SEGA Removing "Poor" and "Average" Sonic Titles From Retail

[Tex]

For one, Sonic 2 had 10 levels and Death Egg so you got more varied enemies, boss fights, music, etc. Sonic 3 only had 6 levels so there is already a big difference. The final boss fight from Sonic 3 couldn't match up the quality of the Giant Mech of its prequel. And as someone who considers music one of the main priorities in a game, I like the soundtrack of the first two titles better.

[DrumUltimA]

man... I liked sonic 3&K WAAAY better than sonic 2...

[Nabeel Ansari]

Sonic Colors was great, I played the demo at NY Comic Con.

You know how the Sonic Unleashed day time levels were actually cool?

Just imagine that, but with no werehog levels to hold it back.

That's Sonic Colors. Pretty cool, it was fun, not sure what others think.

[WillRock]

S3&K were terrible games, and I have espoused this opinion from the very first time I played them (when they came out).

Get out. Now. S3&K was the pinnacle of the sonic games.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Get out. Now. S3&K was the pinnacle of the sonic games.

Why argue the obvious against a guy who doesn't believe it?

[Bleck]

Get out. Now. S3&K was the pinnacle of the sonic games.

which is really saying very little

[Xenon Odyssey]

hai guise, let's have the exact same argument that always comes up when we have any thread remotely related to the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise.

but to end the argument, the pinnacle of the Sonic series hands-down was

.

[WillRock]

which is really saying very little

I say little to those that say little.

If you want me to back up my quote with reasons then fine:

1. More characters with different ways to play the game for each

2. More powerups

3. Bigger Levels

4. A Storyline that didn't detract from the gameplay

5. HYPER SONIC

6. A decent chaos emeralds mini game

7. Checkpoint mini games

8. A SAVE SYSTEM

9. It was FUN, and successfully improved and added on to an already great game series with good ideas, and an innovative lock on system that even brought more replay value to sonic 2.

[RECKENEFIN]

While I do agree that each of those games had their own respective problems (I haven't played all of them, but I've read plenty), I don't think they should be removing them all from retail. Whether the game was good or not, it's still part of the sonic continuity. In my opinion, gameplay and story are equally important. Admittedly, some of the stories haven't been that great in and of themselves, but they are a part of the overarching story.

This was one of my main gripes about SEGA's announcement of Sonic 4's playable character list. Yes, Sonic should be the main character, but they made it sound like people wanted nothing but Sonic. Now, maybe they did, but from what I read, that's not entirely the case. I don't think people want to completely get rid of all the extra characters added over the years; they just want SEGA to stop introducing new ones every single game. Of course SEGA has made mistakes, and sure there are some characters that should be forgotten, but characters, like game titles, are a part of Sonic continuity, and you can't change what has been established.

Sorry about the rant. I just hate it when people think they can fix the problem by just pretending it never happened and moving on.

[Nekofrog]

Sonic needs rebooted.

[Bleck]

1. More characters with different ways to play the game for each

Tails was Sonic except he could fly over obstacles. Knuckles was Sonic but with a lower jump and the ability to climb over obstacles.

Either of those characters were essentially just ways in which you don't actually have to play the game.

2. More powerups

The Fire Shield was good for sending yourself flying into hazards/enemies/pits. The Water Shield was good because it made drowning impossible. The Lightning Shield's double jump would have been useful if there was ever any walls that you couldn't just run up normally.

3. Bigger Levels

A lot of these levels are just holding down right on the d-pad.

4. A Storyline that didn't detract from the gameplay

This is only a good thing retroactively in comparison to more recent Sonic games. It was not actually a plus in any platformers of the era, because this problem never actually existed - and wouldn't have if it wasn't for fucking Sonic games.

5. HYPER SONIC

You could only get this by having both S3 and SK, which meant you had to buy two halves of essentially one game. That's bullshit.

6. A decent chaos emeralds mini game

I'm colourblind. That game can suck all of the dicks.

7. Checkpoint mini games

These... don't really mean anything. You do them and you get rings, which is something I could also do by just walking forward through the level.

8. A SAVE SYSTEM

It didn't really need the save system.

9. It was FUN.

What is and isn't fun is entirely subjective, as fans of World of Warcraft will painstakingly explain to you.

an innovative lock on system

Yeah, if it weren't for Sega, we would never have companies that sell you half of the game and then make you pay for the rest of it.

