Final Fantasy XIII..... 2?

[EC2151]

*looks at calender*

They moved ahead the "beating the dead horse" session by 6 months, I hate missing memos.

Seriously though, keep beating that horse until it becomes undead and eats all our brains.

...wait.

Naw, I'd cast Cure2 on the thing before it even got near me.

And this is pure anecdotal, but every FF nut I know insist that FFXIII is the absolute worst in the series in terms of gameplay, where it pretty much devolved into "You better do this specific Paradigm Shift right here to avoid dieing" which is a crappy game mechanic, they said. That and all the shit about the story being bad. My older brother tried playing the game as well, and well, he hated it.

Conversely, I do know someone on another forum who goes around spouting about how great the game is, and how it's the best Final Fantasy he's ever played, but when hard-pressed, he admitted that the only FF games he's played are FFXIII and.. FF1.

Maybe this game will fix what seems to be the severely broken narrative of FFXIII, but I hold no breath on that one.

[zircon]

For all the absurd fanboy rage, FF13 has a pretty solid rating on Metacritic, both from aggregate critic ratings AND user reviews. So, besides selling well, it was also a critical and popular success.

Try reading Square's own postmortem on the game. They admitted that they did international testing too late in the process to really integrate player feedback, eg. about the linearity of it. They also said they lacked a cohesive vision until the demo of the game was out. So, they have a pretty good (and honest) idea of what they did wrong and how to correct it. It's nice to see that in a developer, and bodes well for future titles.

[Thalzon]

For all the absurd fanboy rage, FF13 has a pretty solid rating on Metacritic, both from aggregate critic ratings AND user reviews. So, besides selling well, it was also a critical and popular success.

Try reading Square's own postmortem on the game. They admitted that they did international testing too late in the process to really integrate player feedback, eg. about the linearity of it. They also said they lacked a cohesive vision until the demo of the game was out. So, they have a pretty good (and honest) idea of what they did wrong and how to correct it. It's nice to see that in a developer, and bodes well for future titles.

Hey, none of that talking sense stuff. Squeenix is shit and all games they make that anyone happens to like are total flukes because of belts and zippers. Or something.

[Arek the Absolute]

Guess how many of those copies were returned? Japan was literally FLOODED with returns after the initial purchase, bringing the game's NEW price down after probably a month, and selling at a USED price so low that it was mind numbing.

I'd like to see you find these people that "thought it was excellent". I guaran-fucking-tee you I can find more that hated it.

The mass majority of those who do are those who love Japanese things because they are from Japan and utterly hated games like Mass Effect solely because it was from America.

No, really, out of everyone I know, those are the only people who I know that loved FFXIII completely.

I liked some things about XIII *hope is still one of my favorite characters in the game*, but seriously, a sequel to this? Couldn't they have at least took some time to look at why XIII did so bad before they rush another out?

I hope at least they at least change up the battles so it isn't just STAGGER STAGGER STAGGER STAGGER fest all the damn time.

[zircon]

Again, really, to be fair... they wrote up a whole postmortem talking about all the stuff they did wrong with FFXIII (as well as what they did right.) They had already realized they made certain mistakes even within the development process that were not possible to correct (toward the end.)

[Kenogu Labz]

That's a basic principle of software development. Once you're that deep into the project, you can't just turn around and make major design changes without pushing a fortune into it. Even Square-Enix Can't take that kind of risk. So they finished their product and shipped it out. And it sold. Whether it was as good as everyone had hoped it would be, it paid for itself. That gives them the resources to try again, but now with the opportunity to revise some of those decisions without the same painful cost.

[Hyperion5182]

That's a basic principle of software development. Once you're that deep into the project, you can't just turn around and make major design changes without pushing a fortune into it. Even Square-Enix Can't take that kind of risk. So they finished their product and shipped it out. And it sold. Whether it was as good as everyone had hoped it would be, it paid for itself. That gives them the resources to try again, but now with the opportunity to revise some of those decisions without the same painful cost.

