OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[WindStrike]

Now include custom terminator armor for FROGG.

That is way too frigin' awesome though.

And while we're at it...

[Nabeel Ansari]

The trick to Backstabbing Frogg is waiting for him to be engaged with someone else on your team, and never go for his medic first, unless they are really close to each other.

I usually just kill the guy who's being (EDIT: heal)ed and cloak run, i don't go for the medic unless he's not paying attention. (it's kinda hard to backstab a medic facing you with syringes ablazin)

[Vahn_Paktu]

USE THE CLOAK (AND DAGGER), LUKE.

Good job using the worst spy unlock there is. It makes bad spies worse and good spies shouldn't use it.

[Powerlord]

Good job using the worst spy unlock there is. It makes bad spies worse and good spies shouldn't use it.

The best spies use the original cloaking device.

The rest of us use the Cloak and Dagger or Dead Ringer.

[atmuh]

terrible spies (like myself) use the dead ringer because its an absolutely joke unlock that makes the class piss easy and laughably dumb

good (heh) spies use the original watch because when youre using that youre actually playing spy

people that wanna sit in enemy spawn and keep saying gotta move that gear up use the cloak and dagger

[Powerlord]

good (heh) spies use the original watch because when youre using that youre actually playing spy

No, the best spies use the original watch because it has the longest cloak time and you can pick up ammo boxes to extend that time.

[Nabeel Ansari]

No, the best spies use the original watch because it has the longest cloak time and you can pick up ammo boxes to extend that time.

I find the cloak and dagger useful because of an increased ability to escape. If you get found out and then hide in a place (standing perfectly still) where they wouldn't think to look, the last thing you need is your cloak running out because there are no ammo boxes around/not enough cloak to get to them. I can tell some hotshot is gonna say good spies don't get caught, but EVERYONE gets caught sometimes.

How do you think spies DIE? *smh*

[atmuh]

no the reason that terrible spies cant use the original watch is because people that use it actually have to pay attention and use good judgement as to when to actually stab someone instead of being able to just right click and leave no matter what

you have to actually care about what youre doing

good spies

no such thing since its really all luck

[Nabeel Ansari]

no the reason that terrible spies cant use the original watch is because people that use it actually have to pay attention and use good judgement as to when to actually stab someone instead of being able to just right click and leave no matter what

you have to actually care about what youre doing

Just because you use an easier cloaking device doesn't mean you're bad at the game, it just means you're not too focused on your ego and personal pride in being a better spy to actually use something that helps your team a little more. Not to say it's a bad thing to try and challenge yourself a little more, but making it easier on yourself certainly helps your team.

no such thing since its really all luck

I'll stop saying good spies when you stop saying terrible spies.

[Kenogu Labz]

No, the best spies use the original watch because it has the longest cloak time and you can pick up ammo boxes to extend that time.

While it may have the longest cloak, the ammo argument is invalid, since you *can* extend the time of other watches, though the Dead Ringer does have a lower benefit from picking up ammo, I believe.

[Powerlord]

While it may have the longest cloak, the ammo argument is invalid, since you *can* extend the time of other watches, though the Dead Ringer does have a lower benefit from picking up ammo, I believe.

The normal cloaking device gets 25%, 50%, and 100% cloak from small, medium, and large ammo boxes respectively.

The Dead Ringer gets 25%, 35%, and 35% from small, medium, and large ammo boxes respectively. And no, 35% twice is not a typo.

The Cloak and Dagger gets 0%, 0%, and 0% from small, medium, and large ammo boxes respectively.

[atmuh]

longest cloak means nothing as to which one is "better"

I'll stop saying good spies when you stop saying terrible spies.

just because a class takes some luck to be "good" at doesnt mean that its entirely easy to be terrible at it by uncloaking or whatever in really really dumb places

[Chili Con Carnage]

Good job using the worst spy unlock there is. It makes bad spies worse and good spies shouldn't use it.

C&D is good for the very beginning of a match when you're on defense.

[Powerlord]

C&D is good for the very beginning of a match when you're on defense.

Shhh, stop giving away our trade secrets.

[ParanoidDrone]

This sounds like the part where I put in my two cents.

The IW is the best overall watch as a consequence of being the Spy's only watch until his update. It's long cloak time and ability to charge with ammo make it ideal for covering long distances while cloaked without slowing down. It's best for a mobile Spy that doesn't like staying in one place for long.

The C&D is best when the enemy team is too consistently alert to do anything at your leisure -- camp an area until they let their guard down, do your thing, and get out and hide again. As long as you don't spend more time than necessary on the camping phase it's incredibly easy to get the enemy team riled up this way.

The DR shines the most when you're able to get behind the enemy but can't do much before you're killed. Sneak around, do whatever, feign death, redisguise, decloak, get a full charge, repeat. It's by far the most forgiving watch thanks to the 90% damage reduction, but a DR Spy MUST be visible on approach, or else they risk alerting their target with the hideous decloak sound. This can be exploited by shooting suspicious targets -- either they don't have the DR up and they die, or they do and you trigger it, forcing them to retreat and regroup. It's annoying but not deadly unless you get complacent.

tl;dr no watch is superior to the others in all ways

[Powerlord]

This sounds like the part where I put in my two cents.

