Advice and thoughts on Mixing

[eviljoker7075]

Hi all,

been away from music production for a while now but recently got back into it. In an attempt to better myself I have been trying really hard to pay attention to the mix of my songs (something I wasn't always great at sticking to.)

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone would like to take a listen to a couple opf short samples taken from a recent track I've been working on and comment on the mix?

I don't have any professional equipment so judging mixes is quite tricky, I'd really just like an outside opinion on whether I'm heading in the right direction or not.

Any comments are massively appreciated - here are the files:

http://www.newmusictransmission.com/sample1.mp3

http://www.newmusictransmission.com/sample2.mp3

Thanks

[Zephyr]

These sound really good to me.

[Rozovian]

Get a pair of decent headphones and some reference material to listen to and compare with. Listen to well mixed stuff a lot. Learn from it. Listen to crap mixed stuff. Learn from it too. Listen to your own stuff. Improve it.

[eviljoker7075]

Oh, I'd heard it was bad to mix using headphones - though can't remember the reason now!

would you have any recommendations on a set?

[Arcana]

Well, it's not optimal to mix on headphones, but it's better to mix on good headphones than it is to mix on cheap speakers.

Headphones will serve you fine until you get serious about music and are prepared to drop $400+ on a pair of studio monitors. And even then the headphones will still probably be useful.

Here is the thread about the topic:

What headphones or monitors (speakers) should I buy?

[dannthr]

I don't know what you're trying to achieve, but mixing is a matter of preference and effect--what are you going for?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Oh, I'd heard it was bad to mix using headphones - though can't remember the reason now!

The argument against headphones is usually that they don't allow the sort of stereo crossbleed you get listening to a mix in real space and change how you hear a mix.

HOWEVER, you get a LOT more for your money with headphones than with speakers, and you don't have to worry about acoustic treatment for your listening space. In short:

High-end studio monitors in an acoustically treated room > good headphones > cheap/consumer-grade monitors in an untreated room

And since a good pair of speakers costs around ten times as much as a good pair of headphones (no exaggeration), headphones are in my opinion the better choice for anybody who does not have $1K+ to throw around.

[Kanthos]

Another disadvantage of headphones is that they won't have the bass response of large monitors or monitors with a separate subwoofer. If you've spent a lot of time listening to similar reference mixes on your headphones, this won't be as much of a problem, since you'll be conditioned to hear how your headphones treat bass in similar material, but listening to your mix on other speakers, even commercial grade ones or a car CD player, will always help you confirm that you've mixed correctly.

[Arcana]

Usually what I try to do is simply to listen to your mix (and other mixes) on many different sets of equipment. Crappy laptop speakers, hi-fi home theatre systems, good headphones, bad headphones. If it makes sound, listen to some songs through it and get a sense of what your speakers do.

All of the headphones I've had colour the sound in different ways, but once I realised this I worked around them. I've had some headphones that were too bassy (actually most of the pairs I have are more bassy than my speakers but maybe that's because they're compensating for something).

And I respectfully disagree with Taucer's chart, I think that even entry-level studio monitors in an untreated room are better than mixing with headphones (but he's right, they will go for close to that $1000 point and I'm sure that treating your room makes a huge difference).

But, even though I have monitors, I'll still listen to my mix on tons of different speakers and headphone systems still, just to get a sense of what it sounds like in different situations.

[Rozovian]

There's no reason not to use headphones. A lot of listeners will be using crappy earplugphonethingies and listening from their ipods in the bus or on the street - not ideal listening environment, so the intricacies of your mixing will be lost on them. Stereo crossbleed is moot as far as they're concerned.

As far as coloring goes, multiple setups is the key to overcoming that, cuz any flat enough setup will cost you. A lot. When you have the opportunity, listen to your work as well as your reference mixes with other listening setups - car, computer speakers, friend's speakers, ipod earpluggythingies, TV... anything and everything. Listen to what your listeners will be using. You don't have to own it to listen through it.

Like I said, get some good mixes to compare to, analyse those - their volume (peak and rms), the frequency balance, the dryness of the sound, the instrument levels... There's so substitute for good ears, so practice yours. By using good reference materials and spectrum analyzers you'll see what you can't hear and know to compensate for it. I know I have to look at my spectrum view and eq as well as listen to make sure I don't overdo the bass (again).

[The Vagrance]

And I respectfully disagree with Taucer's chart, I think that even entry-level studio monitors in an untreated room are better than mixing with headphones (but he's right, they will go for close to that $1000 point and I'm sure that treating your room makes a huge difference).

But, even though I have monitors, I'll still listen to my mix on tons of different speakers and headphone systems still, just to get a sense of what it sounds like in different situations.

Bang on. Headphones aren't terrible for mixing but a decent set of monitors, even in a less than ideal monitoring situation, can give a much clearer "view" of what's going on. Of course, this is just a personal view, but there is a reason why most artists have some kind of monitoring set-up.

[SnappleMan]

You can mix on anything if you learn how those mixes will translate to other systems.

My rules of mixing are:

1. Make sure everything is clear.

2. Make sure nothing is fighting for attention.

3. Make everything punchy and dynamic.

But depending on my mood or what is asked of me, I'll completely break those rules and do something completely "wrong" for the sake of style and feeling. So there really are no rules, as long as nothing is clipping or giving people headaches, you're good.

[Arcana]

Also it sounds like weird advice to give, but if you're mixing, make sure you experiment with different volume settings (of your actual hardware amp or whatever). While your mix should never clip, it's going to sound different if someone listens to it on their home stereo with Volume 1 vs Volume 10.

