VGM Rap (or vulgar rap-hate) thread (split from MM4 'Get a Weapon Weapon' reviews)

[RDX]

Honestly guys, it's possible to not like something that just so happens to be profane for reasons other than the presence of oh-so-evil cuss words.

ahem

the whole stupidity of this argument is that both sides are taking it to an extreme. some of us who hate that rap song more or less stalk the creators telling them how much it sucks, and some of those who like it are totally into generalizing and making straw man arguments.

FOR EXAMPLE. every time this subject gets brought up, i always say what i said in the quote. and then everyone ignores me. then some random nub says something that could be construed as being hate for vulgarity and wanting things to be good and holy, and you guys love that. you rip the kid to shreds.

[JackKieser]

ahem

the whole stupidity of this argument is that both sides are taking it to an extreme. some of us who hate that rap song more or less stalk the creators telling them how much it sucks, and some of those who like it are totally into generalizing and making straw man arguments.

FOR EXAMPLE. every time this subject gets brought up, i always say what i said in the quote. and then everyone ignores me. then some random nub says something that could be construed as being hate for vulgarity and wanting things to be good and holy, and you guys love that. you rip the kid to shreds.

I would assume that people ignore you because while your message may be a very nice, Pleasantville, positive worldview (one I commend, BTW), it doesn't actually add anything to the PRACTICAL discussion. As was said a few pages back, this is a DISCUSSION THREAD in a DISCUSSION FORUM about a topic that we'd like to DISCUSS. People who say, essentially, "this shouldn't be discussed" should be ignored.

Also, to all those saying, "Art is art, man. *takes a puff* It is what it is. Don't question it. Just take it in. *takes another puff*", that's also not meaningful to the discussion, either. "Art is art" is an argument I tore to shreds last page. Besides, the issue isn't whether art should be allowed to do A, B, or C, because art can do whatever the hell it wants to do.

The issue is, should people be allowed, legally or socially, to do whatever they damn well please just by invoking the "art card"? Should you be able to say, show, or do anything you want with the protection that being art affords if you, when all of the BS, PR, and lies are stripped away, are creating something that isn't artistic or isn't intended to be artistic?

Essentially, should people be allowed to do socially harming things under the "guise" of performing "art"? Because free speech is great and all, but remember, we still can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Public and social well-being is still a valid reason to restrict free speech.

[The Vagrance]

Essentially, should people be allowed to do socially harming things under the "guise" of performing "art"? Because free speech is great and all, but remember, we still can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Public and social well-being is still a valid reason to restrict free speech.

If we got rid of cursing and talking about drugs in rap music, that wouldn't make it go away, it would instead just make for tamer, faker music. I need grit in my music, I want to hear something rough sometimes, and if allowing a random hooligan to curse for no reason is the price to pay for songs like

to exist then I'm totally fine with that.

The issue is, should people be allowed, legally or socially, to do whatever they damn well please just by invoking the "art card"? Should you be able to say, show, or do anything you want with the protection that being art affords if you, when all of the BS, PR, and lies are stripped away, are creating something that isn't artistic or isn't intended to be artistic?

Art should be allowed to do anything under the guise of art except for activities that are illegal otherwise, which is how art is treated now. That's why artforms such as graffiti (which at its core MUST be done on other people's property) are illegal, because it falls under vandalism. Rap isn't doing anything illegal, talking about what they talk about isn't illegal because, frankly, a lot of the shit they talk about is exaggerated.

Also, I have yet to see you present evidence for cursing in music leading to more crime, in fact the only evidence you've provided so far is that people who view pornography often overestimate the frequency of certain sexual acts (which honestly I don't see much of a downside to).

[LuketheXjesse]

Modern rap serves it's purpose. A very noble purpose, at that. When I'm out, grinding on some girl, I need something with a LOT of bass, because bass is holding the rhythm to the song, and if I'm as drunk as I should be then I'm gonna need all the help I can get.. I need something that's repetitive as SHIT

I'd take this route far before rap, for that.

[The Coop]

Cussing. Swearing. Offensive language. Dirty words.

...

I love them. Great fun at parties, and it has long lasting effects on kids who never heard such words. It just gives you that warm fuzzy feeling to know that as little Timmy is tucked into bed, he's asking his Mommy just what a Mongolian Cluster Fuck is, why Lil' Kim is trying to get her cat sucked on, and if he could suck Fluffy tomorrow to see if it's fun.

[Damashii!!]

I'd take this route far before rap, for that.

