OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[Powerlord]

Restarted BLU a few moments ago because it wasn't accepting connections. It appears to be working correctly since restart, though.

[Nabeel Ansari]

ENTIRE SERVER IS BABY!!!

all caps

[RussellChamp]

Something's munching a lot of CPU processing power (or disk read/write) on the server right now (*coughmincraftservercough*), which is slowing down the game servers startup.

Whaaaaat? We have a Minecraft server? I'll have to check that out!

EDIT: For those like me who didn't know we had a Minecraft server, the details are at http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31614

[XeroZohar]

Ooh snap. Minecraft OCR server.

[Rambo]

I won't name names, but the person has been banned/reprimanded multiple times, so they are known to be a trouble maker

It doesn't really seem like the swearing issue I talked about is against the rules in particular. From all the times I can recollect, it is saying the f-word to someone that supposedly isn't doing the great job they are expected to be doing (ex: "Get on the f-ing cart", "BLU team is f-ing retarded" ect) It's also said in retaliation to questioning their sportsmanship, such as what I experienced recently which prompted me to make my post.

Such language and disrespect (from someone who many have witnessed resorting to dirty tricks and tactics and out-right abuse of glitches and bugs to cause performance issues to other users and to do anything possible for the sole purpose of them winning the game) is totally out of place for OCR, which is filled with many nice and considerate people. So many people on OCR are familiar with each other and doing such things shows complete lack of respect for others.

It could be that I'm just being overly sensitive on the matter. Some of the things I have noticed the person doing has made me really lose respect for them and so I am overly critical of anything they do.

For my part, the issue I have is not necessarily with the "f-word" (of course, I have issues when it is used along with other unsportsmanlike speech, but you can be a jackass equally well without ever using it). My real issue is the "r-word", i.e. "retarded", as a derogatory term toward anyone or anything. "Stupid" is okay. "Retarded" is not. I say this because people who really are retarded are not that way by choice and do not (necessarily) even know it. And they are fundamentally not bad people.

Do with it as you deem fit, but that is what I have to say on that matter.

--Ian.

Alright, as promised here are the rulings toward these above-mentioned issues:

Firstly to address Gman's inquiries.

From what I understand, you can be as ignorant toward other players as you want. You are allowed to abase and discourage them, so long as it doesn't involve excessive language. At this point I think it's safe to say that trolling is alright as well. (This might only apply if you have a reserve slot, so don't quote me) Swearing at other people might result in a kick or something, if it bothers the admin that's on at the time it occurs.

Regarding IJ's inquiries.

After a bit of discussion, the following is almost unanimous: You are allowed to call anyone you want retarded/gay a fag/faggot/retard so long as it's not in an offensive context. (Your guess is as good as mine) If you use it too much, you might get a warning. I think. Maybe. Be careful though because dropping an N-bomb is still an instant ban. Unlike every other derogatory term, this one is inherently offensive. (Do not ask me for the distinction)

As a side note, I have removed myself as an admin on the server. It may, or may not have to do with the pristine decisions above. I'll still be around the server now and then.

[ParanoidDrone]

To put in my own two cents on the matter, saying something like "What is this faggotry" won't make me bat an eye, mostly because it's a well-established expression that a) is not aimed at a specific person as a slur, removes said slur from its original meaning to the point that it's more or less lost completely and c) is really annoying to phrase it to remove the slur completely. Unless we have an overwhelming urge to change it to "What is this politically correct homosexuality?" So I guess what I'm trying to say is...context, people. It's important.

I'd also like to point out and apologize for my tendency to tune out goings-on in both text and voice chat that others may find objectionable.

[Kinslayer]

Well, guys, I may have some good news...my computer is finally beginning to act like it should again...after a few more test runs on some of my other games, I may be able to have it TF2 ready again by next week...I'll be back to epicly suck some more in no time!

[Bleck]

After a bit of discussion, the following is almost unanimous: You are allowed to call anyone you want retarded/gay a fag/faggot/retard so long as it's not in an offensive context. (Your guess is as good as mine) If you use it too much, you might get a warning. I think. Maybe. Be careful though because dropping an N-bomb is still an instant ban. Unlike every other derogatory term, this one is inherently offensive. (Do not ask me for the distinction)

As a side note, I have removed myself as an admin on the server. It may, or may not have to do with the pristine decisions above. I'll still be around the server now and then.

well I can't say I disagree with rambo's decision

[Mrs. Bark]

To put in my own two cents on the matter, saying something like "What is this faggotry" won't make me bat an eye, mostly because it's a well-established expression that a) is not aimed at a specific person as a slur, removes said slur from its original meaning to the point that it's more or less lost completely and c) is really annoying to phrase it to remove the slur completely. Unless we have an overwhelming urge to change it to "What is this politically correct homosexuality?" So I guess what I'm trying to say is...context, people. It's important.

