VGM Rap (or vulgar rap-hate) thread (split from MM4 'Get a Weapon Weapon' reviews)

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

This thread is hilariously bad. All your posts indicate that you're only interested in hearing out self-affirming points of view about a strawman for urban culture that really just sounds like a thinly-veiled attack against societal ills that are mainly pervasive among certain minority communities. Your posts reek of the white privilege mindset to me. Please don't bother expressing white guilt by getting all defensive over what I think your posts look like, just acknowledge that this is what I perceive.

Consider for a second that taking the mindset of having a blanket "zero-tolerance" policy against a largely heterogeneous group (mainstream rappers) who you claim to know 95% of despite making outdated references to rappers that aren't really mainstream anymore--this kind of thing really doesn't make you look like you're interested in learning anything you don't already agree with.

[DiggiDis]

Yo Jack .. Not to be a bitch ..

Stevie Ray Vaughan drank his cocaine mixed with whiskey for breakfast.

Eric Clapton was so fucked up he had to finish playing a concert laying on his back.

Whitney Houston .. Well we've seen/heard her lately.

John Fruciante .. Search for an interview when he left the Chili Peppers for a while. U'll shit bricks.

James Brown, Axel Rose, Chris Brown, Bobby Brown .. all examples of people hitting their wife/gf.

Keith Richards smuggling cocaine over the border.

Dude .. Don't just baggatalize groups easily as that.

Because like don't get me started on christians back in the day. They did shit back then, where the average 'violent' rapper would say .. Fuck me .. That shit is crazy..

Come on man .. Enough of this crap ..

[Benjamin Briggs]

this guy writes more words in 1 post than I do in 100

[Arek the Absolute]

jack is just writing posts to get attention

hes not budging because he wants people to argue with him so he can get some love

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I don't know about you guys, but that Will Smith and Jazzy Jeff are fucking ruining rap and music as we know it.

Ruining it.

[Benjamin Briggs]

parents just don't understand

[JackKieser]

So, threads here don't devolve into ad ad hominem attacks on Jack Kieser?

Ab56 - Talked about my "white guilt", not any of my actual points.

chthonic -Talked about the number of words in my posts, not any of my actual points.

Arek - Called me an attention whore, didn't talk about any of my actual points.

At least DiggiDis brought up a valid point. One I will respond to.

A ) Just because other people have done or said A, B, or C, that doesn't absolve rappers from it, nor does that give them an excuse to do it, too. It's wrong for anyone to do drugs or be violent. But my argument isn't based on individuals, it's based on culture. Rock, for instance, is no longer a culture built upon drugs the way it was 40 years ago.

B ) Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, my argument in this thread has been about a pervasive mindset towards violence and drugs, one that is conveyed positively by the artists. You will always be able to name drop people who do bad things. But, I dare you to prove that Stevie Ray, for instance, sang most of his songs about how awesome his cocaine was, and how others should do cocaine, too; most of his songs were about love. And I never heard James Brown sing about how good it was to hit his wife.

Even so, you assembled a motley crew of artists from different genres across nearly 40 years. Not only could twice the examples be found for rap artists from just the last decade, it'd all be from one genre (obviously). I think that's indicative of a more ingrained problem. Of course, other genres have had their rocky pasts, but rock, blues, R&B, all of them moved past those rocky pasts, and now they aren't wholly categorized by bad shit. In the 60's, you thought of rock and roll and automatically thought of drugs. Now, you don't. Because rock grew up and cleaned itself up.

I think it's rap's turn to mature itself.

C ) Don't bring up religion. Nothing will EVER come close to the atrocities committed by organized religion, Christianity in particular. Ever. In any sense. Religion is a horrible culture, and nothing rap does, has done, or will do, can ever compare to it. So... that's not a fair comparison.

[MkVaff]

this thread is mad racist

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

this thread is mad racist

Basically, this.

[JackKieser]

Oh, christ, the race card. Really, people? Seriously? Prove through my posts that I have some problem with *insert race here* (because I really don't know which race I'm supposed to be against here; there are white, black, and mexican/latino rappers... hell, I've heard an asian guy rap once).

Do you hear me saying "black rappers have to clean up"? No, I'm saying rap as a subculture needs to clean up. If I were you, I'd feel really stupid for saying something that short-sighted.

[LuketheXjesse]

Go away.dick

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

How do you prove something is racist without relying on some nebulous definition of "racism"? It just is. If you want an explanation as to why I'm allowed to intuit this, these posts just about cover it:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3353723&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post382829205

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3353723&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post382833368

[JackKieser]

Go away.dick

Very mature. Thanks for adding to the discussion. And for calling me a dick in white text. If you're going to do it, at least have the balls to do it in a text color that can be read.

How do you prove something is racist without relying on some nebulous definition of "racism"? It just is. If you want an explanation as to why I'm allowed to intuit this, these posts just about cover it:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3353723&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post382829205

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3353723&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post382833368

Those two posts don't actually prove anything, nor do they help your argument. First of all, I don't accept any argument of "you know it when you see it" because I'm a scientist; if it can't be proven, it doesn't exist. So, this notion of "well, you're obviously a racist, but we can't actually prove that; you'll just have to trust us" is bullshit, and shouldn't even be taken at face value.