Let's throw them a fucking party.

[BardicKnowledge]

Both Tails and Knuckles had access to areas that Sonic did not, thereby invalidating your idea of "not playing the game" Bleck.

As for the shields, I agree that the elemental Shields didn't add as much as it immediately appears -- the added moves are not nearly as useful as the immunity properties. Lightning jump is occasionally useful in getting to different sections of a level, however.

Making two-player mode more legitimate (Tails now enables alternate gameplay) can only be an improvement from Sonic 2 -- I don't even see this one as an arguable point.

What surprises me most of all is that no one here has mentioned Sonic CD, which imo is the best of the series. Awesome music, time travel mechanic was super cool, and the levels are a good mix of platforming and speed sections. Did anyone else even play it?

[LuketheXjesse]

Sonic CD is so good.

[lazygecko]

Sonic CD is pretty polarizing. After the first game, Sonic 2 branched off more into the speed/loops thing, while Sonic CD went more for the bouncy physics, pinball mechanics and such. This didn't sit well with some people, personally I loved it. Graphically it's also the most vivid out of all the 16-bit ones, and the more surreal stage themes just look awesome.

[RDX]

dearest bleck,

did you even bother to properly think out any of those points you brought up? the only one you're probably right about is what is "fun" and what isn't.

[Bleck]

Both Tails and Knuckles had access to areas that Sonic did not, thereby invalidating your idea of "not playing the game" Bleck.

Imagine a level in Super Mario Galaxy.

From the beginning, you can take one way, which leads into a platforming stage that eventually ends in you getting a star. It is fun and challenging.

The other way is a long, straight, featureless path that goes over the other way. There are no enemies, no obstacles, and you get an extra life for taking that way. It leads to the same star.

That is what it is like to play as Tails and Knuckles.

(I have never played Sonic CD and I think the reason people rarely mention it is because few actually did.)

[Benjamin Briggs]

ohSHIT I completely forgot about sonic CD!

that game is incredible yes yes it is

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I must be off my rocker, but the first thing I thought when I read this wasn't "ROFLPWNT Sonic games lol", but was actually "so this is how Sega is dealing with financial downturn and beginning their move into a more digitally-focused direction."

I wouldn't be surprised if they start taking other games like Yakuza games and Alpha Protocol(which did shit here) off retail shelves.

Speaking of which, I heard the PC version of Alpha Protocol wasn't as bug ridden as the console versions. Is it worth the plunge maybe?

[LuketheXjesse]

(I have never played Sonic CD and I think the reason people rarely mention it is because few actually did.)

A sad truth. I grew up with the PC version as a small child.

[WillRock]

Tails was Sonic except he could fly over obstacles. Knuckles was Sonic but with a lower jump and the ability to climb over obstacles.

Either of those characters were essentially just ways in which you don't actually have to play the game.

You don't have to play the game with them no, but they were different ways of playing, and knuckles particularly had different boss strategies and the levels had different paths you couldn't take with sonic and tails. Tails, you could go down different paths thanks to his flying, it just enriched the gaming experience.

The Fire Shield was good for sending yourself flying into hazards/enemies/pits. The Water Shield was good because it made drowning impossible. The Lightning Shield's double jump would have been useful if there was ever any walls that you couldn't just run up normally.

There were points were you couldn't just run up normally It also opened up alternate routes sometimes, and the bubble sheild allowed you to jump higher as well.

A lot of these levels are just holding down right on the d-pad.

LOL there is more to sonic games than that, and you know it.

This is only a good thing retroactively in comparison to more recent Sonic games. It was not actually a plus in any platformers of the era, because this problem never actually existed - and wouldn't have if it wasn't for fucking Sonic games.

You could only get this by having both S3 and SK, which meant you had to buy two halves of essentially one game. That's bullshit.

I find it interesting you call it a problem. Some games have been praised for their storylines before, such as half life. Just because sonic's stories weren't as good later on doesn't make sonic 3 and knuckles any worse for having one that worked.

Also, the two games were separate. Sonic and Knuckles was a direct sequel with lock on technology, so its effectively two games in one.

These... don't really mean anything. You do them and you get rings, which is something I could also do by just walking forward through the level.

They were bonus sections where you got more rings, more points and more powerups, and it added more variation to the games, making them better imo.