I'd also like to point out and apologize for my tendency to tune out goings-on in both text and voice chat that others may find objectionable.

The problem with this, even with this "well-established" context, is that it still presents the concept that homosexuality is bad, wrong, or unnatural, and that gays are the root cause of the person's problem with the issue at hand, not crappy game physics, lag, shitty computers, or a lack of personal skill.

The fallacy here is the appeal to popularity. Just because everyone's doing it, and has done it for a period of time, does not make it right.

I am not a delicate, or particularily politically correct person. However, as a member of the LGBT commmunity, I can't say I'm pleased that it's ok to insult someone by sexuality... And I may not continue to play on the server, knowing that it's officially condoned, even in a supposedly less-offensive context.

[Bahamut]

The problem with this, even with this "well-established" context, is that it still presents the concept that homosexuality is bad, wrong, or unnatural, and that gays are the root cause of the person's problem with the issue at hand, not crappy game physics, lag, shitty computers, or a lack of personal skill.

The fallacy here is the appeal to popularity. Just because everyone's doing it, and has done it for a period of time, does not make it right.

I am not a delicate, or particularily politically correct person. However, as a member of the LGBT commmunity, I can't say I'm pleased that it's ok to insult someone by sexuality... And I may not continue to play on the server, knowing that it's officially condoned, even in a supposedly less-offensive context.

For the record, whenever I'm on I don't tolerate it and always immediately warn the offender to watch their language. If they escalate it or flout it then I kick/ban them.

[ParanoidDrone]

The problem with this, even with this "well-established" context, is that it still presents the concept that homosexuality is bad, wrong, or unnatural, and that gays are the root cause of the person's problem with the issue at hand, not crappy game physics, lag, shitty computers, or a lack of personal skill.

The fallacy here is the appeal to popularity. Just because everyone's doing it, and has done it for a period of time, does not make it right.

I am not a delicate, or particularily politically correct person. However, as a member of the LGBT commmunity, I can't say I'm pleased that it's ok to insult someone by sexuality... And I may not continue to play on the server, knowing that it's officially condoned, even in a supposedly less-offensive context.

TBH it's probably more a result of being desensitized to it. College tends to do that to a person. If it's any consolation, I can only think of one person who I'd really let get away with it without scrutiny. My personal philosophy is something along the lines of "Is anyone seriously offended by this? If no, ignore, otherwise take steps." See my previous note and apology for tuning out goings on in chat for why I may be completely oblivious to actual complaints about the issue.

I do understand where you're coming from, though.

[Dhsu]

ITT people don't realize that words can have multiple meanings.

"I feel pretty and witty and gay" does not mean Maria is homosexual.

"That is so gay" does not mean an event is sexually attracted to other events of the same gender and therefore bad because of its orientation.

[Mrs. Bark]

ITT people don't realize that words can have multiple meanings.

"I feel pretty and witty and gay" does not mean Maria is homosexual.

"That is so gay" does not mean an event likes other events of the same gender and that is bad.

So...tell me. Is it that you are saying something is very joyful, as a means of being derogatory towards it? Or is there some history of the word "gay" and its' usage in the english language that I am not aware of?

From http://www.etymonline.com:

Gay:

late 12c., "full of joy or mirth," from O.Fr. gai "gay, merry" (12c.); cf. O.Sp. gayo, Port. gaio, It. gajo. Ultimate origin disputed; perhaps from Frank. *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"), though not all etymologists accept this. Meaning "brilliant, showy" is from c.1300. OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat (gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt ["Tramping With Tramps," 1905] defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays, but the word evidently was not popularly felt in this sense until later (cf. the stage comedy "London Assurance" written 1841 and popular through early 20c., with its character Lady Gay Spanker, famously played by Mrs. Nisbett). The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back to 1630s. Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971.

See, to me...saying "This is gay" to mean "This is stupid/lame/bullshit/wrong", and it's no different than any other slur - it still comes down to the fact you're equating "gay" as any or all of those things. Chances are you're not saying that joy and merriness is negative.

