Economics of Game Prices

[JackKieser]

You haven't addressed the claim that I started the insults, when you clearly did. You have made a false statement. False statements should be addressed, as you have routinely made it clear. Unlike the ones you claim we have made and ignored, this one can be proven by provided evidence.

I ask only that you respond to it in the manner you would like us to.

...

Honestly, I don't care anymore. I really don't. I'm tired of dealing with irrelevant stuff. You want me to say "I'm sorry" for calling you stupid? Fine, whatever, I'm sorry. I called you stupid for the same reason I'd call a friend stupid if they were going to buy a new copy of AC:B at Gamestop when a local store had a new copy for 5$ cheaper: because you're literally engaging in a buying practice that will hurt you (assuming you really do support EA's Madden BS with your money). I don't care, because I could call you a million names in whatever order you'd like, and it still doesn't make my arguments about game pricing and piracy any more or less accurate. So, I'll say whatever you'd like it it means we can move the hell on.

Aside from that, I have a question for you. This is not meant as any kind of mockery, nor is it any kind of veiled commentary on you or anything you have said to date. It is a simple, direct query about your intentions here.

Wall of text time. Sorry everyone!

Hypothetical time: let's say that you are completely right. About everything you have said. You have the actual knowledge, skill, education and all that, as you say. Your arguments are accurate and flawless. We are wrong, you can prove it, and we intentionally refuse to listen to you at all, because we're blind, ignorant to the truth and stubborn. We have trolled and baited you because we think it is funny. We have gone out of our way to be as annoying and whiny as we can. Any outside, neutral observation by an equally educated person would agree with you that you have made a perfect case for yourself, and we simply aren't going to accept it because we don't agree with it. Even some of the site staff aren't agreeing with you, and who knows, they may just delete the thread and all you have worked for so far will be gone. They may even go so far as to close your account here and ban you from further activity, because they are also part of the problem. It is a cesspool of everything that is wrong.

Then why are you here?

If you're as educated as you say, and you know what you're talking about, why aren't you writing articles? Actual articles, not some short paragraph or little essay on it, but full-sized, complete articles. Why aren't you making a career of this? You have the brains and guts to do so, and yet you are here, after three days, arguing with people you know aren't being rational or fair-minded. They are closed-minded and just won't listen to rational anything.

Why bother? It seems counter-productive and waste of your skills.

You say you want to educate people and generate discussion and get some people to think about it. If it's a matter of wanting to convince as many gamers as possible, why not go to NeoGAF? They have far more members, way more interaction with each other, and some of the members there are in developer and publisher companies, including the ones we've talked about. They would offer a much bigger audience to share your opinions and views with, they would offer far more and better discussion than we can, and they love this sort of thing.

Even better, Law of The Game has lots of high-end articles about legal matters pertaining to video games. You could hitch up with them and go into any number of things to do with how these companies operate. They have lots of readers, and are routinely mentioned on other sites for their legal issue articles. They even occasionally get involved in actual legal court room stuff from time to time. Think of the exposure your views could get with that. How many people could you get to that way? Hundreds? Thousands? As opposed to here, you might get... what? A couple of dozen or so, at best? And that's if they aren't being stuck-up and thumbing their noses at you for no reason at all.

In fact, why bother with other sites at all? You could have your own site, complete with your own forums. Or a blog. Hell, make your own e-magazine or something with like minded people and publish it online. You're a big proponent of that sort of thing, and you claim to have the proper mindset and expertise to do so. It could be the single biggest platform for your opinions on the internet! You could be on the forefront of who knows what kind of change! What would be stopping you from doing so?

This education you claim to have, why aren't you using it in a way that gets people to really think about these things? Why aren't you fixing the problems from the inside, where it counts? Why bother with such a small community that rejects anything you have to say simply because they want to act cool? Why not get out of the trenches and onto the real battlefield and do some actual good?

You have ~25% of all posts in this topic. That's how many hours? We're just mindless trolls, out for some fun. We don't have anything better to do; this is our lives, sitting here and being childish. You're a serious scholar with something important to say. You could have spent that time far better than on here.

