion]

Well, even if the sound chip wasn't great for the Genesis, did you really find Sonic's sound effects annoying? Because I sure as hell didn't. Most of the time, the sounds fit in well with what was going on screen, and at the time that was really all you could ask for. The sounds weren't obnoxious, they got the job done.

And Makai, I'd like to point out an interesting fact:

For awhile, there was a short period of time where Sonic eclipsed Mario in popularity. I'm sure you know this is *kind* of a big deal, even if the time period was very short. No other video game character really has been able to do this. This should say *something* about the game quality at the time: It shared a genre with Mario, yet it *distinguished* itself against it and in fact was a very different, solid, and fun platformer.

The point was, Sonic didn't need powerups like Fire Flowers or Cape Feathers to make his game interesting. His games became popular based on his base abilities and the construction of their levels: Multiple paths in a platforming stage were rare before Sonic popularized it. So was the concept that you weren't always punished for missing a jump; you just go down a route or two and you could keep on going.

So really? Sonic's games did so well because they were solid, accessible, and fun platformers. We're not blinded by nostalgia. It's all but objective fact that the legacy Sonic titles on the Genesis (Sonic 1-S&K) were very good games for their time.

[LuketheXjesse]

It should look like this:

Sonic x Braid.

I was talking about sound quality, not music quality. The sound chip on the Genesis for all intents and purposes was shit.

You are dead fucking wrong. While it WAS a lower quality, it had a brightness to it the SNES just did not have. Are you gonna tell me that

, THIS, and THIS sound bad? Seriously.

Also, why are you guys even trying to EXPLAIN why sonic is fun? Just play the damn game, it's, dare I say it, enjoyable?

[lazygecko]

The Genesis sound chip(s) was fine, just under-utilized.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

You are dead fucking wrong. While it WAS a lower quality, it had a brightness to it the SNES just did not have. Are you gonna tell me that

, THIS, and THIS sound bad? Seriously.

...Yes. That sounds pretty horrendous. Whether or not the music composition is good is relative(and I'm not even talking about that), but those are some pretty terrible sounding bloops and beeps.

And yeah Triad, Sonic became more popular than Mario and I even think that he's cooler as a character, but Mario got back up and better as the years went by. For all the innovations and cool stuff Sonic brought, he was still just running.

[Ralphis]

FM Synth is the only way to listen to music. You've gotta probably hate all music from the 80s and early 90s too.

Also, I'm not sure why Sonic needs to have capes and other shit to make him a decent platformer. While Mario just ran left and right and needed powerups to get up into the air, Sonic allowed you to do so much more by utilizing the levels themselves.

Also, I'm not sure how anyone else feels about this, but I always felt like it was really the physics of the genesis Sonic games that made them as fun as they are.

[The Coop]

I was talking about sound quality, not music quality. The sound chip on the Genesis for all intents and purposes was shit.

I believe there are a lot of people on this site who would disagree with that opinion. God knows I do.

It may not have been sample-heavy like the SNES sound was (which I know a lot of people loved the SNES for), but I believe the Genesis still put out fantastic synth music over the years... both in composition, and in sound. The likes of Thunder Force IV, Streets of Rage and Master of Monsters (among many others) show this quite clearly I find. In fact, there are some soundtracks that I feel came off better on the Genesis than the SNES, such as Earthworm Jim, and TMNT: The Hyperstone Heist (which has the same soundtrack as TMNT IV). The synths of the Genesis give them a different, harder feel, and there's no sample cut off (which was present in a good number of SNES titles... and which bugged me a lot).

However, it all comes down to opinion, and it looks like ours are at odds. Some like the FM synth sound, some don't. But since you gave your thoughts voice, I thought I'd do the same for mine.

[Nekofrog]

If you think that sounds bad, your ears are shitty and you are shitty. Sorry, shitty.

[LuketheXjesse]

...Yes. That sounds pretty horrendous. Whether or not the music composition is good is relative(and I'm not even talking about that), but those are some pretty terrible sounding bloops and beeps.

Too stubborn to admit you're wrong, huh?

You'd fit right in at PPR...

[lazygecko]

I could just as easily simplify all the Mario games into just jumping on shit if I wanted to. Anyway, I find it stupid bickering about which was better and I found both of them to be amazing fun back in the day. The Sonic games had sophisticated physics for a platformer, which allowed for a blend of speed, momentum, platforming and psuedo-pinball gameplay which is what made the games so special and fun. Not to mention the simultaneous 2 player.

So as for the sound, the Genesis had a YM2612 synthesizer (and an added SN76489 chip) and the SNES relied pretty much solely on sample playback, which turns it into an apples vs oranges debate. Unlike the SNES though most of the Genesis' best sounding titles fell under the radar and went by unnoticed by most gamers of the day.