My main thing is that instead of doing 13-2 they should be DLC'ing like crazy. Storyline left enough room there's a lot they could do with after the finale.

Overall my personal experience. It was far easier to follow than 12 was. It was better than 10 and some of the moments if you didn't try to compare were pretty strong. I get why people rage on where the series has gone especially with X and X-2 but there isn't much that can be done about it.

Having had my own foray into Game Development i have a new respect for the mayhem of this kind of enviroment. If they're gonna do 13-2 It'll should take place Post 13 which is going to mean a return to a real open world format. It might also require FF13 save data (I'm tryin to avoid spoilers. Those who have beaten it know exactly what i'm talking about) I get why people are raging. But take a moment and think on the premise they'll be using.

[Turtle]

I actually quite enjoyed Final Fantasy XIII. Not necessarily for the story or characters (though I didn't dislike those), but for its balanced difficulty. I didn't have to grind once! Well, not until Chapter 11. Then it got a little ridiculous. That's when I got turned off to the game and quit. I despise grinding.

[kupernikus]

The mass majority of those who do are those who love Japanese things because they are from Japan and utterly hated games like Mass Effect solely because it was from America.

No, really, out of everyone I know, those are the only people who I know that loved FFXIII completely.

I liked some things about XIII *hope is still one of my favorite characters in the game*, but seriously, a sequel to this? Couldn't they have at least took some time to look at why XIII did so bad before they rush another out?

I hope at least they at least change up the battles so it isn't just STAGGER STAGGER STAGGER STAGGER fest all the damn time.

I thoroughly enjoyed XIII. I still like it. Even though it's as linear as every other FF game since IV for the first 20 hours..... no, seriously it is. FFVI you are in it for that long with only the semblance of non linearity because of the world map and because you get to choose which companions substory to play out first. VII you're in midgar a solid 10-15 hours before the world map and from there you've still got a ways to go before the non linearity consists of a world map with no where to go but your destination. X? Same story. XII You get the airship and freedom to travel sooner, however outside of a couple hunting subquests it's a long, long time before you can go anywhere other then main story locations.

Oh, and ME and ME2 are 2 of my favorite games of all time. Let's keep pulling blanket statements out of our asses to try and affirm our opinions.

[thephoenix]

They should be focusing on just putting it behind them (like Mystic Quest) and leaving it where it is to move on to bigger and better. Both FFXIII and FFXIV did horribly, but the biggest issue remains with the fact that most of the original FF team is gone for various reasons. What once was a game that was challenging and deep...that didn't feel like it hit every RPG cliche in the world...is now exactly what we're seeing. Sadly, their IPs will still sell because people know them and it's familiar. It's like the Transformers movies. The second one had dogs humping as the punchline for a joke twice in the first 10 minutes. Still, it made tons of money.

If you focus on many of Square-Enix's decisions you can see the exact business path they're taking. Look at Kingdom Hearts and the very confusing direction they're taking it. Remember the first one? It was amazing. It was deep, it was well executed, and was a lot of fun. Because of that, the games continued to grow in popularity, and in such, will continue from that initial base. Consider this: if FFXIII was the instead an independent release from a new company, exactly the same way it is, and Final Fantasy never existed, the game would be forgotten in no time. The same exceptions long-time fans make wouldn't be afforded to a new game without that base.

For me, I want to see FFXV go back to roots. I agree that IV, V, and VI were amazing, as well as Tactics and IX (and I do kind of like VIII) but the only good thing they've had come out of milking those franchises to date is FFIV: The After Years. Every other one seems to just have became idiot fan service or some of the worst game development decisions I've ever seen. I really hope someone some day punches the guy who created the Judge System for FFTA straight in the face for being retarded.

EDIT: One last thing, they need to stop dumbing down the damn games. RPGs are meant to be challenging, and I shouldn't be able to hit a cruise control button and let the game do the fighting. If I want to watch a movie, I'll do just that. I can't tell you how many times people that complain about FFXIII being too easy go back to FFIV "hard mode" (which is basically just the original difficulty with the game in japan) and learn very quickly that FF games used to be unforgiving.

