Minecraft [1.7.2/4?]

[phill]

I go and grab some food and the thread adds another page...So, /home being removed is understandable if his justification is to maintain the survival aspect of the game. The only other option would have been the Fallout route where conditions are put on when and where you can warp, but once again his choice. Given the modding community however, I don't think what he has decided will have much impact on those that want warps.

As for being feature complete, I don't think it is, perhaps moderatly close but still not ready for beta just yet. This may be due to a difference in my defintion for what a feature is, think leaves (a feature the game has) vs decaying leaves(a feature that the game does not have) or boats and interpolation making for smooth boats. If you group all aspects of leaves or boats under one feature set and only require part of it to be implemented, then sure, all the features are there.

Since the thread is slowly heading towards offtopic, I'll move onto something else.

I noticed that every so often foliage will disappear when you destroy the top log of a tree...but it doesn't always happen. Game feature or server glitch?

Its a feature. Crowbar activated a plug-in that attempts to remove leaves when all the logs are removed. It's obviously not perfect, but if you remove all the logs in a tree and the leaves don't disappear, hitting a few of the leaves will usually make the rest disappear.

[The Author]

The leaves used to decay, but when fixing up the lighting they caused a bit of a glitch that lead to a memory leak. That's why leaves don't decay. It's a bug on a feature that was implemented. Features are implemented mostly in alpha, bugs are fixed in beta.

[Crowbar Man]

Mobs are broken mine carts still don't work right and regardless if you think /home belongs or not it should be an option for those who want it. It was removed to hide a server/client issues with teleporting and mobs im sure, you can dress it up however you want. Who in their right mind would call someone an idiot for

wanting more options for their servers? Again with the server hacks you can customise the game to your liking it doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be whatever you the host wants. Unless you hav e personal investment in the company im not sure why you would blindly attack others with different opinion. Its a broken game it needs more time in alpha. If you think this is acceptable public beta material you must play a lot of broken games. I've played plenty of open and closed betas and none were this bad

[The Author]

Mobs are broken

Bug fixes go in Beta

mine carts still don't work right

Bug fixes go in Beta

and regardless if you think /home belongs or not it should be an option for those who want it. It was removed to hide a server/client issues with teleporting and mobs im sure, you can dress it up however you want.

And I'd like the ability to bring out a uzi when I play Super Mario Bros. But I can't. Because the game is designed Uzi less.

Who in their right mind would call someone an idiot for

wanting more options for their servers?

Again with the server hacks you can customise the game to your liking it doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be whatever you the host wants.

(Thank you for answering that one. Mod support is actually a feature of this game.)

Unless you have personal investment in the company im not sure why you would blindly attack others with different opinion.

Because their opinions are stupid. And that is fact. When your opinion is "Minecraft has bugs and incomplete features" it is fact that you are an idiot because in fact Mincraft was sold as an incomplete product with bugs that were going to be worked out.

Its a broken game it needs more time in alpha.

In Alpha games get made. In Beta games get fixed. That simple. Most public Betas (and I speak from experience working in a field other than videogame design but with extensive product testing and alpha/beta-like stages of release) come after a closed beta, and closed betas where outsiders are involved come after private in-house beta testing. Is the game working? Does it have features? Is there any major feature to add still? In the case of Minecraft, the answers are Yes, Yes, One's being added this week, the other is still undecided. Seems like it belongs in Beta then.

If you think this is acceptable public beta material you must play a lot of broken games. I've played plenty of open and closed betas and none were this bad

Like I said, this game is entering Beta but it is at the stage where it usually is an in-house Beta where the testers have access to the code easily and the programmer. This is the "test monkey" beta stage. The one with 18 hour days and a nutrient sludge in the cubicle. It's no where god damned near in any product development stages or a traditional closed or open beta.

What we got, and what I paid for, was an access to the development stages of the game, a chance to comment on the game, and a promise that when it would be released, I'd have it still. I also bought the game to support indy development, and support a company that puts design over style. (Plus I'm a fan of pixel-aesthetics.)

Fluttering about crying because it isn't ready for beta is pure bullshit.