I'd take that route too, but it's a road less traveled nowadays. much much much MUCH less traveled nowadays; at least where I'm from.

and if allowing a random hooligan to curse for no reason is the price to pay for songs like

to exist then I'm totally fine with that.

I'm willing to pay that price too (especially since that song is hella tight and it wouldn't have the same meaning if it was "Screw you, go and grab some poop") but sometimes I'm ashamed of paying that price when some rappers take the easy/lazy route of using the typical "bitch,shit,dick" rhymes (From the top of my head Kanye's verse in "Go Hard" and basically all of Soulja Boy's freestyles come to mind).

And yeah, I'm about as tired of the "art card" as I am with the "race card." It's waaaay too overused for just about anything and almost always in the wrong way. If you're going to drop irrelevant f-bombs all over the place [or release "soothing waters" and "clean" mellow, Kirby's Dreamland optimistic beats] then go ahead and embrace your opinion because everyone is entitled to it; but saying that profound profanity in any particular song is "for the sake of art/free-speech" comes across to my ears as saying that smashing my video game console after losing a boss fight is "for the sake of consumer review."

seriously though: is somebody going to work on the Kirby Rap song? I'm actually looking forward to that.

[RDX]

I would assume that people ignore you because while your message may be a very nice, Pleasantville, positive worldview (one I commend, BTW), it doesn't actually add anything to the PRACTICAL discussion. As was said a few pages back, this is a DISCUSSION THREAD in a DISCUSSION FORUM about a topic that we'd like to DISCUSS. People who say, essentially, "this shouldn't be discussed" should be ignored.

What the hell? I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's entirely possible to not like something that happens to be vulgar for entirely different reasons. Going back to the ffiv rap, i didn't think it was witty, the lyrics were sloppy and careless. Most people who didn't like the song felt that way. Yet for some bizarre reason those who DID like it acted like we were all offended by the bad words.

[DarkeSword]

I'm willing to pay that price too (especially since that song is hella tight and it wouldn't have the same meaning if it was "Screw you, go and grab some poop")

Have you heard the "radio" version? He sings "forget you" instead of "fuck you." It completely destroys the song.

[DiggiDis]

C major .. D major .. F major .. C major .. (or A minor whatever pleases you)

But don't curse when you sing to it

[JackKieser]

If we got rid of cursing and talking about drugs in rap music, that wouldn't make it go away, it would instead just make for tamer, faker music. I need grit in my music, I want to hear something rough sometimes, and if allowing a random hooligan to curse for no reason is the price to pay for songs like

to exist then I'm totally fine with that.

First of all, you're focusing too much on the cursing. As I said in previous posts, hearing or saying "fuck" every now and again doesn't make you a serial killer or anything. The problem I'm trying to address is the sexism, misogyny, anti-establishment philosophies, and drug use. Say whatever you want about indy rap, because I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about mainstream rap songs that not only profess a love of but insist a near fanatical devotion to:

*rampant sex, sometimes inferring that it would be done against, to some small degree, the woman's choosing

*the violent murder of police officers or other public or government officials

*either a desire to do large amounts of highly illegal substances, or a worldview that espouses the acquisition and use of illegal substances in large quantities

Rape, the killing of cops, and doing illegal drugs IS against the law, and many mainstream rap songs not only say that the artist himself does any of those things, but implies that those who also do those things is just as awesome/badass as the artist himself. Say what you will, but that's encouraging people to do illegal things.

Art should be allowed to do anything under the guise of art except for activities that are illegal otherwise, which is how art is treated now. That's why artforms such as graffiti (which at its core MUST be done on other people's property) are illegal, because it falls under vandalism.

I'm with you so far. Just letting you know.

Rap isn't doing anything illegal, talking about what they talk about isn't illegal because, frankly, a lot of the shit they talk about is exaggerated.

Ok, here's where I have beef. Talking about fire isn't illegal, is it? No, it's not. Talking in a theater isn't illegal, either. Simply talking about fire in a crowded theater isn't even illegal... but yelling about it at the top of your lungs is. Why is that? Because people, especially crowds, get easily confused or mislead. Yell something like that, and SOMEONE is bound to think that there is an actual fire, and a panic will ensue. Thus, yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal, even though yelling about anything IS A CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED ACT.

Apply this to rap. Writing a song isn't illegal. Talking about drugs or murder isn't, either. But what happens when you start yelling that it's ok to (and sometimes, that you should go out of your way to) do as many illegal drugs as you can and kill police officers if they bother you? And what happens if the person doing the yelling is a respected music artist with millions of followers and a boatload of money? Someone who says he does those things and is also rich and successful?