I personally have a tendency to make everything sound loud in my song and then having to adjust levels later to avoid clipping. It feels that this could be easily avoided by simply turning up the volume on my speakers before starting.

Also I heard (from the manual of my Mackie monitors of all things) that if you do have to choose a volume to mix at, do it at low volumes since if your mix is going to sound bad chances are it'll be when the volume's turned down. I don't know how accurate this advice is though. Any comments?

[SnappleMan]

Low volume is something I always test my mix at. That's when you really hear what disappears and what's overpowering in the mix.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Bang on. Headphones aren't terrible for mixing but a decent set of monitors, even in a less than ideal monitoring situation, can give a much clearer "view" of what's going on. Of course, this is just a personal view, but there is a reason why most artists have some kind of monitoring set-up.

I disagree. This isn't always the case. In fact, since I moved, my studio monitors are less clear than my headphones because the room. My monitors are trapped in a corner, and thus, I have a lot of sound reflections coming off both the walls, and I get a *very* inaccurate bass response due to phasing and muddiness. While I agree that in an ideal situation, you would be using monitors instead of headphones, when using monitors, your room matters *as much* as the monitors you're using.

[SnappleMan]

I disagree. This isn't always the case. In fact, since I moved, my studio monitors are less clear than my headphones because the room. My monitors are trapped in a corner, and thus, I have a lot of sound reflections coming off both the walls, and I get a *very* inaccurate bass response due to phasing and muddiness. While I agree that in an ideal situation, you would be using monitors instead of headphones, when using monitors, your room matters *as much* as the monitors you're using.

I call bullshit. The monitors are always more important than the room since any room can be optimized with a basic treatment. Shitty monitors will always give you a poor response.

The only time I'll agree is when you're talking about full scale mastering, in that case pretty much everything has to be finely tuned to get good results.

[Kidd Cabbage]

1) "a decent set of monitors, even in a less than ideal monitoring situation, can give a much clearer "view" of what's going on." Less than ideal meaning an untreated room. The whole point was that his room is shitty, and untreated.

2) Acoustic traps plenty of the time cost more than the actual monitors.

3) Acoustic panels and traps can't fix everything. They'll help, sure, but when my right speaker has two walls a foot away on each side, panels don't fix it to the point that it is more accurate than cans.

[SnappleMan]

Even an "untreated" room can sound great if you know how to position the monitors, again, bullshit.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Bullshit on your bullshit. I have a bedroom in a house and that's where everything I have goes, including music. I have to find a place for both my desk and my bed, while keeping in mind that one wall is mostly covered by a closet and the other has a door in the middle. This leaves the *only* spot for my workstation in a corner with less than a foot from two walls.

I'll leave this for comparison:

This guy has carpeted floors - I have wood. He has more space from the wall than I can afford. And he has a far wider room than I have. All this considered, his kick drum still resonates almost twice as long without treatment in the exact same positioning. On more resonant things, like a bass guitar, all these added reflections not only clutter the sounds coming into your ears, but also cause very bad phasing issues with the original signals, completely distorting your perception of the mix, especially in the low end. Absolutely no way is hearing thrice the signal bounced back at you more accurate than a set of headphones with absolutely no reflections. So stop bullshitting out your mouth before I cram my dick in it.

[Cyril the Wolf]

Come on now.

A treated room would be needed to RECORD, tracking, drums/acoustic guitar.

If you have an amp to record with a mic, just put a blanket on them... you'll save hundreds $

you don't need that at all to mix LOL.

Flip your speakers/monitors on the side and level them at your ears height.

Picture a triangle.. speakers 3-4 feet from you and them 5-6 away from each other, point the sound at you, and you're in a pretty fucken decent business... if you have a sub then you are.

there's always a way to organise yourself no matter how your setup is.

Well I can't get my monitors QUITE 5 feet apart, but damn that made a hell of a difference. Thanks! Now all I gotta do is put them on stilts so I can actually sit up in my damn chair.

oh yea, and I have a sub. Sexy.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Come on now.

A treated room would be needed to RECORD, tracking, drums/acoustic guitar.

If you have an amp to record with a mic, just put a blanket on them... you'll save hundreds $

you don't need that at all to mix LOL.

Flip your speakers/monitors on the side and level them at your ears height.

Picture a triangle.. speakers 3-4 feet from you and them 5-6 away from each other, point the sound at you, and you're in a pretty fucken decent business... if you have a sub then you are.

there's always a way to organise yourself no matter how your setup is.

Uh, yup. Shoot.

Do you know how sound works?

[Frederic Petitpas]

[........]

[Yoozer]

Come on now.

A treated room would be needed to RECORD, tracking, drums/acoustic guitar.

Acoustics and room modes can and do very much influence what you're hearing.

Blankets are not going to solve that, though DIY can save you craptons of money. Bass traps, corner traps, etc.

If you have an amp to record with a mic, just put a blanket on them... you'll save hundreds $

If that solved everything, you'd better believe that Abbey Road was filled with blankets. While spending fortunes on magic Auralex foam is not feasible, properly treating your room and calculating how much and where isn't rocket science and doesn't require a second mortgage. It's just not an option if you're renting or still living with the old folks.

Flip your speakers/monitors on the side and level them at your ears height.

That causes the tweeters to be closer to your ears, which means that the high frequency range will arrive earlier. Don't do this unless the manufacturer explicitly recommends it.

[dannthr]

Room nodes are serious and if you're mixing, so are early reflection points.