Are you contributing directly to the game by reporting bugs? Nah, you just use mods and complain that the features provided by outside products that add features not inherently programmed in the game are not in the game.

Would you complain because when you pop in Super Mario Bros in the NES you can't play as Link, Bill, or Sophia the 3rd?

As for knowing how software in development can be more broken than Minecraft, when I was working as a tech writer, I was using a beta (publicly available beta) version of a software to manage a product that was shipped out to select clients part of testing. You know what happened to my Windows?

It got partially deleted because of a misshaps in the installation process. At least that's what the prog told me as he was reworking parts of the software.

Betas are like that: unstable, buggy, and annoying messes that are usable. Minecraft is a lot better than many software as they leave alpha.

[phill]

Your acceptance of broken software is incredible, it is truly amazing, "oh, its ok that it deletes half my windows install, its beta software after all" hell no, that's broken as fuck garbage that should never have made it past basic testing (ie. installing the damn it). "Better then most software that leaves alpha" doesn't mean its ready to do beta, it just means it sucks less then other software. By your standards, the two pieces of software I am currently working on should be released, they work, for one, everything is implemented, the other all but one feature is implemented, one just happens to locks up from time to time because of bad communication between two components. The other lacks acceptable precision in calculations but who the fuck cares, it's good enough right? Reason there is so much shitty software out there is because developers think good enough is the same as good. As a result you get WindowsME.

[Gollgagh]

nowhere is RD saying that this is Release Candidate material

[The Author]

Ready for beta at least.

Beta is an extensive testing phase. How else would you find bugs without testing everything you can?

That's what beta is about, testing, finding bugs and fixing bugs.

You should know that.

WinME didn't spend enough time in beta. That was the issue. If Notch was saying "official release is december 20th" I would be a lot more doubting, but he said it goes from Alpha into Beta. This is perfectly natural for Minecraft in its current state.

[Crowbar Man]

There's a big difference between bugs and things being flat out broken. Bugs are small minor things that may break gameplay, but dont happen often. They are hard to find, and thats what a Beta is for. Broken means it just doesn't work, and trying to do anything with them causes horrible side effects. Minecraft doesn't have tiny bugs that need to be ironed out it has game breaking flaws that make the game unplayble. And as I stated unofficial hacks to ADD mod support, and basic server needs. There is no mod support and who knows when there will be and if it will be good as the current hacks. Theres barely any server options period in vanilla.

Your Mario comparison is odd because its a single player platformer and didn't have uzis to begin with. However a modable version were you could would be better, no? Not sure what your point is.

When your opinion is "Minecraft has bugs and incomplete features" it is fact that you are an idiot because in fact Mincraft was sold as an incomplete product with bugs that were going to be worked out.

Actually, my opinion is that minecraft is very broken, and lacks commonly found server features

But even if it was "has bugs and incomplete features", if that makes me an idiot for saying, yet thats how the game is sold... doesn't that mean being correct means you're an idiot? Or am I missing something?

Edited December 15, 2010 by Crowbar Man

[phill]

Beta is an extensive testing phase. How else would you find bugs without testing everything you can?

That's what beta is about, testing, finding bugs and fixing bugs.

Yes, that's what beta is for, not arguing that fact, however;

There's a big difference between bugs and things being flat out broken.

and that seems to be were we differ on Minecrafts readiness to move to beta. After reading some of the code, specific parts that interest me, and playing the game, there are some portions of the game that are broken. In no way am I saying that he entire game is broken, or that the rest of SMP and SSP aren't worthy of beta status, just that these areas should be addressed before things move to beta. Beta, as you say, is for finding and fixing most bugs, not taking a broken aspect of a game, something you are aware of before beta, and rewriting it. I say this because labelling a game beta gives a certain expectation for its quality, and since he is charging for the beta, you should get that level of quality.

WinME didn't spend enough time in beta.

I don't think any amount of time in beta would have saved WinME, the upside is that Microsoft learned something from it and the result was WinXP. Now that we are completely off topic.....Hey look, a tree, lets punch it.