What happens if you give that music to poor inner city kids who dropped out of school at 13 to join a gang, also because they heard gangs were the shit in a song?

What I think you aren't realizing is that, as in the case of a crowded theater, not everyone is a smart or analytical as you. If someone yells "FIRE!" in a theater you're in, you'll probably look around before you panic. Lots of people won't. Same with rap. You'll probably think, as you have, "Well, this is all probably blown out of proportion anyway. Besides, I know doing drugs and killing cops is bad." But I'd put 10$ on the line RIGHT THE FUCK NOW that many inner city kids without proper backgrounds or education won't do that. They'll see their parents doing it, their friends doing it, and hear their rapper role models saying to do it, and god damn it, they'll do it, whether "it" is killing, drugs, or whatever.

Again, what you seem to be missing is that what I'm trying to discuss is whether or not there are things that art should not be able to talk about. You can paint about the Holocaust, but should you be able to paint about it being RIGHT? You can write a book about terrorism, but should you be able to write a book telling people they should blow up government buildings?

And, you can write a song, but should you be able to write a song telling people to force sex on women, kill police officers at the slightest provocation, and do as many drugs as you can?

Also, I have yet to see you present evidence for cursing in music leading to more crime, in fact the only evidence you've provided so far is that people who view pornography often overestimate the frequency of certain sexual acts (which honestly I don't see much of a downside to).

Again, focusing too much on the cursing, dude. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to insinuate that media has an influence on people's thought processes.

[zykO]

well i certainly hope i'm not being ignored because i'm saying this discussion won't get anyone anywhere and is a fapfest. because that's what it is

but what are we really discussing here? are we complaining about cursing as a fundamentally bad thing? are we criticizing the music industry as a cash machine that encourages lazy but marketable music? are we discussing the social influence of popular music or any kind of media for that matter? are we really talking about art at all here or just using it to cop out of addressing the actual issue (whatever that is)?

or maybe we're just poppin off on all of em simultaneously

what i think bothers A-Ron the most (i did say "i think"... i have no idea what bothers A-Ron anymore) is that cursing is bad. it's not a respectful or decent way to communicate for a god-fearing individual. cursing is fundamentally wrong. whether in rap or not. is that what y'all are talking about? no? moving on.

the music industry has, especially now, become polarized. on one end, you have a very strong independent vibe, with all of your internet sensations and bedroom rockstars. for the past decade we've seen a movement away from having to "buy in" to the game in order to be heard. this community is a perfect example of this. the other polar end is the MACHINE. nothing wrong with music being produced and mass distributed as material that makes MONEY. doesn't mean it has to be bad or awful but it is definitely a product and it is constructed and designed as such. arguing that pop rap is this lazy, misogynist, dumb artform is probably true (oh noes the art card!) but still neither here nor there. rap as a genre is irrelevant to this conversation as been pointed out already... there are plenty of emcees out there who are beasts on a mic and can curse all they want (if we're not talking about the fundamental wrong of cursing, i'm assuming) because it is not used as a crutch nor out of laziness. so are we saying that all rap is bad? no? all pop music is fundamentally bad? no? moving on.

naturally, all music like all other media influence society in powerful ways. it has been this way for centuries, actually. we shape society by the messages we give it. rap about shootin niggas in the club may or may not inspire someone to actually do it but more importantly is that it also sort of desensitizes us into accepting its realism and spreading awareness of it even if we don't approve of it at all.

does that mean what we need is a social revolution? i mean, how else are you going to change the mindset of the people creating the media, the industry and business that distributes and proliferates the media and the consumers who eat it up because they like it? like Vagrance said, many people want the grit in their music or otherwise, we'd have a bunch of faker, lamer music. sadly, people are more interested hearing the grit far more than they are the message. that is proven the second you walk into any club from LA to NY.

furthermore it's wrong to have the government intervene with any sort of expression or we'd eliminate a fundamental truth of being american so making any of this illegal would be a massive error and will never happen. so if it shouldn't be regulated and it can't be stopped without a serious cultural revolution, then what's the solution? because frankly discussing this without the hope of reaching an end is a FAPFEST. it's like art for art's sake lol

and i apologize for discussing the art element. what we're talking about has nothing to do with art at all. if it did, there wouldnt be a need to discuss it as neither you nor i nor anybody on this earth can define limits to art or human expression. and we're not talking about cursing either. and we're not talking about rap and we're not talking about pop music.

instead we're talking about whether it is right to proliferate messages that are "bad" and the answer is no. it is not right.