[Kenogu Labz]

The Judge system in FFTA? That was brilliant! It forced you to use other strategies, and to think of new solutions to problems you may or may not have seen before. It was actually forcing the player to use Tactics.

Similarly, grinding can be boring... unless you use it as a chance to hone your skill and learn strategies, or play with abilities you haven't dared to try yet. I've heard XIII's chapter 11 is pretty bad with grinding, even for an RPG, though.

Then again, who didn't grind on the Veldt in VI, just to get Gau or Stragus some moves? Or to keep fighting that one rare monster and get his mad loots? They created a place where grinding had extra benefits for specific party members, which made it a bit more bearable than just pointlessly waiting to level up.

In terms of making XIII-2 DLC: You have to actually program the DLC system in the first place. Square-Enix assumed XIII would be enough of a success to not warrant any form of DLC. As a matter of fact, I can't recall any Square-Enix RPGs that do contain it. (Can anyone validate that?) Their games sell well enough on their own, and they're packaged as a complete story, beginning to end (or some variation thereof). To add more without breaking the story, they really have to develop a whole new game, hence X-2, XIII-2, and spinoffs. So DLC really doesn't make sense in context of the bigger picture.

Mass Effect can handle DLC, since certain key people are still living after each game (I'm assuming, haven't finished the second game), which allows them to build some new story into the continuity without breaking anything. Does this approximate what the DLC actually is for those games?

[Gollgagh]

The Judge system in FFTA? That was brilliant! It forced you to use other strategies, and to think of new solutions to problems you may or may not have seen before. It was actually forcing the player to use Tactics.

you're shitting me right

all it did was prevent you from using a completely arbitrary skill for every battle (or if you're like me, it made you run and run around the map to get the right bonus for fights)

never once did I "think of new solutions to problems I may or may not have seen before", nor did my strategies ever change except for "oh I guess I'm not using fire today"

[Arek the Absolute]

I thoroughly enjoyed XIII. I still like it. Even though it's as linear as every other FF game since IV for the first 20 hours..... no, seriously it is. FFVI you are in it for that long with only the semblance of non linearity because of the world map and because you get to choose which companions substory to play out first. VII you're in midgar a solid 10-15 hours before the world map and from there you've still got a ways to go before the non linearity consists of a world map with no where to go but your destination. X? Same story. XII You get the airship and freedom to travel sooner, however outside of a couple hunting subquests it's a long, long time before you can go anywhere other then main story locations.

Oh, and ME and ME2 are 2 of my favorite games of all time. Let's keep pulling blanket statements out of our asses to try and affirm our opinions.

lol u mad?

also where did i even mention linearity in my comment?

way to get on the defensive about something that has nothing to do with what i said

ALSO, I said mass majority. I didn't say EVERY SINGLE PERSON.

I did, however, say every person I KNOW. Do I know you?

NOPE

Gj at making yourself look retarded

[zircon]

They should be focusing on just putting it behind them (like Mystic Quest) and leaving it where it is to move on to bigger and better. Both FFXIII and FFXIV did horribly, but the biggest issue remains with the fact that most of the original FF team is gone for various reasons.

Objectively speaking, FFXIII didn't do horribly. Its score on Metacritic (both reviewer AND user) is about the same as Final Fantasy Tactics, about 84%. It sold millions of copies. On the other hand, FFXIV has about a 49%.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Objectively speaking, FFXIII didn't do horribly. Its score on Metacritic (both reviewer AND user) is about the same as Final Fantasy Tactics, about 84%. It sold millions of copies.

Which is what I think most people here are having a hard time accepting. The game sold shittons, and there's a sizable amount of people who did genuinely like it, both non and longtime fans of the series alike.

"I didn't like it, so it must be shit!"

[thephoenix]

The Judge system in FFTA? That was brilliant! It forced you to use other strategies, and to think of new solutions to problems you may or may not have seen before. It was actually forcing the player to use Tactics.