[prophetik music]

make houses not war

[Meeting_Gman]

I think we found the President of the Notch fan club. The Author, just go punch some walls and come back when you can be civil. I will refrain from saying anymore.

Anyways, people are just suggesting the game stay in Alpha for a little longer, there's no need to go ape about it. No one is denying you your enjoyment of vanilla Minecraft.

What does anyone have to lose anyways? We all purchased the client in alpha and we all get the perks of that, so why is it so horrible that some people feel it should be in alpha a bit longer? What exactly does this deprive any of you of?

[Crowbar Man]

Yeah its not like theres some benefit to US for going to Beta. Games not going to magically be fixed and working great. Its going to be the same broken crap every update as its always been. Only now it doesn't have the excuse "Well its only in Alpha" it'll just be "Well its still in Beta" As I mentioned before its a way to charge newcomers more money, and probably some advised his fancy new lawyers/advisors/whatever gave him

Also for those suggesting Creative... is there even a Creative option for the server software anymore? I didn't see anything like that in the configs. Unless I'm missing something, thats still a missing feature as far as I know. Its only in Classic. Its supposed to be added sometime in Alpha, but here we are entering Beta and its still not here

Edited December 15, 2010 by Crowbar Man

[Lunar-X]

I think we found the President of the Notch fan club. The Author, just go punch some walls and come back when you can be civil. I will refrain from saying anymore.

Anyways, people are just suggesting the game stay in Alpha for a little longer, there's no need to go ape about it. No one is denying you your enjoyment of vanilla Minecraft.

What does anyone have to lose anyways? We all purchased the client in alpha and we all get the perks of that, so why is it so horrible that some people feel it should be in alpha a bit longer? What exactly does this deprive any of you of?

your kidding right? The Author has had the most clearly put arguments (and counter arguments) during this whole flame war (definately a flame war, we go for several days with nearly no posts then we get this started, i go to work and come home and we have over 3 pages of new posts. all about this stupid fight)

the only thing we are entitled to is a finished product (when ever that happens. hopefully before christmas 2011. all this complaining isnt doing anyone any good (unless you guys are actually sending notch a lot of feedback?)... but at least no one is doing a DOS attack about this like with the updating in october.

((this whole thing is making me wonder if any of you have any experience with World of Warcraft) the forums there go thru these fights (on even a bigger scale) every single patch just because of small class changes, not even regarding bigger things))

[Crowbar Man]

The only one flaming is The Author really. Apparently to him anybody who thinks the game needs more time in alpha is an idiotic moron cry baby who should die.

Never played WoW, will never play WoW.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Crowbar Man

[Meeting_Gman]

your kidding right? The Author has had the most clearly put arguments (and counter arguments) during this whole flame war (definately a flame war, we go for several days with nearly no posts then we get this started, i go to work and come home and we have over 3 pages of new posts. all about this stupid fight)

the only thing we are entitled to is a finished product (when ever that happens. hopefully before christmas 2011. all this complaining isnt doing anyone any good (unless you guys are actually sending notch a lot of feedback?)... but at least no one is doing a DOS attack about this like with the updating in october.

((this whole thing is making me wonder if any of you have any experience with World of Warcraft) the forums there go thru these fights (on even a bigger scale) every single patch just because of small class changes, not even regarding bigger things))

No I'm not kidding. I can't take in what The Author says because he is so aggressive about it and that is what stuck out to me the most about his posts. If he had been civil about it, I could have digested what he said, but instead all he has done is make everyone all defensive. You can't get any conversation flowing forward when you do things like that because now everything will just go in a circle argument. In the end, everyone will just end up tired and frustrated.

If he feels the game is fine as it is GOOD, I accept that, but I will have my opinion on the matter and he certainly doesn't have to accept it. Now let's move on with our lives and just accept that people feel differently about things. We can either move this conversation forward or do a circle bicker jerk and get no where.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Meeting_Gman

[Lunar-X]

The only one flaming is The Author really. Apparently to him anybody who thinks the game needs more time in alpha is an idiotic moron cry baby who should die.