[Mustin]

www.chicoray.net

[zykO]

www.chicoray.net

right? hehe

[The Vagrance]

I'm talking about mainstream rap songs that not only profess a love of but insist a near fanatical devotion to:

*rampant sex, sometimes inferring that it would be done against, to some small degree, the woman's choosing

*the violent murder of police officers or other public or government officials

*either a desire to do large amounts of highly illegal substances, or a worldview that espouses the acquisition and use of illegal substances in large quantities

Rape, the killing of cops, and doing illegal drugs IS against the law, and many mainstream rap songs not only say that the artist himself does any of those things, but implies that those who also do those things is just as awesome/badass as the artist himself. Say what you will, but that's encouraging people to do illegal things.

On the first part, you named Lil' Jon and 50 Cent, two people who haven't been popular for ~4 years now and even then most of the lyrics are about hot women they want to bang, which makes them slightly more straightforward than "I Wanna Hold Your Hand." Most popular rap songs are about fucking, bluntly, girls don't want to dance to a guy talking about how many cops he's killed and how many kilos he's dealt. Also I don't think in any of the cases its implied rape, they're just being very forward when hitting on women. The idea that they're trying to put out isn't "I'm gonna get my nut off however I can" but rather "You're hot and I'm gonna spit some game so that you'll come have sex with me, but that's all I'm looking for, sex."

As for drugs, most rap artists only talk about doing weed, which while it is illegal, is on the path to being legal once again and also isn't any more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes (I don't want to get too far down this path, I'm just saying). Most of the talk about crack/coke/harder drugs is about dealing them, which is a sad but very real thing that goes on in rougher neighborhoods and that the rappers have often been exposed to and thus they'll naturally rap about. One of the key rules about dealing is to not start doing coke/crack yourself, or else you'll get addicted and get into trouble.

Ok, here's where I have beef. Talking about fire isn't illegal, is it? No, it's not. Talking in a theater isn't illegal, either. Simply talking about fire in a crowded theater isn't even illegal... but yelling about it at the top of your lungs is. Why is that? Because people, especially crowds, get easily confused or mislead. Yell something like that, and SOMEONE is bound to think that there is an actual fire, and a panic will ensue. Thus, yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal, even though yelling about anything IS A CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED ACT.

Apply this to rap. Writing a song isn't illegal. Talking about drugs or murder isn't, either. But what happens when you start yelling that it's ok to (and sometimes, that you should go out of your way to) do as many illegal drugs as you can and kill police officers if they bother you? And what happens if the person doing the yelling is a respected music artist with millions of followers and a boatload of money? Someone who says he does those things and is also rich and successful?

Stop using the example of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater because you're losing sight of context (and also I personally disagree with any restriction of free speech). When was the last time you saw something on TV and thought that it was real? In a movie? What makes music any different? The difference between yelling fire in a crowded theater and this is that yelling fire is meant to cause disruption, and everyone in the theater is immediately subjected to it. With music you have the option of turning it off or changing the radio station. Also yelling fire in a theater isn't recognized as a performance, while music is.

In addition, what makes "Folsom Prison Blues" any better than rap music, or any other song that fits your description but isn't rap? Also, out of curiosity how much rap do you actually listen to?

What happens if you give that music to poor inner city kids who dropped out of school at 13 to join a gang, also because they heard gangs were the shit in a song?

First off you can't drop out of school at 13, and second their parents should be less shitty.

What I think you aren't realizing is that, as in the case of a crowded theater, not everyone is a smart or analytical as you. If someone yells "FIRE!" in a theater you're in, you'll probably look around before you panic. Lots of people won't. Same with rap. You'll probably think, as you have, "Well, this is all probably blown out of proportion anyway. Besides, I know doing drugs and killing cops is bad." But I'd put 10$ on the line RIGHT THE FUCK NOW that many inner city kids without proper backgrounds or education won't do that. They'll see their parents doing it, their friends doing it, and hear their rapper role models saying to do it, and god damn it, they'll do it, whether "it" is killing, drugs, or whatever.

Then the problem isn't the rappers, its the kids' parents and friends. You can't ban/restrict things because some dumbass in an unfortunate situation will misuse it. You're getting too caught up in "what if" scenarios and not paying attention to the fact that gangster rap isn't intended for children.