Seriously. Why? Are you really the educated philosophy major with knowledge of things programming and business-oriented? Or are you content with sitting around here and wasting your esteemed education with a bunch of uninformed people who are openly hostile to you and will only heckle you for no reason? Are you not capable of doing better than this?

I guess I'm just wondering why you think this is even a battle that you should be in. If you're the smart guy you say you are, why belittle yourself with us, when you an get involved in the real big fights where you an do some good. Pick you battles and do some good, not sully yourself here in the gutter.

Just.. why bother? It's obvious you will never get enough people here to think about it seriously, and you're just wasting your effort on us peons. Even if you do get anyone going, it's such a small amount of victory for so much effort. You could be doing so much more, but you aren't. Are we just too easy a target for you? If so, then you're no better than us. Are we that uninformed that you feel obligated to try and correct us? If so, you're in for a terribly long ordeal. Is it because you have nowhere else to go? I find that hard to believe, as you should have no problem finding any number of places that would suit you better. I just can not fathom why you think this is worth it. Why bother?

[/hypothetical time]

OK, I think that's almost the character limit for a post. Sorry it came out so long, it was just something I had to ask.

Short answer: I just worked a full week and had three tests in a row; now that I had 4 days in a row off, I didn't want to do work. For some reason, arguing on forums never feels like work to me, regardless of how stubborn the person I'm arguing with is. It's fun, for some reason, and I really enjoy people counter-pointing me; it gives me an opportunity to hone my intellectual skills in an informal setting, AND gives me a great opportunity to learn and fix holes in my own thinking / arguments.

Long answer: Because I realize that I'm still only a 23 year old college student who is still on his way to the philosophy PH.D.; this is capitalist America, and I'm not going to be doing any en mass convincing anytime soon. I'm a patient guy. Honestly, I've never thought about running a website or doing anything serious because I, frankly, don't have the time (and don't know the first thing about websites); I have a hard enough time paying rent right now. To run a site, write in-depth papers, maintain a constant net presence on multiple sites... do all the things you suggest, basically, would be such a drain on my time and resources that I wouldn't be able to go to class and work (full time, mind you).

I spent as much time as I did this weekend because it was a luxury, one that I won't have for QUITE some time. It's just unrealistic, right at this moment, for me to be as gung-ho as I'd (I assure you) LOVE to be about this. I am very passionate about social philosophy and about video games (especially as an art form), but I just don't have the time to pursue what I want right now.

Life sucks, but you make do with what you can.

As far as forums like NeoGAF, I've simply never been, and never thought about it. I'll say that you're wall 'o text wasn't written in vain; you HAVE given me legitimate things to think about. We'll see what happens. I'd love to write and all that... well, we'll see. I know it's going to be a profession someday (that's what I'm working on now), though.

[Nekofrog]

oh.

a philosophy major.

that explains everything.

you may resume your dead-end future

[Gario]

Hey, it's better than a music theory major, that's for sure. That's if you want to talk about dead-end futures, that is.

[Nekofrog]

no, they're pretty much on the same level of worthlessness

the only difference between the two is how much you paid to get a piece of paper that will enable you to do almost nothing in the future.

on the upside, at least he'll have an expensive 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of toilet paper.

[Bleck]

a music theory major can maybe sit behind a piano and play a little tune for his pals at least

[The Phalanx]

I think this succinctly sums up Jack in this thread.

[Souliarc]

Pretentiousness and insults aside, I can appreciate Jack's perspective and have even tweaked my own a bit. No doubt, his points have brought about much dialectic (and possibly even MORE dialectical tension lol), but the fact remains, if we trim the fat, there is a lot to be learned here.

While Philosophy is not the most lucrative choice for a degree, I am currently taking a Philosophy class and can, in my opinion, vouch for its significance in our world. Good for you man.

[sephfire]

To Jack:

This isn't meant to be sarcastic or antagonistic, but have you ever considered joining a debate team or taking a debate class on the side or something? I mean, you've clearly got a head on your shoulders, you're a philosophy major, you've got a point of view you enjoy the heated discussion ... you've got a lot going for you in this kind of environment, but your debate tactics really handicap your position.