Never played WoW, will never play WoW.

you cant flame and have valid arguments at the same time (or is that trolling where you cant have that?)

you added the "who should die" XD

lol good dont start playing WoW (however... until you've had experience with them in beta's and bug fixes and content changes... you will have no idea how mild this whole thing is)

No I'm not kidding. I can't take in what The Author says because he is so aggressive about it and that is what stuck out to me the most about his posts. If he had been civil about it, I could have digested what he said, but instead all he has done is make everyone all defensive. You can't get any conversation flowing forward when you do things like that because now everything will just go in a circle argument. In the end, everyone will just end up tired and frustrated.

If he feels the game is fine as it is GOOD, I accept that, but I will have my opinion on the matter and he certainly doesn't have to accept it. Now let's move on with our lives and just accept that people feel differently about things. We can either move this conversation forward or do a circle bicker jerk and get no where.

nothing wrong with being aggressive (Although... without tone the internet is a very hard place to read vibes) although calling people stupid or having invalid opinionswas over the top and not something i agreed with. i meant his other point by point arguments (those were the ones i agreed with)

Edited December 15, 2010 by Lunar-X
didnt want to double post?

[phill]

your kidding right? The Author has had the most clearly put arguments (and counter arguments) during this whole flame war (definately a flame war, we go for several days with nearly no posts then we get this started, i go to work and come home and we have over 3 pages of new posts. all about this stupid fight)

I'm not sure you understand what a flame war is or how it differs from a disagreement.

Now, as fun as discussing development cycles can be, how bout some minecraft?

[The Author]

Actually, I'm just so god damned tired that everyone is a special flower that needs to be respected. Own up to your opinions, and if you have them, be ready to have substance to defend them.

Expecting civility when you assume unbacked fallacious arguments have a place in a conversation is ridiculous. If you are wrong, and you are demonstrably wrong, then I will demonstrate it. And when you persist in being wrong because your opinion matters more than being right, I will push back.

Because quite frankly, if people did that more there's be some smarter people all around.

Also this:

The Author, just go punch some walls and come back when you can be civil. I will refrain from saying anymore.

Never makes you the bigger man in the argument. It makes you the coward. If you think I am anything but logical in my arguments, do say so. Stop insulting me with attempting to refute me with the same flimsy arguments over and over and over and over. It wasn't right the first time they were posted, it still isn't right the 10th time.

Also: please tell me what aspects of the game are broken? Because all I heard were bugs, and things that need polish. For something to be broken it needs to be more important than "Minecart code isn't optimized." There were broken things in the past, but so far everything seems to be functional.

The other reason why he has to move into beta is because of a promise he made about 10 000 000$ ago when it was a one man project. Minecraft is a lot bigger than what he anticipated, and keeping it in alpha would be irresponsible because of that promise. Imagine if he had said: ok, we're not moving to Beta, but from now on we're in Alpha phase 2, so if you buy the game its 15$ and you wont get theoretical DLC in the future. There'd be people here bitching about how unfair it is.

But yeah, I must be Notch's fan club for thinking rationally and expressing my opinions clearly in both the logical aspect, and the subjective response that what passes for arguments in here elicits.

[Bleck]

your kidding right?

stopped reading this post right here

[Meeting_Gman]

Wait, I just got to see the ending to Metal Gear Solid 4 so right now all of this seems pointless. Right now I'm going to bask in that wonderful high and then tomorrow, maybe I will play a game where I build things out of cubes, a game which was made by a little, balding man in Sweden.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Meeting_Gman

[Ferret]

Yay drama! Where do I sit? ...I missed it? Drat.

[Crowbar Man]

Wow. Have you even played the game? I'm starting to wonder. I've stated multiple times the game breaking glitches with the mobs (invisible mobs attacking you, unable to actually attack said mobs because of insano range/lag issues, etc), and the unusable carts (a minecraft staple in SSP), complete lack of administration options for server admins, and no mod support. What is fallacious about what I have said? I guess you are just going to continue to play your magic version of minecraft where there are only small bugs to find in your glorious new Beta.

So far the only thing you've proven is that your standards of whats acceptable level of functionality are clearly lower then what some of us would like. Thats fine, I guess? If you can't act civil over a simple conversation of a game, I'd hate to see what you react like to important things.