Again, what you seem to be missing is that what I'm trying to discuss is whether or not there are things that art should not be able to talk about. You can paint about the Holocaust, but should you be able to paint about it being RIGHT? You can write a book about terrorism, but should you be able to write a book telling people they should blow up government buildings?

And, you can write a song, but should you be able to write a song telling people to force sex on women, kill police officers at the slightest provocation, and do as many drugs as you can?

Yep, all of those things should be allowed. The problem with free speech is some people are assholes and speak freely, but the beauty of it is that I can call them assholes and everything is fine.

Again, focusing too much on the cursing, dude. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to insinuate that media has an influence on people's thought processes.

No, not at all, but the media isn't some giant monolith that is uncontrollable. People run the media and ultimately it all falls down to the will of the public and their money. If they want to hear a song about shaking their ass, then its their god-given right to hear a song about shaking their ass.

[zykO]

No, not at all, but the media isn't some giant monolith that is uncontrollable. People run the media and ultimately it all falls down to the will of the public and their money. If they want to hear a song about shaking their ass, then its their god-given right to hear a song about shaking their ass.

ding ding ding!

[JackKieser]

furthermore it's wrong to have the government intervene with any sort of expression or we'd eliminate a fundamental truth of being american so making any of this illegal would be a massive error and will never happen. so if it shouldn't be regulated and it can't be stopped without a serious cultural revolution, then what's the solution? because frankly discussing this without the hope of reaching an end is a FAPFEST. it's like art for art's sake lol

Actually, having government intervention in free speech is not unorthodox. Aside from the "fire" example I've used previously, one cannot, for example, hold a rally and say that he or others will/should lynch some black guy. That's hate speech, and hate speech is illegal. Porn is expression, and it is limited and regulated heavily. I think you're taking a very idealistic view of what "freedom of speech" means, one that I will address while I pick at The Vagrance's post below.

On the first part, you named Lil' Jon and 50 Cent, two people who haven't been popular for ~4 years now and even then most of the lyrics are about hot women they want to bang, which makes them slightly more straightforward than "I Wanna Hold Your Hand."

Again, it doesn't matter who I'm referencing. They are rappers, and they aren't even older than a decade; this is still recent as far as history is concerned.

Most popular rap songs are about fucking, bluntly, girls don't want to dance to a guy talking about how many cops he's killed and how many kilos he's dealt. Also I don't think in any of the cases its implied rape, they're just being very forward when hitting on women. The idea that they're trying to put out isn't "I'm gonna get my nut off however I can" but rather "You're hot and I'm gonna spit some game so that you'll come have sex with me, but that's all I'm looking for, sex."

You're assuming that the only rap music listened to is in clubs. While I'm sure the top 1 or 2 songs are listened to in clubs as dance aids, that still means there are 9-14 other songs per album that probably AREN'T listened to expressly for dancing. And I'm willing to bet most of them deal with drugs and murder in a positive light. I'll expand in a moment.

As for drugs, most rap artists only talk about doing weed, which while it is illegal, is on the path to being legal once again and also isn't any more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes (I don't want to get too far down this path, I'm just saying). Most of the talk about crack/coke/harder drugs is about dealing them, which is a sad but very real thing that goes on in rougher neighborhoods and that the rappers have often been exposed to and thus they'll naturally rap about. One of the key rules about dealing is to not start doing coke/crack yourself, or else you'll get addicted and get into trouble.

I did I basic Google search just before writing this post, and found an article listing rap songs (specifically) that deal with drugs, positively or not (I didn't have time to search through every song's lyrics). This article was posted at the end of 2009. Want to know how many songs deal with drugs, NOT including weed or alcohol?