The things is: you do have a pretty decent argument you're making. I don't agree with every facet of it, but your perspective isn't unreasonable. But every time you deliver that perspective, the post is laced with thinly-veiled insults to the opposition and a constant air of condescension. You aren't engaging in an exchange of ideas so much as firing volleys from a tower, and it completely cripples the argument you're trying to make. It's counter-productive. The reason the entire thread is ganging up on you is not because of your stance, but because of those tactics.

For a similar example: the original draft of our Piracy episode was much more incendiary, much more blunt in calling pirates on some of their bullshit. But we knew that if we delivered the episode that way, we would convince no one. The episode would only succeed in angering people, and no one is receptive to new ideas or world-views once they enter that mental state. So we re-wrote it a few times in an attempt to deliver the argument in the least abrasive way possible.

Again, not meaning this as a slight, just as food for thought. If it weren't for the wealth of personal insults, tangential arguments and condescension filling this thread (and coming from both sides), we could have wrapped this debate up in a neat bow by page 5.

[Benjamin Briggs]

Except 1996. Stupid N64.

I take this statement as a personal insult to my character and challenge you to a duel

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I think we can all agree that English majors occupy the lowest echelons of worthlessness...

[The Damned]

Honestly, I don't care anymore. I really don't. I'm tired of dealing with irrelevant stuff. You want me to say "I'm sorry" for calling you stupid? Fine, whatever, I'm sorry. I called you stupid for the same reason I'd call a friend stupid if they were going to buy a new copy of AC:B at Gamestop when a....

Where in your years of schooling and years of debate did you learn that personal attacks and insults were the accepted rule for discussion? I may have only taken one class of basic debate (in junior high, no less, many years ago, and I hated it), but even such a lowly amateur as myself was told that no reasonable argument could ever be had when you do so.

I only wanted you to act like the adult you're supposed to be. You could have easily taken any level of high ground and been the better man, but I now believe you are not capable of doing so. You love acting like a great student of life, and then behaving like an argumentative child when it suits you. I find it strange how you think doing both is only benefiting you.

On the plus side, you did offer a form of an apology for those actions... so that's something, I guess.

But you still haven't addressed the issue of your making a false statement it when presented with evidence stating otherwise. Namely, that I was the one to start insulting you, when your own posts clearly show that it was you that began insulting others. Even if it is not about economics, it is still a false statement that you made in this thread.

You are so adamant about exposing false claims with facts when it's your turn to discuss something, but when we provide any false statements that you have made, you try to change the subject or claim it's not on-topic... simply because you don't want it to be.

How are any of use supposed to take anything you say seriously when you continuously refuse to do that which you ask of us? If we state something that you claim is false, you respond with arguments and evidence that counters it. But when we provide you with a false statement you made, and can prove it with your own writing, you claim "irrelevant" and refuse to even bother with it.

How can you justify anything you say here and expect us to take what you say seriously when you act like such a hypocrite? You're the big expert! Why don't you show up how it's properly done?

[JackKieser]

@Sephfire: I'm not going to quote you, since that'd just take up a lot of space, but to answer your queries:

University of Washington doesn't have any formal "debate" classes (they have a club which forms a team every weekend, but nothing official), but I think that's because their program is structured in a way that they think you won't need it: you incrementally learn good debate style throughout the curriculum. Either way, no school I've ever gone to offered debate; I grew up in Texas, and as we all know about them, if you're not playing football, they don't give a shit (8 years of choir, incrementally worse due to arts budget cuts... those bastards), but I've probably learned more about discourse and debate on the internet than I would have learned in a class, anyway.

I know I can come off as incendiary sometimes, but part of that is because of where I come from, 'net-wise. You have to understand, here you guys are all buddy-buddy all the time; you have no REASON to be heated on these boards... you talk about music, most of the time. I mean, what are you going to get passionate about, chord structure? I come from a background of competitive gaming forums, where the discussions we have, the arguments we make, the decisions we come to, cost all of us hundreds of thousands of dollars (Brawl brought in over 300k$ in 2009, and I helped debate the ruleset for that); passion tends to come out, but we view that as OK, because it’s real and its frank.