Also, I dont know if you realised you quoted, bug Gman hasn't posted much on this thread, but uh MAYBE WE'RE ALL OUT TO GET YOU. DONT LOOK BEHIND YOUR REFRIDGERATOR! YARRR!!!

And I also mentioned there are reasons clearly other then "its ready!" of why its moving into Beta, but oh look, now your saying the same thing. But YOU are right and I am wrong, because I am an idiot cry baby who was orphaned in a bonfire

Edited December 15, 2010 by Crowbar Man

[HalcyonSpirit]

Wow. Have you even played the game? I'm starting to wonder. I've stated multiple times the game breaking glitches with the mobs (invisible mobs attacking you, unable to actually attack said mobs because of insano range/lag issues, etc), and the unusable carts (a minecraft staple in SSP), complete lack of administration options for server admins, and no mod support.

Game-breaking glitches. Those? No.

Game-breaking glitches are issues that cause the user to be unable to play/advance in the game due to an issue that is critical for gameplay. If you are still able to play the majority of the game, but can't take advantage of a particular aspect of it, and not being able to do so does not directly affect the other aspects of the gameplay, it is not a "game-breaking glitch," it is merely a bug that needs to be fixed at some point which causes an inconvenience of some opinion-based level.

Mobs? You can have them on and be able to play. Is it frustrating? Yes, but that's due to them not working particularly well. However, the functionality is there, and there are ways you can work around the issues if you so desire to put in that effort (whether or not it would be worth it is a completely different topic unrelated to whether it breaks the game or not).

Minecarts/boats? They make the game more fun, but you can play the game without them. And they only don't work in certain specific ways, you can use them for some purposes. Not having them doesn't impede you from playing the game.

Admin options for servers? That's not gameplay-related, that's user interface, and that's far less of a priority when going into Beta than fixing critical bugs.

Mod support? Again, user-interface. Not related to core gameplay at all. Mods are third-party, after all, there's no requirement to have mod support as standard in any game.

If those are your examples of "game-breaking glitches," then you have an exceedingly low standard for breaking a game.

---

In other news, I've been playing single-player a lot more, lately, and I have to say... whenever I'm in a cavern, I'm 100% on edge the entire time I'm down there. I jump when I see something in the darkness, or hear the twang! of an arrow being shot. The atmosphere... it makes it so difficult to not be nearly frightened to just go into the darkness, not knowing if there's going to be a creeper or skeleton hiding in a dark, unseen corner, waiting for you to turn your back so it can pounce.

Edited December 15, 2010 by HalcyonSpirit

[Matt E. Waldman]

Gonna avoid the conflict going on here. I just wanna play Minecraft!

Anywho, I would love to be whitelisted! My Minecraft name is also MattInc.

[Crowbar Man]

How is dying constantly because of issues with mobs not game breaking? By your own description, of a player not being able to advance/play (because said invisible monsters killed them) they would be.

Up until this very last update, boats were LITTERALLY gamebreaking, as they caused you to have to litteraly log out of the game once they glitched out. Boats seem to work okay now, though they still create copies of your entity if you disconnect the server. Minecarts still do not function correctly. This is game breaking if you plan on duplicating anything you can do in SSP with carts in multiplayer because it simply will not work.

Admin options and mod support are helping the game become popular, regardless if you consider them important. Many people would not be playing the game without them. We wouldn't have our said whitelist without them. Heck, it would be really hard to even have places like Multiplay (the current OCR MC host) to host a playable game without the 3rd party admin options/mods. You may find it acceptable that these features are still missing in Beta, but its kind of ridiculous

Creative Mode: Still completely absent, and we're moving into Beta.

Also, serverside inventory is not done yet, and I can only imagine what wonderful game breaking additions it will bring RIGHT before Beta hits.

As a reminder: Theres no special treat for the game going in Beta. It will still be the same broken game that will probably get even more broken as updates come out as it was last update. Theres no reason for everybody to be excited and want the game to be called Beta. We dont get a prize.

Who votes for the OK of MattInc?

Edited December 15, 2010 by Crowbar Man