In alphabetical order by song title

Cocaine

*"A Bird In The Hand" by Ice Cube

*"Addiction" by Kanye West

*"Baltimore Love Thing" by 50 Cent

*"Bakin' Soda Free" by Kokane

*"Cake" by Lloyd Banks

*"City Of Dope" by Too Short

*"Cocaina" by Busta Rhymes

*"Cocaine" by Project Pat

*"Cocaine" by UGK Feat. Rick Ross

*"Cocaine Dreams" by 50 Cent

*"Cot' Damn" by Clipse

*"Crack Attack" by Fat Joe

*"Crack Cocaine" by Cypress Hill

*"Da Blow" by Lil Jon

*"Dope Man" by Eazy-E

*"D.R.E.A.M." by Danny Diablo, The Transplants

*"Esham's Boomin'" by Esham

*"Everyone Nose" by N.E.R.D

*"Ghetto Dope" by Master P

*"Half on a Sack" by Three Six Mafia

*"Hickory Dickory" by 8Ball & MJG

*"I Can't Feel My Face" by Lil Wayne Feat. Juelz Santana

*"Money & The Powder" by Gangsta Boo

*"Mr. Ice Cream Man" by Master P

*"On Some Real Shit" by Daz Dillinger

*"Peace Pipe" by South Park Mexican

*"Powder" by Project Pat

*"Pure Cocaine" by Yo Gotti Feat. Gucci Mane and Young Cash

*"Rubber Band Me" by Project Pat

*"Slangin Rocks" by Project Pat featuring Gangsta Boo

*"We Got That" by Birdman

*"White Gurl" by E-40

*"Since Day One" by Esham

*"Yoca-Cola" by Esham

Ecstasy

*"Pillz" by Gucci Mane Feat. Mac Bree-Z

*"Purple Pills" by D12

*"Ecstasy" by Bone Thugs N Harmony

*"Extasy" by Ja Rule feat. Cadillac Tah, Black Child & Jayo Felony

*"Frisco Pills" by Mac Dre

*"Poppin Ecstasy" by Three 6 Mafia

*"Skittles(Pop A Pill)" by La Chat featuring Rap Hustlaz

*"Rollin On Ecstasy" by SPM feat. Lil Flip

*"Thizzle Dance" by Mac Dre

*"Pill Poppin" by Rick Ross feat. Brisco, Lil Wayne

*"XXX'ed" by J-Kwon feat Ebony Eyez & Petey Pablo

*"Pop Thizz like me" by Team knok

Heroin

*"I Know" by Jay-Z

*"Chasing The Dragon" by Ill Bill featuring Necro

*"Dope Fiend" by Ill Bill

*"Violent Memories" by House of Krazees

*"I'm Dope" by Mack 10

*"Baltimore Love Thing" by 50 Cent

LSD/Mushrooms/Hallucinogens

*"Acid" by Esham

*"Acid" by Lil Wyte

*"Mushrooms" by Mausberg

*"Shrooms" by Xzibit

*"My Fault" by Eminem

Multiple Drugs

*"Adrenaline Rush" by Twista

That's probably not even an exhaustive list, either. And that's not even the list that deals with murder and cop killing!

Oh, and by the way, rapping about how awesome it is being a drug DEALER is totally better than rapping about doing drugs. You know, because dealers only sell the drugs to the inner city kids who are getting badly influenced anyway.

Stop using the example of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater because you're losing sight of context (and also I personally disagree with any restriction of free speech). When was the last time you saw something on TV and thought that it was real? In a movie? What makes music any different?

We're not talking about me. We're talking about disillusioned inner city kids. Also, if you disagree with any restriction of free speech, that means you're A-OK with hate speech, too. Is that actually the case, or do you REALLY believe that certain kinds of "free speech" should be restricted for human rights / public safety concerns?

The difference between yelling fire in a crowded theater and this is that yelling fire is meant to cause disruption, and everyone in the theater is immediately subjected to it. With music you have the option of turning it off or changing the radio station. Also yelling fire in a theater isn't recognized as a performance, while music is.

So, are you then saying that, as long as what you're doing is a performance, you can do anything you want, no matter how publicly damaging it is or how many human rights violations you espouse? It's ok to say, for instance, that people should be able to be sold as slaves as long as you do it in a song, dance, or play? I mean, seriously tell people that they should capture their neighbor and sell him as a slave?

In addition, what makes "Folsom Prison Blues" any better than rap music, or any other song that fits your description but isn't rap? Also, out of curiosity how much rap do you actually listen to?

Interestingly enough, the lyrics of FPB don't actually talk about murder as though its a GOOD thing. Johnny Cash speaks in verse 2 as though he feels remorse for the murder, or it can be interpreted that way. I don't see how else other than in a positive light you can interpret the lyric:

"My gun is loaded with about enuff for your whole crew

1 shot kills u and the others die at the sight of you

your mangled body lying in a heap on the floor

Aint got anuff time to go say goodbye to your whore"

--Candy Rap (50 Cent/Eminem)

Also, I used to listen to a lot of rap back when it was mainly stuff like Run DMC and Grand Master Flash. Not so much anymore. 3 guesses why.

First off you can't drop out of school at 13, and second their parents should be less shitty.