It didn't really need the save system.

lol, with the lock in system I strongly disagree. The two games together were too long to complete in one sitting, you could carry on from whatever level you were at (no going through the same level over and over) and when you completed the game, you could reply any level with super/hyper sonic should you have the chaos emeralds.

What is and isn't fun is entirely subjective, as fans of World of Warcraft will painstakingly explain to you.

I agree with you, but the game mechanics of sonic 1, 2, 3 and knuckles are all very very similar, with as good level design and similar graphics that got better as new games were released. If nekofrog didn't like any of the games then ok thats fair enough, but he really needs to say why if he liked the first 2 and not s3&k imo, as for me, as all the components that made the first 2 great are in the s3&k games. I don't actually know your standing here, but I assume you agree with nekofrog seeing as you are arguing against me on his behalf.

Yeah, if it weren't for Sega, we would never have companies that sell you half of the game and then make you pay for the rest of it.

Let's throw them a fucking party.

I've already covered this by explaining the games are 2 separate ones. I don't actually know how much more the two cost than other games of the same length and depth as the two combined together, or if they would have cost more as one full game, but I managed to actually get them together on PC, called the sonic and knuckles collection so this never bothered me.

Oh btw, just read your reply to BardicKnowedge, and if that's what you thought playing as tails and knuckles was like, then I can only conclude you've never played as them as that isn't the case at all.

[Bleck]

Also, the two games were separate. Sonic and Knuckles was a direct sequel with lock on technology, so its effectively two games in one.

No, they aren't. Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were developed as the same game. When the developers realized that they were going to go over the deadline, they cut out half of the then-incomplete levels and split them into Sonic & Knuckles.

The data entries for the levels and music for Sonic & Knuckles are still in the level select/sound test of Sonic 3. Also, the idea of them both being separate games raises the question - why, then, do all of the Sonic 3 levels already have Knuckles' pathways built into them? Knuckles was planned to be playable in Sonic 3 from the start; they removed him and built him into the lock on feature in Sonic & Knuckles.

In essence, you actually had to pay for two games because the developers were too slow to finish it in time. It wasn't 'innovative', it was a last minute solution to solve the problem of "we spent way too much money making this game, we need to make it back somehow".

It's especially shitty that the games didn't turn out so great anyways.

[lazygecko]

Also, the two games were separate. Sonic and Knuckles was a direct sequel with lock on technology, so its effectively two games in one.

They were meant to be one game, Sonic 3 was initially slated to be called "Sonic 3 part 1", and there's still leftover data of S&K stages people have found in the Sonic 3 ROM.

They went with the 2 game angle because they didn't want to sell one larger cartridge at a higher price. Personally I don't see the problem as many SNES games with external hardware were sold at a higher cost, apparently no one bitched about that.

[Bleck]

They went with the 2 game angle because they didn't want to sell one larger cartridge at a higher price.

http://xbox.gamespy.com/articles/654/654750p4.html

It's the same deal with Sonic 3... Sonic 3 is literally half a game. Sega management back then wanted the game out at a certain time and we only had half the stages done, so we had to put the leftovers into Sonic and Knuckles. So when you bought S&K and attached it to Sonic 3, you got the whole of what Sonic 3 was planned to have been.

[WillRock]

Just to clarify, I do know that they were intended as one game. However, for both the reasons gecko and bleck have said, they were split into two games. I believe officially sonic and knuckles is classed as a direct sequel, which makes them different games, even if they were originally intended as one. Play them with the lock on technology, you get what was intended.

[BardicKnowledge]

Just to clarify, I do know that they were intended as one game. However, for both the reasons gecko and bleck have said, they were split into two games. I believe officially sonic and knuckles is classed as a direct sequel, which makes them different games, even if they were originally intended as one. Play them with the lock on technology, you get what was intended.

"intended" apparently means removing one of the game's coolest bosses, unfortunately (Sonic 3 Launch Base finale). No one has pointed this out yet either.

That being said, I always play them locked on because the games are just too short otherwise -- especially given that Carnival Night Zone (3) and Hidden Palace Zone (S&K) basically are wastes of time to play through anyway (though walking through the area where you're teleported to for special stages in S&K was cool). As far as how far in advance they thought of Tails/Knuckles as separate characters (note: Tails in 2 doesn't count, he's a palette swap that can't go Super), there are locations with bonus powerups that only Knuckles can get to even in Sonic 2. I dunno if they were patched in by the lock-technology (which is effectively an IPS patcher iirc).