Second, because of the way the word's been used in this thread, I'd say that, even when playing by YOUR OWN RULES, you're closer to the guy using the term "racism" in the cheap, shallow sense, because you're:

A ) ignoring the contextual information, instead basing your claim of "racism" on the assumption that I'm talking only about black people and that I have some vendetta against them

and

B ) ignoring the multi-faceted cultural background that influences rap as a genre, instead forcefully limiting the concepts of "violence" and "drug use" to black people in an attempt to make me seem like a racist.

So, if anything, even if I play your OWN game, you're still the ones looking uneducated.

And what's worse is that, out of the next 5 posts, I'll probably get 4 telling me to shut up, go away, stop being racist, or that I'm a moron, and maybe 1 intelligent, thought-provoking post that tries to quote my own previous posts in an attempt to refute me. Either that, or the thread will be closed, and somehow it will be my fault.

I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion, and all I get in return are flames. Try to stay on topic from now on. We're talking, in case you forgot, about vulgarity in rap music.

[The Coop]

I haven't gotten to use this is quite a while...

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I don't know how else to explain that your posts come off as racist to me if you are going to hand-wave away the arguments I linked explaining precisely why a rigid definition of "racism" can't be applied to explain racism in a meaningful way. You want to operate on a system of modal logic, but the concept is largely based on specific personal experiences that do allow us to generally understand the idea after experiencing it enough, but don't really allow for a way to extrapolate abstract propostions to soundly apply your logic.

Whether you can accept my opinion of your posts or not, they still reek of racism to me. It'd be nice if you could at least acknowledge that you've been close-minded as I pointed out in my first post, but I doubt that'll happen. That's the last I'd say on it so as not to derail your poor thread any further.

TL;DR: I think what I think. Deal with it.

[Benjamin Briggs]

Very mature. Thanks for adding to the discussion. And for calling me a dick in white text. If you're going to do it, at least have the balls to do it in a text color that can be read.

aahahahahaa

[lazygecko]

[JackKieser]

I don't know how else to explain that your posts come off as racist to me if you are going to hand-wave away the arguments I linked explaining precisely why a rigid definition of "racism" can't be applied to explain racism in a meaningful way.

You know why I do that? Because it's that same flimsy logic that lets people get away with calling people fascists, or terrorists, or communists (as if it was a bad thing) without anything other than saying "because you're not a patriot". What you're accusing me of is a serious offense, even on the internet. And if you can't accuse me of it without saying "well, I mean, it's not something I can point to", then you have no business accusing me of it at all. Seriously, your argument sounds like the same half-assed intellectualism I hear on Fox News/MSNBC all the time. News flash: name calling, especially a name as bad as "racist", does not win you arguments.

You want to operate on a system of modal logic, but the concept is largely based on specific personal experiences that do allow us to generally understand the idea after experiencing it enough, but don't really allow for a way to extrapolate abstract propostions to soundly apply your logic.

Bullshit. I can extrapolate an easy way to tell if someone is being racist or not. You are saying racist things if they:

A ) focus on the color of skin.

B ) exclude all other variables except a racial genetic background (especially pertaining to skin color).

C ) ignore complexities of argument in favor of simplistic arguments based on skin color.

Sure, I'm the one making those guidelines, so I could be biased. But to the extent of my knowledge, you can only be racist towards blacks, Mexicans, Asians, Indians, or generally people who are not white (based off of your own two links), which indicates that racism is at least peripherally linked to skin color (but more importantly, racial background). If you want to add to the list or make modifications, feel free, although I doubt this is the thread to do it in.

Again, did I ever say that rap's problems were systemic to black people, mexican people, or any one race in particular? NO. I even took special care to use the term "inner city", because most of the problems are systemic social problems that originated from social class, not race! You can be an inner city person regardless of race.

Whether you can accept my opinion of your posts or not, they still reek of racism to me. It'd be nice if you could at least acknowledge that you've been close-minded as I pointed out in my first post, but I doubt that'll happen.

Well, if I was being close-minded, I would. Unfortunately for the both of us, I was commenting on a very specific problem that, again, I saw as indicative of a culture as a whole. If my rejection of a simplistic "fuck it, that's how things are" attitude makes me close-minded, so be it. I'm sorry for asking a community of people to better themselves?

It'd be nice if the people flaming me could at least acknowledge that they've been acting especially hateful as I pointed out a few posts ago, but I doubt that'll happen. ^_-

That's the last I'd say on it so as not to derail your poor thread any further.

TL;DR: I think what I think. Deal with it.

Not once have I ever said, in this thread or any other, that one isn't entitled to his opinion. If I rememeber correctly... *looks at rest of thread* ...yeah, I haven't been the one calling names and telling people to fuck off. Interesting how that works.

[BlackPanther]

Look, guys.