[Dhsu]

That's my point. "Gay" didn't mean homosexual until at least 1951, and I can assure you plenty of people were none too happy about that either. It's 2010, and now it's taken another meaning. It's your choice whether or not to be offended by it. My gay friends have no problem with it.

[Mrs. Bark]

That's my point. "Gay" didn't mean homosexual until at least 1951, and I can assure you plenty of people were none too happy about that either. It's 2010, and now it's taken another meaning. It's your choice whether or not to be offended by it. My gay friends have no problem with it.

It's taken on a new usage, certainly. A new meaning, I strongly disagree with.

A word's historical usage will always provide context and nuance to the modern usage. Even if it has miraculously changed in definition to mean something radically different, as perhaps it has done once already between "merriment and joy" and "homosexual", there is always some sort of historical commentary in the background.

Let's assume there is a new meaning for gay. What's the new, official definition of the word, if now it does not refer to homosexuals or merriment?

Can you explain how you think the usage of gay to mean "stupid/lame/bullshit/wrong" developed? When did "gay" become a derogatory term, but completely separate from its' usage for "homosexual"?

It's your choice whether or not to be offended by it. My gay friends have no problem with it.

Funny...I've read the same statement so many times, as a defense against derogatory behaviors of varying kinds. It's easier to make it someone else's problem, than it is to think about what you're doing and possibly have to change, I guess.

Do you ever tell your friends "Stop being so gay?". Is it a usage or meaning you direct at them all the time, or is it (as I suspect) a word you may use in front of them occasionally, in a social setting where there are strangers to them or a very mixed crowd, not all of them friends?

If you don't use it towards them directly, try it. Or maybe you should ask your friends if they have a problem with it, in a setting where they're not going to feel threatened or unsafe for disagreeing with you. People swallow a lot of shit, trying to keep social interactions smooth and free of conflict - and gays have been on the wrong end of a lot of conflict, simply for being who they are.

Might avoid an argument, or a beating, but in the end it still tastes like shit. You may discover they're not as fine with it as you think they are.

[Rambo]

That's my point. "Gay" didn't mean homosexual until at least 1951, and I can assure you plenty of people were none too happy about that either. It's 2010, and now it's taken another meaning. It's your choice whether or not to be offended by it. My gay friends have no problem with it.

When the expression "That's so ghetto" became popular, ghetto was directly associated with poor, cheap, and minority filled slums. Because of this it is synonymous with "That's so poor/cheap/black/jewish".

When the expression "That's so gay" became popular, homosexuality was directly associated with bad and wrong. The term in that expression has always referenced homosexuality as a synonym for bad. There is no definition of gay that would have that expression make sense otherwise. What definition of gay are you referencing when you say that? Are going to try and convince me that "That's so filled with joy" is a negative thing?

Would you defend someone saying "That's so black" or "Don't be black" because maybe they mean paint on a pallet?

[bonzai!]

So I just came off of deviantART, where they changed the website to wear purple in remembrance of teens who have lost their lives to anti-LGBT bullying.

And in contrast, it's pretty sad to see the state of affairs here.

Having a community run TF2 server means we get to determine the kind of environment we want to have for our players. I think that environment should be non-discriminatory. Discrimination based on race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation shouldn't be ignored.

I don't want to have a debate with people about context or the definition of the word "gay." We all know that it is frequently used as an insult, and as such implies that homosexuality is wrong. I know you probably don't go through that thought process when you throw around the word, but that is still what you are implying with your use of it.

Choosing not to be offended by it, claiming to be desensitized to the word -- those are pretty big indicators of how LGBT-discrimination has become so accepted that we don't even bat an eyelash at it. And that's really sad.

So I'd really like to know if what Rambo posted earlier about the MOTD and our server rules is true.

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll try to keep this short. I've never been too good with debates.

Personal feelings aside, it's clear that we have a fair number of regulars who feel strongly towards the issue and think we need to take action. What sort of action is that? It's one thing to ask nicely to clean up one's language, but is this the sort of thing we need to clamp down on as hard as racism? By which I mean, racism warrants an instaban if the admin in question isn't feeling particularly generous. Do we want something similar for anti-GBT slurs?

[Mrs. Bark]

I'll try to keep this short. I've never been too good with debates.