The IW is the best overall watch as a consequence of being the Spy's only watch until his update. It's long cloak time and ability to charge with ammo make it ideal for covering long distances while cloaked without slowing down. It's best for a mobile Spy that doesn't like staying in one place for long.

The C&D is best when the enemy team is too consistently alert to do anything at your leisure -- camp an area until they let their guard down, do your thing, and get out and hide again. As long as you don't spend more time than necessary on the camping phase it's incredibly easy to get the enemy team riled up this way.

The DR shines the most when you're able to get behind the enemy but can't do much before you're killed. Sneak around, do whatever, feign death, redisguise, decloak, get a full charge, repeat. It's by far the most forgiving watch thanks to the 90% damage reduction, but a DR Spy MUST be visible on approach, or else they risk alerting their target with the hideous decloak sound. This can be exploited by shooting suspicious targets -- either they don't have the DR up and they die, or they do and you trigger it, forcing them to retreat and regroup. It's annoying but not deadly unless you get complacent.

tl;dr no watch is superior to the others in all ways

It should be noted that both the C&D and Dead Ringer run out in about 6.5 seconds as opposed to 9 seconds for the Invisibility Watch. Of course, the Invisibility Watch also takes considerably longer to recharge than the other two... unless you grab ammo boxes.

Of course, the ability to recharge using ammo boxes wasn't originally part of the game... it was introduced in the January 7, 2009 update, along with level 3 dispensers and teleporters, the ability to destroy demoman sticky bombs with bullets, the Medic HUD icons that show plusses over people who call for medic, and overheal particle effects.

[Necro]

I think you are all neglecting the best cloak in the game, the revolver. The revolver is the only cloak that can kill enemies just by pointing at them. Unfortunately, due to a coding error on Valve's part the revolver cloak is used with Mouse1 instead of Mouse2. But the revolver lasts longer than all the other cloaks and can recharge with ammo as well, easily making it the best cloak.

[Powerlord]

I think you are all neglecting the best cloak in the game, the revolver. The revolver is the only cloak that can kill enemies just by pointing at them. Unfortunately, due to a coding error on Valve's part the revolver cloak is used with Mouse1 instead of Mouse2. But the revolver lasts longer than all the other cloaks and can recharge with ammo as well, easily making it the best cloak.

Speaking as the person who held the Revolver global award the most since we started using the current stats system, no I haven't forgotten.

Although, I've been using the Ambassador more lately, so I lost the Revolver award.

[ParanoidDrone]

Of course, the ability to recharge using ammo boxes wasn't originally part of the game... it was introduced in the January 7, 2009 update, along with level 3 dispensers and teleporters, the ability to destroy demoman sticky bombs with bullets, the Medic HUD icons that show plusses over people who call for medic, and overheal particle effects.

I'm aware of this, although the update in question happened barely a couple of months after I got my own copy of TF2, so the vast majority of my experience is from post-update.

Actually, I've seen some people complain that they didn't like that update because it "took the skill out of cloak management" or somesuch. (None of you guys, btw.) You'd think they'd flock to the C&D since it plays almost exactly the same, except you have the luxury of being invisible while waiting for it to charge.

[RussellChamp]

Oh, hi guys. So I finally decided to put a map I was working on up on tf2maps. Its the very, very first map that I've made (so yes, atmuh, I know it sucks) so I'd appreciate some feedback.

It's a small CTF map based loosely on an old JK2 CTF map that I used to play a lot. Please also keep in mind that it's still just the alpha1 release so there's a still a lot of work I need to do on it.

Thanks! Link is here:

http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?p=184864#post184864

-Krowbar

[atmuh]

"took the skill out of cloak management"

there was next to no skill involved in spy to begin with and its no different now

[ParanoidDrone]

there was next to no skill involved in spy to begin with and its no different now

This argument irritates me, because it implies that there is no fundamental difference between a Spy that fails constantly and a Spy that manages to get stuff done consistently. If you can take two Spies and say that one is better than the other, then either the better Spy is absurdly lucky an absurd amount of the time, or it's his/her/its skill that is allowing them to outperform the lesser Spy, in which case Spy does take skill.

I will grant that Spy does not require traditional FPS skills such as twitch aiming, but if you want that then play Scout or Sniper.

[atmuh]

yes skill to me means actual aiming which means you have to practice the class to get good at it

anyone can play spy no matter how little theyve played the class because all you need is half a brain (yes i understand that there are plenty of tf2 players that dont have this) and youll have the common sense to do rather well as spy

its by far my least played class and i have absolutely no problem playing it at all if i ever decide to

theres a reason you dont see "pro" spies playing soldier sniper demo or scout that much

its because those are the classes in the game that require skill and practice to actually be good at

[Jaswald]

I still say Brushfire should record voiceclips to replace all the existing clips for the votenextmap plugin

QFE

why hasn't this happened yet?

[Powerlord]

QFE

why hasn't this happened yet?

1. Brushfire hasn't recorded the clips.

2. A large number of the clips are actually ones that already exist in the game.

3. None of us know how to write SourceMod plugins.