OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[DarkeSword]

Moving sentries around really changes everything.

Although headshotting an Engie who just packed up his Level 3 is quite satisfying.

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm predicting that the Wrangler's shield will get nerfed, along with maybe an inability for a second Engineer to repair the Sentry while the shield's up. Someone did the math and a Level 3 Sentry needs 6 or 7 Stickies before it'll fall, while wrench hits restore an effective 315 HP.

Yes, kill the Engineer instead and take out the Sentry next, but I would not be surprised if the sheer amount of QQ leads Valve to nerf it.

Gunslinger's minisentries are laughably weak. They're not even a threat by themselves, which is arguably the point, but still.

[FireSlash]

class limits turned on for RED. Also repaired maplist and mapcycle files after steam crushed them under it's mighty fist

Mini sentries do less damage than the pistol, and they're very fragile

But the ability to drop them in a matter of seconds makes them quite useful for fungineering.

Also they seem to self repair rapidly while being built.

edit: Do we want to change the reserved slot behavior? Right now it shows 24/25 unless the server is full of reserves. However, if a non-reserve connects, he's promptly kicked. Kind of annoying.

The solution is to hide the reserved slot, but this means slot holders will need to connect via console when the server is full. (connect blu.ocrtf2.com)

THoughts?

[Bahamut]

when the class limits were switched back on midmap the entire server complained

I was just saying, the complaints were out there, and there's some legit points to them.

[atmuh]

and more people complained when they were turned off its very simple

[Bahamut]

Doesn't discount the existence & validity of the concerns and mean you should act like a jackass over them. That's pretty shitty behavior.

[atmuh]

just because you may think one side of an argument is "valid" doesnt mean that the other side is just as much if not more valid

[Bahamut]

just because you may think one side of an argument is "valid" doesnt mean that the other side is just as much if not more valid

Again, that doesn't excuse outright dismissing valid points. Sure, in the balance leaving no class limits is fine for most maps. But again, that doesn't dismiss valid points, and nor should they be treated as outright wrong points of views for some people. The total lack of civility is shitty.

[atmuh]

stop talking to me like youre my dad or something

youre basically saying that your opinion is "valid" or more or less right and the people that disagree's opinion is "invalid" which directly contradicts what you said http://ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=689796&postcount=1 there (which i dont agree with at all but thats another thing)

[Bahamut]

stop talking to me like youre my dad or something

youre basically saying that your opinion is "valid" or more or less right and the people that disagree's opinion is "invalid" which directly contradicts what you said http://ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=689796&postcount=1 there (which i dont agree with at all but thats another thing)

Not really, as from a point of view, how someone feels about something isn't necessarily wrong. For example, Powerlord (and some others) feel a lot of engies ruins certain maps - it was vocalized quite visibly on plr_highland for example last night. For them, the engies would ruin the map for them, which can most certainly being true without contradicting that being an engie is fun for another.

The main point I'm making though is that you're being unnecessarily aggressive to intentionally marginalize those who disagree with you...over fun with regards to an individual. Your meaning of fun isn't the same as anothers, do you not understand the concept of accepting that difference & respecting it?

I don't want to see any more of this in this thread. It is possible to discuss differences civilly, and if you can't do it, then don't talk.

[atmuh]

i dont see how im being aggressive at all

you just really dont understand how your argument goes both ways

youre saying that the opinions of people are that certain maps are ruined by a lot of engineers but so what no ones "ruining" anything

we had tons of engineers on that plr map and i as well as everyone else i was playing with was having a good time

we were laughing about it as it was quite funny (notice that "fun" is a part of that word) to all of us

youre talking as if im the only one who thinks it was a ton of fun last night with the hilarious team setups when it seemed to me that we were in the majority

but yeah you really did straight up contradict "[21:41] <+Bahamut|lappy> opinion cannot be right or wrong" with that post

[Bahamut]

I already addressed the opinion versus personal experience thing. A personal experience doesn't not automatically equate to an opinion - it turns into an opinion when you generalize that to everyone. For example, if someone says "I don't like [insert artist]" versus "This artist sucks" - the former would be true and the second an opinion.

I also did not say that most people did not have fun - I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I was just pointing out the ignored flipside from some people. I enjoyed my time last night as well, but am empathetic enough to consider & understand where the other people are coming from. It's not enough to do a wide ranging class limit, but there were certain maps where the experience of mass engies did differ from the norm of entertainment for most into a negative (the one map I cited stood out the most).

My role is simply to assess the balance of the server population's mood & craft an appropriate response to foster as healthy & positive of an environment as reasonably possible. Not taking into account all views would be a grave mistake - would you want your complaints ignored outright if other people are being entertained for example?

[FireSlash]

class limits turned on for RED. Also repaired maplist and mapcycle files after steam crushed them under it's mighty fist

Mini sentries do less damage than the pistol, and they're very fragile

But the ability to drop them in a matter of seconds makes them quite useful for fungineering.

Also they seem to self repair rapidly while being built.

edit: Do we want to change the reserved slot behavior? Right now it shows 24/25 unless the server is full of reserves. However, if a non-reserve connects, he's promptly kicked. Kind of annoying.

The solution is to hide the reserved slot, but this means slot holders will need to connect via console when the server is full. (connect blu.ocrtf2.com)

THoughts?