Personal feelings aside, it's clear that we have a fair number of regulars who feel strongly towards the issue and think we need to take action. What sort of action is that? It's one thing to ask nicely to clean up one's language, but is this the sort of thing we need to clamp down on as hard as racism? By which I mean, racism warrants an instaban if the admin in question isn't feeling particularly generous. Do we want something similar for anti-GBT slurs?

It's still discrimination and abuse of a group of individuals simply on the basis that they're different in some way. It's not any different from any other kind of bigotry.

There shouldn't be room to use abusive or derogatory language towards anyone on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religious differences, on OCR or elsewhere.

[ParanoidDrone]

So...I assume that's a yes?

[Bahamut]

It's still discrimination and abuse of a group of individuals simply on the basis that they're different in some way. It's not any different from any other kind of bigotry.

There shouldn't be room to use abusive or derogatory language towards anyone on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religious differences, on OCR or elsewhere.

Well, I can tell you that plenty of abusive/derogatory language is used in the Marine Corps, but the attitude there is that if you can't handle it, you can't handle high stress combat situations - I digress though.

Regardless of how an admin might feel, we should be professional about this. No admin should be admining drastically different from another one.

That said, on the OCR TF2 server, we shouldn't be fostering such an environment. We are an inclusive community when it comes to different characteristics like this as we have LGBT in the broader OCR community since we are about the appreciation of video game music and rearrangements of it. Any adoption of policy contrary to this reflects bad on the site and its community, which is not the message we want to send.

[Vimk]

The rule against excessive swearing and hate speech has *never* changed. Condoning it is not a server policy and never was, so you can't really claim the server supports hate speech.

What this *actually* is, is just one person's opinion on how the rule should be enforced but it does stand to remind that we could always be enforcing the rule better. Procedure is to warn and ask to stop and if they refuse ban them, if you have any issue whatsoever with hate speech on the server speak the hell up *while it's still happening* and if an admin isn't on it's not like most of you aren't steam friends with at least one of us, so send a message.

[Tensei]

It's still discrimination and abuse of a group of individuals simply on the basis that they're different in some way. It's not any different from any other kind of bigotry.

There shouldn't be room to use abusive or derogatory language towards anyone on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religious differences, on OCR or elsewhere.

If you make a big issue out of it, it will always remain a big issue. Political correctness is self-defeating. The more derogatory slurs get thrown around, the more meaningless they become, which is GOOD. Do your part, call someone a faggot every day.

[Mrs. Bark]

If you make a big issue out of it, it will always remain a big issue. Political correctness is self-defeating. The more derogatory slurs get thrown around, the more meaningless they become, which is GOOD. Do your part, call someone a faggot every day.

I sense that in this instance YOU're doing the throwing. You're not having them thrown at you. Try it sometime - even just a couple weeks, day in day out, at least once. It sucks.

When someone's told you that words hurt them, don't fucking turn around and say "But words can't hurt you". If I hit you upside the head with a brick, and you say "It hurts, don't do that", should my response be to tell you to get over it, and hit you again? Maybe you'll eventually get used to it, but I'm willing to bet I'll crack your skull open first.

Children - literally CHILDREN - are killing themselves because their peers harass and abuse them for being gay. In some cases, they're not even - they're just children whose peers have decided they're different or don't fit in in some way, and they're using gay as a catch-all slur.

And I seriously hope you thought you were trolling.

[Tensei]

I sense that in this instance YOU're doing the throwing. You're not having them thrown at you. Try it sometime - even just a couple weeks, day in day out, at least once. It sucks.

When someone's told you that words hurt them, don't fucking turn around and say "But words can't hurt you". If I hit you upside the head with a brick, and you say "It hurts, don't do that", should my response be to tell you to get over it, and hit you again? Maybe you'll eventually get used to it, but I'm willing to bet I'll crack your skull open first.

Children - literally CHILDREN - are killing themselves because their peers harass and abuse them for being gay. In some cases, they're not even - they're just children whose peers have decided they're different or don't fit in in some way, and they're using gay as a catch-all slur.

And I seriously hope you thought you were trolling.

You *sense* something? You mean you make a whole range of assumptions about me based on a single forum post?

I'm not trolling, what I wrote is how I genuinely feel about derogatory slurs. The fact that we're even here discussing this gives the subject, in my opinion, too much weight and justification, when we could just move on with our lives, grow thicker skin, and continue to play the game without unnecessary drama.