And yeah, the sample cutoff is one thing that bothers me about the typical SNES sound. Since RAM limited the amount of sounds you could store for playback, they would often shorten down the samples in every way they could. Often sounds like drums or brass sections would sound sort of tiny and chopped because there's no audible release in them. Or, if you listen carefully to some of the voices in the SNES Street Fighter 2, you'll notice they've actually cut out many of the more subtle consonants to save as much space as possible.

[Cerrax]

It's honest question time.

What was so great about Sonic back in "the day" anyway?...No fireballs

I guess you never found the fire shield which allowed Sonic is shoot forward at his enemies while engulfed in flames.

no super leaf/cape

The magnet shield allowed Sonic to double jump

or cool acrobatics,

No cool acrobatics? Are your sure you're even talking about Sonic? Did you miss the literally thousands of springboards, ramps, loops, and other crazy obstacles in the games?

shitty genesis graphics and music

Sounds like you go to the Brown's School of Grey Graphics. Genesis games actually have more more vivid palettes than most SNES games. You haven't seen a blue sky and green grass until you've played Sonic. And while Mario games still used traditional sprites, Sonic games (and many other games) started using more realistic looking sprites (a trend popularized by Sonic and DKC).

And the music is not for everyone, but you are a fool if you consider it to be inferior. Both the Genesis and the SNES had cutting edge sound technologies built into the systems. FM was so new that many developers didn't really know how to use it yet. But it still had excellent music (as many have pointed out already).

Don't even get me started on the game play aspect. Mario (even the later titles until 64) featured some of the most linear gameplay in the platforming genre. Sonic games were all about exploration. There were so many paths, so many possibilities and hidden items. It was the kind of game you could have whole discussions about because everybody had a different experience with it. No to mention Sonic featured a lot more puzzle elements than most Mario games. Flipping switches, timed puzzles, collapsing floors, not mention bonus levels that required more than just the simple slot machine setup of almost all Mario games.

[Tex]

In fact, there are some soundtracks that I feel came off better on the Genesis than the SNES, such as Earthworm Jim, and TMNT: The Hyperstone Heist (which has the same soundtrack as TMNT IV). The synths of the Genesis give them a different, harder feel, and there's no sample cut off (which was present in a good number of SNES titles... and which bugged me a lot).

Pretty much. The SNES version of Earthworm Jim 2, for instance, has even more sample cut-offs in ROM emulation than in the actual SNES console. The music and sound effects are a lot better off with the Genesis version.

[KyleJCrb]

i get the distinct feeling malaki is just trolling us guys

[Nabeel Ansari]

i get the distinct feeling malaki is just trolling us guys

I get a different feeling, he's one of those "new gen" gamers who don't like older games cuz they aren't 3D and they don't have super HD storyline cutscenes with epic orchestrated music.

Don't even get me started on the game play aspect. Mario (even the later titles until 64) featured some of the most linear gameplay in the platforming genre. Sonic games were all about exploration. There were so many paths, so many possibilities and hidden items. It was the kind of game you could have whole discussions about because everybody had a different experience with it. No to mention Sonic featured a lot more puzzle elements than most Mario games. Flipping switches, timed puzzles, collapsing floors, not mention bonus levels that required more than just the simple slot machine setup of almost all Mario games.

If Sega created the new game based on this paragraph, I would give both Sega and you sir a million rings, and/or all seven chaos and/or super emeralds.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

i get the distinct feeling malaki is just trolling us guys

...I thought I was being clever about it.

[LuketheXjesse]

My love for Genesis and Sonic and FM Synthesis have blinded me yet again!

[Devyn]

I love the distinct sound of Sega's synthesizer. When there were games competing with those also released on the SNES, they sounded like crap in comparison (Street Fighter for example), but when it was used "correctly", you had great tunes that wouldn't sound as groovy on an SNES. The Sonic games are a good example. So are Ristar, Super Fantasy Zone and the Streets of Rage series. Streets of Rage was years ahead of its time musically.

It's all about taste really, as the original NES sound chip will always be my fave.

[Salluz]

I was talking about sound quality, not music quality. The sound chip on the Genesis for all intents and purposes was shit.

I thought that before, but it may have been the particular game. Like, Maximum Carnage's music sounded SA-WEET on SNES but worse on Genesis; however, I think that Genesis actually generated sound instead of just samples, which may have given it an advantage. On the other hand, some tracks on SNES were shitty, depending on the game. I may be wrong, but I always thought of SNES as better, but Genesis was good, depending on the game.

What was I missing from the classic games?

Oh lord, a lot. Well, parts of Sonic 2 annoyed me but it's not a bad game. You can even appreciate some of the aspects of the newer games by looking at the beginning. Like, I do like Sonic Adventure 2, but I can see the reason why I LOLed at the supposed seriousness of it. The soundtrack was excellent and the challenge was awesome, but again, artistically, the Sonic Team was starting to do too much.

Sonic 3

Gameplay: more interactive than a lot of games, even Mario. Now, the preference between Mario and Sonic lies in the appearance and feel of the game itself (which for some, Mario wins). The interaction is pretty different too.