The level of "tactics" it forces you to use would be like playing Metal Gear Solid and, out of nowhere, someone runs in and goes "THE FLOOR IS LAVA!" "Why!?" "BECAUSE I SAID SO, SHUT UP AND DO IT!" There was no purpose or reason to it. Why would I be in a forest, battling bandits (who would be against obeying any laws if you ask me), out in the middle of nowhere, and a judge just shows up and goes "WEEEE, YOU CAN'T USE SWORDS OR YOU GO TO JAIL!"? Even moreso, why would any judge just randomly ban things? Yes, it's brilliant.

Objectively speaking, FFXIII didn't do horribly. Its score on Metacritic (both reviewer AND user) is about the same as Final Fantasy Tactics, about 84%. It sold millions of copies.

and...

Which is what I think most people here are having a hard time accepting. The game sold shittons, and there's a sizable amount of people who did genuinely like it, both non and longtime fans of the series alike.

Sales =/= how the game did. Again, Transformers 2 was horrible but made 400 million. Hell, Twilight prints money left and right with their books and movies. That's not really a good measure of how good a game is. Again, I'd have loved to have seen how it would have been if it was released as it's own RPG without any popular IP backing. I guarantee those numbers would be worlds lower. Plus, it's very difficult to compare two games by rating numbers alone. I mean, FFVII got a 92 on metacritic whereas FFIV got an 85. Those are fighting words.

True, sales help keep the company alive, but they lose future sales by continuing down the same path. There will always be both sides of the coin, but as far as FFXIII was concerned, the disliking side weighed in much more, and for very legitimate reasons. Like I said, it's done with, they should move on to the next game in the series, and hope for the better next time around.

[zircon]

So if critical reviews are good, popular reception is good, and it sells a lot... what other metrics are there? Is it just that everyone else's opinion doesn't count except yours?

Twilight is a bad comparison. If you look at Metacritic, the movies had both low critical scores and even low user scores. That is a case where it's making money without being good - not the case with FFXIII. "Sizable amount" of people not liking FFXIII is not accurate as the majority of people did in fact like it, along with the majority of reviewers.

[kupernikus]

lol u mad?

also where did i even mention linearity in my comment?

way to get on the defensive about something that has nothing to do with what i said

ALSO, I said mass majority. I didn't say EVERY SINGLE PERSON.

I did, however, say every person I KNOW. Do I know you?

NOPE

Gj at making yourself look retarded

read around the thread, dozens of complaints about linearity.

Also, Mass majority is still a retarded blanket statement people try and attach to add some sort of credibility or strength to their argument without actually doing anything.

So if critical reviews are good, popular reception is good, and it sells a lot... what other metrics are there? Everyone else's opinion doesn't count except yours?

Twilight is a bad comparison. If you look at Metacritic, the movies had both low critical scores and even low user scores. That is a case where it's making money without being good - not the case with FFXIII. "Sizable amount" of people not liking FFXIII is not accurate as the majority of people did in fact like it, along with the majority of reviewers.

This. The game got decent scores, it sold loads but because of nostalgia for the good old days it's beat on on the internet.

I mean, a product that sold well, was received well and got good critical scores, OMG HOW DARE THEY THINK A SEQUEL IS OK FOR A FAILURE LIKE THAT.

[justinj212]

Posted an Op-Ed piece at Elder-Geek related to this (hint, the title is "Square Enix Must Be Stopped", and I complain about a certain character's lack of pants).

http://elder-geek.com/2011/01/square-enix-must-be-stopped/?instance=1

[thephoenix]

So if critical reviews are good, popular reception is good, and it sells a lot... what other metrics are there? Is it just that everyone else's opinion doesn't count except yours?

Twilight is a bad comparison. If you look at Metacritic, the movies had both low critical scores and even low user scores. That is a case where it's making money without being good - not the case with FFXIII. "Sizable amount" of people not liking FFXIII is not accurate as the majority of people did in fact like it, along with the majority of reviewers.