The internet is the great forum of anonymity: political correctness means nothing here, but that's one of its strengths. You can be more passionate on the internet because, ultimately, it makes no sense to take something an anonymous guy says personally; just shrug it off and move on. I think it's really funny how at arms people get because of MY posting style... there was someone I used to debate with online, a Swedish guy named Yuna. Oh man, he was incendiary, he was insulting, he was passionate, blunt, frank, and he was, I assure you, 100 times worse about insulting people than I was.

But the guy was right, and made sure he was, and did his research, and always had well structured arguments. I'm so glad I had him yelling at me, calling me names online for 6 months, because it taught me that a person =/= his arguments (the MOST IMPORTANT FACET of debate, in my eyes), and that you CAN'T take everything you hear on the internet personally. You just can't. You HAVE to be able to shrug it off.

The only person I've been out-and-out cruel to has been the Damned, and we've gone on all the tangents. Cut those posts out, and I've been frank with people, but not out-and-out insulting. Because, this is internet, and I can call out stupid stuff more frankly here than I can anywhere else. It's ridiculous: we never really call people out in real life because of PC. People act self-destructively, allowing themselves to be abused physically, emotionally, financially (I always laugh at my grandparents because Faux News has conditioned them into protecting the interests of corporations that really want nothing more than to screw them in the worst possible ways; only a stupid person would have a physical dependency on medicine, and then argue that the only companies they can get it from should have a RIGHT to sell it at 500% markups, something that is OBVIOUSLY not in their best interests). The fact of the matter is that people take everything so personally that they can't take honest, unfettered criticism anymore. I love it when people call me an idiot (if I'm AM being one), because it snaps me out of whatever I'm doing and MAKES me reflect on it... and sometimes, I find out I'm doing something self-destructive, and I stop.

Now, I concede that being a dick for no reason, just for the sake of being a dick, is wrong, and gets you nowhere. But I want people to be angry, I want the people I debate with to feel emotion and passion because it's that very emotion and passion that makes you hold your beliefs in the first place, and there's no motivation to change anything, be it the world around you or yourself, without passion. Your video was great, but it was so nice that I can't imagine anyone stopping pirating because of it because it probably won't make them passionate enough to WANT to stop. You laid a brilliant logical foundation, but are relying on people to build on that foundation without really giving them a passionate reason to want to. I applaud you for being civil, and for laying out the facts so well, and only time will tell how much it really effects things, but that was my honest criticism: it lacked a spark of passion that would motivate people to really act on your information.

Being non-abrasive gets people to sit down and hear to you, but it rarely gets people to really listen. There is a time and place for it, I agree, and I (obviously) don't debate with people IRL the same way I debate online (that would be overkill), but if I can't be frank on the internet, the last bastion of TRULY free speech on the planet, then how can I EVER hope to be frank it real life? Because I don't like sugar-coating, and I refuse to do so for the sake of not offending people; sometimes, people should be offended.

I know that's long, but it's my rationale. Take it for what it is.

EDIT@The Damned: I don't care because you still haven't learned that my arguments =/= ME. I could tell you that I'm a KKK member, a staunch racist, and that I think we should bomb all people who are not like us, and although all three of those views are demonstratively retarded, they would make only my arguments on game piracy and pricing no more or less valid. Ok, so you could prove that I called you stupid before you called me a name (I consider your tone before then indignant and insulting enough to warrant the term "stupid", but as I said to Sephfire, being a dick just cause is wrong, and nobody is perfect, which is why I apologized), but does that invalidate my arguments? No, and if you think it does, than you're really, truly, honestly more of a fool than I originally thought, and you have much to learn. Again, I'm not going to mince words here: you need to learn that a person is logically separated from his arguments; this is NOT debatable, this is a FACT of logic.

[The Damned]

Yeah, no. Your arbitrary rule book that says you're right isn't going to cover your ass all the time.

Your "big league" expertise and all the great education you have doesn't fly here. You're not proving anything beyond what you wish you were true. You only say you're right because you want to be. Even if you are completely right, and I am a foolish little man that doesn't know what what he is talking about and is incapable of understanding what you have said, all you really have is a verbal victory over someone that is beneath you, on a video game music site.