Sonic's move were simple, but you could use your environment as well as the items. The difference with Mario was that the only attack/defense you had against enemies apart from weapons was jumping, and that only worked with some enemies; Sonic didn't have much wither but he could spin dash, somersault, jump and use that crappy-ass spinning air strike move that sux bawls.

Tails and Knuckles did the same, except that in place of that crappy-ass spinning air strike move that sux bawls, Tails could swim and fly (if Tails hit enemies below w/ his... tails, they'd get hit); Knuckles had more strength in place of jumping height; he glided and could climb.

Music: AHAHA! Whew! Well, the notes match and clash here and there (comparisons), but the main idea is to hear the swagger, even if there's clashing.

Carnival Nights Zone/Jam

Marble Garden Zone/Thriller

There are more, so just type in "Michael Jackson Sonic" in the query.

Super forms: I admit, they are ripoffs from Dragonball (Z). I'm sorry, their super forms beat Mario's star/invincibility/size increment by a mile. However, Tails' form is the best as well as the most unique. Reason is, for Sonic and Knuckles, all you needed were Chaos Emeralds (for Hyper forms you'd need Super Emeralds); for Tails you needed Chaos AND Super Emeralds to attain a higher form.

Despite opinions, the older Sonic games gave you more freedom with the super forms; in the latter games, it's all "Sawnik savez da day huray". I dug the Super Sonic/Shadow combo in Sonic Adventure 2 + Shadow's fight with Biolizard, but still: what if you could go through the game as Super Sonic?

Extra talk: To be honest, some things are better about Sonic's newer games while others are better about the older ones, but once you get to Sonic Heroes, Sonic becomes wack. Sonic went to Hell. Yes, straight to H-E-double hockey sticks in gasoline drawers.

I did beat Sonic Heroes, but Jesus, what'd they do? They went from Snowboarding and Grinding Sneakers to THIS SHIT? No... I enjoyed the first part, got a headache at the Chemical Plant and literally lost my sanity playing the spinball levels. I'll tell you, the best pinball simulation was in Sonic Spinball and Sonic Adventure 1. Sonic Heroes turned spinballing into a 3-D visual fuckup. Some of the levels such as Hang Castle and the Team Dark fight against Eggman were AWESOME, but the game execution... bad. And Metalsonic? What the fuck did they do to him? Sonic Team failed so hard.

[LuketheXjesse]

Salluz, Malaki admitted to trolling

[Salluz]

Salluz, Malaki admitted to trolling

Meh, I didn't care that much, lol. I just like to talk about Sonic.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Meh, I didn't care that much, lol. I just like to talk about Sonic.

Go ahead!

Show that troll who's boss.

[Sindra]

Meh, I didn't care that much, lol. I just like to talk about Sonic.

Personally, I enjoyed what you had to say, as it mimicked pretty much my entire feelings on the games. Good show.

[LuketheXjesse]

Well, since we're on the topic of old school sonic...

I'd have to say that my favorite is Sonic 3 & Knuckles (they're one game shut up), followed by 1, followed by 2.

EDIT: Actually, damn, I really can't decide when I think about it more. All three (four if you're a fag) are spectacular games...

[Atomicfog]

I think what made the original Sonic games entertaining was the music and sound effects. Like, half of the fun of those games was hitting stuff that made random boings and dings, and bouncy sounds. Try playing Sonic without sound -- it's not cool.

[Sindra]

Well, I think you could say that about alot of the classic oldschool games of that generation. It's personal preference, really. The Sonic games really made full use of the Genesis' sound engine above almost any other game on the system, and I have no problem saying that they easily rivaled the sound produced by the SNES. I think that's why we all love the music from those games in particular.

On a side-note...I love how this topic went on the tangent of why we loved the old Genesis Sonic games. (and consequently why this new one should really stick to the precedent set by those games)

[Nabeel Ansari]

Well, I think you could say that about alot of the classic oldschool games of that generation. It's personal preference, really. The Sonic games really made full use of the Genesis' sound engine above almost any other game on the system, and I have no problem saying that they easily rivaled the sound produced by the SNES. I think that's why we all love the music from those games in particular.

On a side-note...I love how this topic went on the tangent of why we loved the old Genesis Sonic games. (and consequently why this new one should really stick to the precedent set by those games)

And I quote the golden paragraph of this thread:

Don't even get me started on the game play aspect. Mario (even the later titles until 64) featured some of the most linear gameplay in the platforming genre. Sonic games were all about exploration. There were so many paths, so many possibilities and hidden items. It was the kind of game you could have whole discussions about because everybody had a different experience with it. No to mention Sonic featured a lot more puzzle elements than most Mario games. Flipping switches, timed puzzles, collapsing floors, not mention bonus levels that required more than just the simple slot machine setup of almost all Mario games.

Yep, if Sega does it the way Cerrax says, they'll have no problems. They'll get the profit, they'll get the players, they'll get the luxury of not being spammed with hate mail.