Critics are a bad view on exactly how good or bad a game is. You could look at fan reviews but so many people give instant 10s or 1s that it's hard to measure. You could go off critic reviews but most don't get to play the full load of a game, only a partial of it, before reviewing, so they really don't get a full feel for it (and those that do tended to score much lower). You could go off sales, but sales are an iffy metric because most people don't base their own thoughts and opinions off of a game BEFORE they purchase it. As far as reception, you have to factor in for a lot of things for a game like Final Fantasy. The game has many factors that, when removed, would damage the base of the game itself. You have the known IP, the nostalgia factor, the longing for a decent RPG in this time of nothing but FPS games (by the way, play Resonance of Fate if you want a good, recent RPG...it's what FFXIII should have been), the fact that back when many other FF games were released it was in a time of heavy RPG releases, and continued that way all through the PS2 era. The next gen consoles haven't seen many decent RPG games in a long time, so it's going to get a much better reception. Still, you have to look at the game for what, and how, it is. The game was RPG light. Every old school RPG fan hated the over-simplified mechanics, the extremely linear gameplay, the aggrivating characters, poor and broken story, and so on. These are the things that make an RPG, and in this day and age those things are low on the list of what people look for to rate a game. Gone are the days of Earthbound and Super Mario RPG, eh?

Oh, and to jump in on the linearity argument, of course most games start out very linear. They need to direct the story so when it does open up the world you have an idea of what you're doing. It slowly builds up the open world idea as it gives you more freedom to do things, while not forcing you to (and I love this analogy) "run down a long hallway for 40 hours".

By the way, point and case on how reviews by critics can vary to a point that it's hard to judge a game on that alone:

http://kotaku.com/5493738/frankenreview-final-fantasy-xiii

[Coyote-Trickster]

you might also consider that 3 months back you could buy 13 in japan for 500 yen, roughly 5$. you don't usually see main titles drop that badly unless there is a reason behind it. Possibly like Neko said, the overflow of trade in returns flooded the market.

[The Derrit]

i still hold to the statement that if the old final fantasy games came out now for the first time, none of you people who are like 'leik omg squaresux now lolol' would like them AT ALL

and like zircon said XIII was a critical and financial success this =/= terrible and failed like some of you seem to think

[thephoenix]

i still hold to the statement that if the old final fantasy games came out now for the first time, none of you people who are like 'leik omg squaresux now lolol' would like them AT ALL

and like zircon said XIII was a critical and financial success this =/= terrible and failed like some of you seem to think

Likeable characters, amazing stories, deep backgrounds, difficult challenges...yeah, you're right, those sound like things that make for a bad game that no one would like.

I got FFIV a month after it's original release and loved it. I got FFVI the day it came out and loved it. I got FF Tactics the day it came out and loved it. Tell me how that'd be any different than if they released it now? The game is still the same game, and numerous people that are "Post-FF7" fans that never went back and played the older ones have loved the hell out of FFIV-VI. They had nowhere near the same backing that Final Fantasy has now, so technically in the US they still stood on their own feet and did amazingly well.

[relyanCe]

"just because a game is successful DOESNT MEAN THE GAME IS SUCCESSFUL"

wa-hoooow guys.

[The Derrit]

Likeable characters, amazing stories, deep backgrounds, difficult challenges...yeah, you're right, those sound like things that make for a bad game that no one would like.

likeable characters: the only thing that made the older characters more likeable was their lack of personality. it allowed people to fill in what was missing (aka everything but the text they spoke) to make an idealized version of whatever character it was that was talking

amazing stories: they're good. no one's really arguing with that all that much. but they're not drop dead spectacular either

deep backgrounds: what does this even mean. if it means that there's substance behind the ingame worlds they're completely blown away by the modern ones. hell 13 practically had an in game encyclopedia, it was huge

difficult challenges: no one who hates the new ones hates them for lack of challenge i've never heard anyone here say that ever

so pretty much what it comes down to is every new character isn't cecil or cloud and every ff villain isn't kefka

edit: ALSO ALL OF THE EARLY FINAL FANTASY GAMES DID SPECTACULAR WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.

go lurk moar