You can drop out if you run away from home to join a gang, and yes the parents SHOULD be less shitty. But, again, try controlling a kid who is constantly high and/or owns a gun that he got illegally. There comes a point to where locking your kid up is the only option, and that's no option for a kid.

Then the problem isn't the rappers, its the kids' parents and friends. You can't ban/restrict things because some dumbass in an unfortunate situation will misuse it. You're getting too caught up in "what if" scenarios and not paying attention to the fact that gangster rap isn't intended for children.

You're right, it's intended for people between the ages of 16-25, if the way marketing campaigns work is to be believed. Those aret he people with the buying power. Either way, its irrelevant. We aren't talking about some Ted Kaczynski motherfucker here. This isn't a singular instance or a stray statistic. How many gangs are in NY? LA? The entire US?

Yep, all of those things should be allowed. The problem with free speech is some people are assholes and speak freely, but the beauty of it is that I can call them assholes and everything is fine.

That's all well and good, philosophically, but PRACTICALLY, you can't just call them assholes and have everything be fine. Try saying that to the victim's families of gang warfare, or the parents of some 17 year old inner city kid who thought it was fine to OD on crack. "Sorry, the society influencing your kid and telling him it was ok to shoot at police officers was just filled with assholes." You're right! That makes it ok! What was I thinking?

No, not at all, but the media isn't some giant monolith that is uncontrollable. People run the media and ultimately it all falls down to the will of the public and their money. If they want to hear a song about shaking their ass, then its their god-given right to hear a song about shaking their ass.

You're totally right. I mean, it's kind of like the banks and financial institutions, right? It's not like they are some giant monolith that is uncontrollable. People run the banks and ultimately it all falls to the will of the people. If they want their money invested in toxic assets that are proven beforehand to have devastating long term effects on the economy, then its their god-given right to put the entire country at risk in the process. After all, free market, right?

You know what your problem is here? You, and the people who think that everything should be protected regardless of circumstance or the situation at hand, have a broken idea of what it means to be free. I have free speech, which means I'm free to say whatever I want... as long as it doesn't infringe on other's rights or endanger people publicly. Also, I have the good sense and character to realize that just because you have a freedom, that doesn't mean that you should always exercise it. Do you know what the best definition of democracy that I've ever heard was?

Democracy is putting yourself in chains, and if you can't do it for yourself, your neighbor will do it for you.

It used to be legal to talk about lynching some nigger, and it used to be legal to own people as property, and it used to be legal to deny basic human rights to people because of gender, and it still is legal to deny basic human rights to people because of sexual preference. Plenty of stupid shit was and is legal. Times change. Rappers, particularly ones like those listed above, cannot put themselves in chains. They cannot stop promoting a gangster culture that things it's not only ok, but satisfactory to do or sell copious amounts of drugs and kill other people, sometimes for as little as having better lyrics than you. If they can't put themselves in the chains, I'm afraid it's up to the rest of us to do it for them.

[Ramaniscence]

tl;dr

It is at this point that I advise everyone to stop responding, even in a comical sense, as there is nothing more for anyone to get out of this post.

[JackKieser]

And why, exactly, is that? Because you don't have anything to add to the discussion? At least 3 people in this thread are having civilized, meaningful debate here. But, you're right. You don't think we should be discussing this, so I guess we should stop.

...O WAI--

[zykO]

Actually, having government intervention in free speech is not unorthodox. Aside from the "fire" example I've used previously, one cannot, for example, hold a rally and say that he or others will/should lynch some black guy. That's hate speech, and hate speech is illegal. Porn is expression, and it is limited and regulated heavily. I think you're taking a very idealistic view of what "freedom of speech" means, one that I will address while I pick at The Vagrance's post below.

no i'm not, that's precisely the point... that explicit lyrics in music, and in this case specifically gang related or violent lyrics in rap, are not the same as hate speech or porn. there's no practical way to be able to differentiate between the content of any of tupac's music and, say, 50 cent (i don't like that we're completely focusing on this chump but just for the sake of continuity)

on the surface, i'm sure one would surmise that they rap about the same things. but they really don't and tupac is widely considered one of the finest emcees to ever live mostly on account of his amazingly honest and revealing lyrics.

i've used this same verse in many a debate (including a couple here on ocr lol) but:

I hear the doctor standing over me screamin I can make it

Got a body full of bullet holes layin here naked

Still I, can't breathe, somethings evil in my IV

Cause everytime I breathe, I think they killin me

I'm having nightmares, homicidal fantasies

I wake up stranglin, danglin my bed sheets

I call the nurse cause it hurts, to reminisce

How did it come to this? I wish they didn't miss

Somebody help me, tell me where to go from here

Cause even Thugs cry, but do the Lord care?