^ Still this

Also: Thunder Mountain has a problem in that offense can take more than 30 minutes. Do we want to just maxrounds 2?

And do we want to apply this to all A/D maps? Or just thunder mountain? Often we just end up RTVing off A/D maps at the third round anyway, but it could result in a short map play time if both teams roll

[SporkNinjaDraken]

on Payload maps... I would like an engineer cap but otherwise I'm fine with the ridiculous number of sentries. It just means I can go Soldier more effectively than normal lol

[ST-Turnip]

I think that we should hide the reserved slot, also since there's a way to make a button on the menu screen that will automatically direct you to whatever server you set it to via console.

Also, various whining about lack of an engi class limit of 1.

[ParanoidDrone]

^ Still this

Also: Thunder Mountain has a problem in that offense can take more than 30 minutes. Do we want to just maxrounds 2?

And do we want to apply this to all A/D maps? Or just thunder mountain? Often we just end up RTVing off A/D maps at the third round anyway, but it could result in a short map play time if both teams roll

I'd prefer maxrounds 2, personally. It'll probably get better as we grow used to the map, but for now it's probably a good idea.

[atmuh]

hiding the reserved slot is ok

[Bleck]

Not taking into account all views would be a grave mistake - would you want your complaints ignored outright if other people are being entertained for example?

in almost every case where I think something is irritating people tell me PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT DEAL WITH IT BLECK

:/ I mean seriously

[Vimk]

Why even argue about it, there are class restrictions in place on red so if you want to play with them on it's really simple to you know, just go to red. Better yet anyone else playing on red is probably like-minded so you don't even have to hear whining over limits.

[Powerlord]

Why even argue about it, there are class restrictions in place on red so if you want to play with them on it's really simple to you know, just go to red. Better yet anyone else playing on red is probably like-minded so you don't even have to hear whining over limits.

I see... so when I put those same restrictions on BLU instead of RED, that was bad, but now that they're on RED instead, it's OK?

[Vimk]

That was more because no one knew you were going to and everyone had been discussing it on irc. Fault there lies with us because we conveniently forgot to tell you the plan. But isn't this compromise fine? One server still has limits and both groups can play without overlap and can move on already.

[FireSlash]

Some people have voiced annoyance over mapvotes going up at bad times.

We have two options:

1) use mapchooser_extended.

pros: Sound alert before votes go out, votes don't use 1-3 keys

cons: no rtv/nominate. A similar behavior can be mimicked with playervotes.cfg but in a less intelligent fashion.

2) Go back to using the mapcycle.

Or we can just keep it how it is and deal with the pop up votes.

[ParanoidDrone]

Some people have voiced annoyance over mapvotes going up at bad times.

We have two options:

1) use mapchooser_extended.

pros: Sound alert before votes go out, votes don't use 1-3 keys

cons: no rtv/nominate. A similar behavior can be mimicked with playervotes.cfg but in a less intelligent fashion.

2) Go back to using the mapcycle.

Or we can just keep it how it is and deal with the pop up votes.

Once again I need to remind myself that I am in the minority of people who predominately use the scroll wheel to choose weapons, not the number keys.

Even so, I don't like the idea of removing RTV, since that would lock out the ability to move away from a bad map without admin intervention. So either leave it as is or go back to the mapcycle if it's getting that bad.

[Bahamut]

That was more because no one knew you were going to and everyone had been discussing it on irc. Fault there lies with us because we conveniently forgot to tell you the plan. But isn't this compromise fine? One server still has limits and both groups can play without overlap and can move on already.

Honestly, the solution probably would've been better the other way around, as with this setup, I see a good number of people just quit in frustration, while those who just want to play engie would find an alternate server to keep playing if it were the other way around, therefore filling both servers more reliably.

So after playing earlier, I saw quite a bit of frustration with certain teams with engies ruining maps for one team for two maps in a row. One was Turbine (yeah I know) - one team went normal classes, and one team was mostly engies with a few normal classes. One team naturally rolled the other, but even after entreaties from some on the other team, the engies still were as futile. It ended up in an rtv halfway through the map because the dynamic was so terrible.

The next map, Dustbowl, was surprisingly bad as well. Namely due to the engineers on offense not doing much and not caring either. The rest of the team decided it was nice to go predominantly spy & sniper for a while, although after the futility was exhibited people started to change classes slowly. Unequal teams probably made it worse as well. During that time I saw at least 6 people quit in frustration, with a few going to Red to try to start it up, although it never happened.

From what I can tell, it may not be completely the fault of there being a lack of an engie class limit, but it seems to exacerbate the dynamics quite a lot for those stuck with deadweight pubs trying to play engie or play terribly in general - in a normal situation, it might be easier to get a team scramble going with that, but the engie update may have obfuscated some perceptions of the dynamics. I'm not completely sure how to best solve this yet, perhaps I'll think up of something tomorrow.

[atmuh]

1) use mapchooser_extended.

pros: Sound alert before votes go out, votes don't use 1-3 keys

cons: no rtv/nominate. A similar behavior can be mimicked with playervotes.cfg but in a less intelligent fashion.

i may have figured out a way to eliminate this con

ill know for sure in a little bit