Modern rap serves it's purpose. A very noble purpose, at that. When I'm out, grinding on some girl, I need something with a LOT of bass, because bass is holding the rhythm to the song, and if I'm as drunk as I should be then I'm gonna need all the help I can get.. I need something that's repetitive as SHIT, because what that girl is fucking swinging her hips, I'm pretty out of shape, and it's hurting my legs enough just to keep up with her between songs, if every song was constantly changing I'd just about die. I need something that's telling me about fornicating, getting drunk, possibly even getting crunk, because damnit I'm half-way to drunk town and I'm feeling good. I want something that's going to talk about making love to a girl in an aggressive manner, ie "like a slut/hoe", because that kind of thing is enjoyable from time to time, for both parties. It's not that I think she's truly promiscuous, but it's often fun for both partners to act as if they are. I ESPECIALLY need something that drops a good few F-bombs, because that shit gets me HYPE as FUCK. (but not so many that it loses novelty...unless it's for a novel purpose. See: Cee-Lo)

If I go to a club this weekend, and I can hear deep lyrical content, and have a complex, detailed song, I'm going to be pissed. I don't want to hear your deep lyrics. I don't want to hear a damn thing over the bass and hats unless it's a orchestra hit or a fucking FUCK.

When I come home, I'll listen to Aesop Rock or Blackalicious or Atmosphere or OutKast something I care about, but damnit when I'm out all I want to fucking hear his Lil' Jon, Trick Daddy, Three 6 Mafia, Lady Gaga, and MAYBE some Journey at the very end of the night when my knees are already swollen.

Definitely not Drake though, I can't take that guy seriously after watching Degrassi for so long.

Eh, I found this post to be the best summary of rap, which actually changed my whole perspective on the matter.

Why are we arguing anyways, can't we all just get along pls. Music is 'sposed to be fun first and foremost. I realized a long ass time ago that arguing about this type of shit is never gonna solve anything and half of the time people sound like idiots doing it I'm not gonna mention names but one of them is still participating in the argument xD.

[RDX]

Oh, christ, the race card. Really, people? Seriously? Prove through my posts that I have some problem with *insert race here* (because I really don't know which race I'm supposed to be against here; there are white, black, and mexican/latino rappers... hell, I've heard an asian guy rap once).

racist

10char

[Brandon Strader]

Someone needs to make a vulgar gangsta rap and a squeaky clean kirby rap at the same time, and sub them both. I am up for the challenge.

/thread

[The Coop]

Kirby rap?

Last line of the chorus...

"We've got two words for ya..."

**yelled by a big crowd** "SUCK IT!"

[JackKieser]

Eh, I found this post to be the best summary of rap, which actually changed my whole perspective on the matter.

And that post is actually very accurate... it's just not what we're talking about. I've already said pages ago that dance music and rap are not always the same. Remember: maybe the 1 or 2 best or most catchy songs from an artist or album make it to the club, while the rest stay on the CD (or, preferably, digital download). Just because the songs in the club don't talk about how shooting people who aren't in your gang is just a fun time for all, that doesn't mean that the other 9-14 songs per album don't... and this whole discussion is about how violence and drugs have pervaded the majority of rap, culturally speaking.

I do agree with what you've quoted, but I don't think what you quoted is actually relevant to the discussion.

Why are we arguing anyways, can't we all just get along pls. Music is 'sposed to be fun first and foremost.

Sure, but music, like all other forms of media, needs to realize the profound cultural influence it has. Just because you CAN do something does not mean you should, and most forms of media still need to learn this lesson.

The news needs to learn it by not operating on a fear-based economy; you can report the news in an opinionated way, you are free to, but that doesn't mean it will have a positive effect on the news sphere or on the public. Movies can put out nothing but ultra-violent summer blockbusters, but that doesn't mean they should, because the realm of movies influences popular culture more than almost any other passive media. Video games can put out same-y, me-too sequels and clones, but that doesn't mean they should, because they are a burgeoning art from and still need to prove themselves in the court of public opinion (and to the Supreme Court, apparently).

Rap has to learn that they can support a culture based on monetary gain, violence, and drug use, but that doesn't mean they should, because its going to have a deeply negative effect on the people that rap is supposed to care about the most: its primary listeners and creators.

I realized a long ass time ago that arguing about this type of shit is never gonna solve anything and half of the time people sound like idiots doing it I'm not gonna mention names but one of them is still participating in the argument xD.

Ok, first of all, haha. Second, arguing about things is one of the only ways people are subjected to opinions that differ from their own, which is always a good thing. Believe it or not, I have experienced quite a bit from this thread, things I will, in fact, take away with me when the debate is long finished. But, just because most people here disagree with me doesn't mean I don't deeply appreciate the disagreement or the discourse. I need that discourse to experience viewpoints that are not my own and grow as an intellectual.

Sometimes, people forget that it's ok to disagree. Strange how that works on a discussion forum.

[Toadofsky]

Someone needs to make a vulgar gangsta rap and a squeaky clean kirby rap at the same time, and sub them both. I am up for the challenge.

/thread

Can this count?

[DarkeSword]

This thread has gone off the rails, mostly thanks to Mr. Kieser, who seems to love the sound of his own fingers on the keyboard.

We're done.