Truly a worthy victory.

[Tables]

First of all this is one of the most entertaining threads here, please don't stop it.

At this point, even though I don't entirely agree with Jack, at this point he's being a lot more reasonable then The Damned is. Jack still addresses every point of just about everyones posts, no matter how skeptical they are of him. The Damned... I think it's time to stop being so hung up about the insult thing. Sure okay it was a blunder on Jack's part, but he apologized for it and I don't see how it makes his recent points any less valid. If anything, go after his 'faulty logic', don't go after the fact he called you an idiot over 10 pages ago.

edit: Oh come on man

[DarkeSword]

If you're going to post on these forums, don't be incendiary. Argue without offending people, because if you can't, well, then the following has never been more true and relevant.

Also this is insanely condescending and belittles everything we do here:

I know I can come off as incendiary sometimes, but part of that is because of where I come from, 'net-wise. You have to understand, here you guys are all buddy-buddy all the time; you have no REASON to be heated on these boards... you talk about music, most of the time. I mean, what are you going to get passionate about, chord structure? I come from a background of competitive gaming forums, where the discussions we have, the arguments we make, the decisions we come to, cost all of us hundreds of thousands of dollars (Brawl brought in over 300k$ in 2009, and I helped debate the ruleset for that); passion tends to come out, but we view that as OK, because it’s real and its frank.

If you don't think people here get passionate talking about music and other things we do here, then you really don't know anything about this place. What you do in your competitive gaming scene doesn't have any more weight or importance than what we do, and doesn't inspire or fuel any more "passion."

[JackKieser]

...and hypocritical? It's kind of hard to take a moderator at face value when he speaks out against flaming, and then posts a trollpic he made himself.

Sorry, dude, but that's not really the best way to prove your point. And it's not exactly classy moderation.

[DarkeSword]

Sure it is. Your entire approach to debate is exactly the same as Jack Thompson's approach. Argue, offend, insult; don't worry about your tone, so long as you're being frank and making your point. Don't be nice, don't be civil; so long as your arguments hold up, it's okay!

As far as I'm concerned, the two of you are interchangeable.

[Benjamin Briggs]

[DarkeSword]

that is banworthy i'm gonna ban you

[JackKieser]

You know, "civility" doesn't mean "kissing ass". Again, the only person I've been out-and-out mean to is The Damned. Gario and Zircon, the other two big posters I've been responding to, have gotten NO vitriol from me. I've been frank, but I have been civil to them, I just haven't kissed ass.

Jack Thompson is just a douchebag; he treats EVERYONE like crap, even the people who try to treat HIM respectfully, AND on top of it, he can't even back up his points; at least I have valid arguments. Thompson's are as uncogent as they come.

Either way, you're still a moderator. Moderators (as far as I know) are supposed to be the best-of-the-best on a forum; they lead by example. You can think what you want about me, but posting trollpics is akin to Obama laughing in the face of the President of France; sure, he might not respect the guy, but it's hardly Presidential behavior.

EDIT: Actually, why are you even COMMENTING on my posting style, if not to tell me you'll ban me or something? This is SERIOUSLY off-topic from the thread's intentions, and I also thought the job of a moderator was to keep us on-topic. If so, you're doing a bad job of it; you should just be telling all of us (including me) to shut up about the trolling and discuss game prices like we're supposed to in here.

[Toadofsky]

So in short, games are expensive, and nothing will change it. Even if you get a bunch of people to get "active" over it. Game companies are now going into a much larger shift, control over their product, as that's been touched on in this thread. And knowing how greedy some companies are, expect it to get worse. Internet boycotts? That's free advertising, and doesn't help.

The basic way to make a company RETRACT, and to change, is simply with your wallet. Heck, when Blizzard tried to instill on their Battle Net accounts would have to have your REAL NAME on them, guess what people did? They canceled pre-orders, they cancelled their WoW accounts. They didn't talk about their upcoming games. They didn't threaten, they just did it.

Wait, I thought people were still talking about the economics of games, not about who insulted what. Guess I'm late to the party as usual...