Try to remember, but it hurts

I'm walkin through the cemetary talkin to the, dirt

I'd rather die like a man, than live like a coward

There's a ghetto up in Heaven and it's ours, Black Power

is what we scream as we dream in a paranoid state

And our fate, is a lifetime of hate

Dear Mama, can you save me? And fuck peace

Cause the streets got our babies, we gotta eat

No more hesitation each and every black male's trapped

And they wonder why we suicidal runnin round strapped

Mista, Po-lice, please try to see that it's

a million motherfuckers stressin just like me

Only God can judge me

is an excellent example of why it's impossible to ever really be able to weed out bad rap from good rap based on whether the lyrical content is too violent, too honest or too explicit unless we had some national lyric board like our judges panel here that would sit and sift through every potential track and determine, subjectively, whether it is good or not. "only god can change me" is a brilliant song with an incredibly transparent and honest message and while it doesn't tell young black kids to go shoot each other and do drugs, it certainly does draw light to the situation and even goes to explain it a little. the hood is a terrible place and it can do terrible things to those in it black, brown, yellow or white. sublime was testament to this too. their lyrics are in many ways also like rap lyrics... "40 oz to freedom" is not exactly the message you want your teenagers hearing and running out to buy a 40 right? and yet sublime was a great band known for their genuine lyrics

the problem with regulating any of it is that you'd have to somehow be able to say that this sheer honesty in music, something that is so rare and so delicious when heard is also something very bad. because it would be otherwise difficult to point out, consistently, why the lyrics to either of the afore mentioned songs are any different or better or less harmful than the standard money-stackin, ass-smackin pseudo-gang shit. and we'd lose a brilliant artist like eminem entirely who revels in intentionally abrasive topics and lyrics

i'm not saying that legal regulation is always bad but i think in this instance it definitely would be.

[JackKieser]

Ok, this is on my iPod touch, so bear with me. It's probably going to be shorter and less composed than my other posts.

First of all, you claim that it's difficult to differentiate between lyrics like those of the tupac song you posted and the 50 cent song I posted. I beg to differ. Both songs deal with violence (I presume gang violence), but tupac's deal with violence done to HIM, while 50 talks about violence he will commit. Big difference, because remember that we are talking about the light subject matter is presented in. It's hard to think that Tupac is talking about being shot as thouh it's a good thing due to his language, while it's rather easy to infer that 50 would be very pleased with his work after shooting and violently killing eminem.

You also claim that it's hard to restrict one without restricting the other, something else I disagree with... Kind of. While I think it would be possible with something as simple as a ratings board that has more ratings than 2 (which is how music is rated now: either ok or restricted), the movie industry rating system shows us how easily those systems can be corrupted by extremists. And thanks to the religious right, we can't just give the job to judges or gov't officials. I do, however, think that a restriction system more faceted than what we have now, with clear rulings, would work. All you'd have to do is say that there is a ban om music that promotes human rights violations (I'd say a death threat, fake or not, is a human rights violation; everyone has the right to their life, once born).

[Ramaniscence]

And why, exactly, is that? Because you don't have anything to add to the discussion? At least 3 people in this thread are having civilized, meaningful debate here. But, you're right. You don't think we should be discussing this, so I guess we should stop.

...O WAI--

No, because it's gotten to the point where 3 people go

Bad. Why.

Good. Why.

Bad. Why.

Good. Why.

And I'm PRETTY sure there's going to be very little consensus at this point. Just wasting time on the internet.

...O WAI--

[JackKieser]

You know... If you don't like it, you can, I don't know...

...not read the thread? Read another thread? If we didn't want to go back and forth, we wouldn't post. Maybe you should stop worrying about us, perhaps?

[Ramaniscence]

You know... If you don't like it, you can, I don't know...

...not read the thread? Read another thread? If we didn't want to go back and forth, we wouldn't post. Maybe you should stop worrying about us, perhaps?

It wasn't for me. It was for you. At the point where you are picking apart huge paragraphs and responding with 30 quotes and your own huge paragraphs, there's more time to be wasted than knowledge to be gained, BUT it's your time.

[JackKieser]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a philosophy major. Specifically, I study ethics. So, none of this is a waste of time. Thanks for caring, though...?

[RDX]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a philosophy major. Specifically, I study ethics. So, none of this is a waste of time. Thanks for caring, though...?

Who cares?