I haven't seen such a flame war in, well, Nekofrog, when's the last time we saw one like this? You've been here longer than I have.

[DarkeSword]

I'm COMMENTING on your posting style because it's a PROBLEM. There is a reason that every single thread you participate in devolves into people basically saying "Jack, you don't know what the hell you're talking about; what the hell are you talking about and why are you posting massive walls of text?"

This happens every single time because you just can't get it into your head the way people actually discuss things here. This isn't Smashboards and this isn't your college logic and philosophy class. Your arguments are incredibly naive and people always call you on it, and you always shrug it off and continue to hammer the same, flawed points over and over again. Stop doing that.

This is OverClocked ReMix; these forums have a specific atmosphere and rhythm. Find it and learn to adjust to it, otherwise the same damn thing will happen every single time you post in any thread. Don't be verbose, be concise. Know what you're talking about; actually know what you're talking about. Realize that you're still young and afaik, still in college, and that your life experiences are actually pretty limited at this point in time. And please, for the love of God, stop saying things like "economists don't understand economics."

Furthermore, shut up about the trolling and discuss game prices like we're supposed to in here.

[The Damned]

Actually DS, if you watched the 2009 Screw Attack Convention debate Jack Thompson attended, he was pretty rational and calm. In fact, it was like someone had either drugged him a lot, or replaced him with an android duplicate.

It's on Youtube or Screwattack.com somewhere, I'd suggest checking it out if only for the strangely mellow atmosphere it has.

Oh found it.

http://screwattack.com/videos/SGC-Full-Debate

[LuketheXjesse]

I forgot about this guy lol

[JackKieser]

I'm COMMENTING on your posting style because it's a PROBLEM. There is a reason that every single thread you participate in devolves into people basically saying "Jack, you don't know what the hell you're talking about; what the hell are you talking about and why are you posting massive walls of text?"

Yeah, there is: because I usually post on the opposite side of the majority opinion of OCRemix. Don't think this is my first forum; I went from "total nobody" to "one of the most respected posters" on SWF with EXACTLY this posting style (less refined, of course), and the reason I got so much hate and flak was because I was posting a contrary opinion. No one likes a contrary opinion, except REALLY mature people who can handle being challenged and NOT take it personally, which even took ME a while to develop (and I'm still not perfect at it; even I have a while to go).

This happens every single time because you just can't get it into your head the way people actually discuss things here. This isn't Smashboards and this isn't your college logic and philosophy class. Your arguments are incredibly naive and people always call you on it, and you always shrug it off and continue to hammer the same, flawed points over and over again. Stop doing that.

My arguments are hardly naive; if they were, they'd be all sunshine and roses and "there's no WAY a game publisher could try to take advantage of the system and its customers! No one's that mean!" If anything, I've been trying to address the issue from all angles so far.

This is OverClocked ReMix; these forums have a specific atmosphere and rhythm. Find it and learn to adjust to it, otherwise the same damn thing will happen every single time you post in any thread. Don't be verbose, be concise. Know what you're talking about; actually know what you're talking about. Realize that you're still young and afaik, still in college, and that your life experiences are actually pretty limited at this point in time. And please, for the love of God, stop saying things like "economists don't understand economics."

Don't really have a response to that, other than if a forum forcibly causes all of its members to conform to a particular speaking style or else he gets trashed every post, that's not a healthy forum atmosphere; discussion and debate relies and thrives on diversity, and if your forum members are actively punishing people who don't sound or post like them simply on the principle of "you're not posing like us", that's not a good community for discussion; it IS a good community for back-patting, though.

Furthermore, shut up about the trolling and discuss game prices like we're supposed to in here.

Finally. Yes, sir. If you have anything you'd like to add, I'll let you have the last word.

Now... on the topic of game prices, should there BE any regulation on the used game market? Because part of why we're paying so much for games is because Game Stop rapes the used game market, and does so with a business strategy that is purely parasitic, both towards the consumer AND the developer. If places like Game Stop had used game sales regulations in place, perhaps that used game sales HAVE to give a cut back to the original publisher / developer, does anyone think that'd affect game prices positively?