The Phalanx Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Excellent points, Thin Crust. Hardly anyone ever talks about what this guy has done with regards to the law.People need to stop blindly siding with either side just because. I'm not taking sides in this, I just find the whole situation hilarious. Hotz is an idiot for blabbing as much as he has and thinking he can go against a giant corporation for his illegal activities. Sony is an idiot for hilariously poor security measures and removing OtherOS. Both are going to get the piss taken out of them when all is said and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 One would hope that Hotz would win, as his side is the side of consumer rights. If Sony wins, it basically means corporations can do whatever they want, even manipulate the courts far worse than usual. (lying in court dockets, forcing someone who doesn't even live in CA to come up with the expenses to travel there to go to court when they could of sued him in his home state, try to manipulate the courts into giving them information they dont need, TRYING TO ERASE INFORMATION FROM THE INTERNET, using this as an excuse to spy on people, etc) I personally think Hotz is a show off who could of easily handled things better, but Sony's reactions are far worse than his actions. Nothing he was doing should be considered an "illegal activity" anyways. This wont have any effect outside the US, but i hope graf_chokolo wins his case in Europe against SCEE too. Europe needs consumer rights too! Hacking linux into a console should NOT lead to a police raid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Crust Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Poor security measures? It took them 4 years to hack the PS3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 The main reason why it took so long is because there wasn't any need, OtherOS allowed linux on the console and a route for people to play with the device. Hackers have constantly pointed out over the years the PS3 has been left untouched because of OtherOS. And what did Sony do? Remove OtherOS. It was an invite to hack, and hack they did. If you watched the fail0verflow breakdown of the security, its terrible. They put a lot of stuff in there, but did NOT know how to use it. Everything is just broken and/or useless from a security stand point They also completely failed a math equation for the highest level security, thats how they figured out the keys. They used math to solve the keys because Sony forgot to make the most important part: make the random divider random. they used the same number each time for their "random number". No super cluster of super computers working for hundreds of years: once they found the issue, they found the keys with math. They dont have hardly any security on their network. Both them and developers relied solely on the fact you "couldn't" hack it. Too bad they aren't as smart as they think they are. In comparison to the 360, which has yet to be cracked for the last 2 years (even then, jtag hack is a very complicated hack requiring soldering, and the keys have never been discovered as far as I know), and has had security on their network from day 1. Sony / Nintendo had some terrible security on their console / network. But at least Wii's worked by design, and was cheap to implement. Who knows how much Sony spent on their security measures, but couldn't figure out how to use them properly Microsoft just has an issue security on their 360's DVD drive, they've made the drive harder to hack over the years though. That can only be used for piracy and nothing else, their console itself completely locked down past JTAG hack 2 years ago. I'm guessing future generations of consoles will use MS's example: eFuses (which the PS3/Wii lack) combined with a REALLY tight security system really kills hacking efforts :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Ha! He got donations to support his case and is planning to fight Sony with it? At the end of the day, I can see some very, very happy lawyers from both sides of the fence (I mean, where do you think all this money is going?), but I'm not seeing this ending well for either party (one is facing a long, arduous legal road, the other is facing a tarnished reputation over this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Poor security measures? It took them 4 years to hack the PS3. the only reason they didn't think of trying to use the authentication code sooner was because they all believed that there was no way sony would be stupid enough to have one single key on everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I just fail to see why people think he's innocent and think he has a chance in this. This is what George Hotz is being sued for. * Violating the DMCA * Violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act * Contributory copyright infringement * Violations of the California Comprehensive Computer Data Access & Fraud Act * Breach of contract * Tortious interference with contractual relations * Common law misappropriation * Trespass According to the law you can be held liable for being negligent. Meaning that regardless of the fact your work had no personal intention for being used illegally you still understood the ramifications of your actions. Fact is George Hotz knew what could have happened and it did. He isn't exempt from fault. Thus is the reason he needs a lawyer, donations, and all the help in the world. Um... lolololol. Sony HAS been though all of this before... AND LOST. Look up their case vs. Bleem. Sony sued Bleem for copyright infringement in nearly this exact way when Bleem produced a reverse engineered PSX emulator for PC that allowed PS1 games to be played on your computer. And guess what? They lost. The only reason Bleem didn't come out OK in the end is because they ended up bankrupt, but Sony still lost the case; it was one of the important cases in emulation that proved that reverse engineered emulators were legal. On top of that, your "negligence" argument is horrible, and so is Sony's. In fact, the courts are already kind of saying as such. Sony is trying to say that reverse engineering their private key is illegal (it's not; reverse engineering is legal) and that releasing it is infringement (it's not; you can't copyright a string of numbers), AND that GeoHot is responsible for what other unrelated people do with the key he released... except, that's BS. First of all, if that logic was sound, if you could be held responsible for the actions of others unrelated to you in any way, then gun companies wouldn't exist (because guns don't kill people; people kill people, but you're still responsible for that person killing) and cars wouldn't be manufactured (because it's Ford's fault that you drove their 2000 pound death machine over the speed limit and killed that little girl, those dirty enablers). Second of all, GeoHot didn't enable piracy with his hacks, and that can be proven though looking at the source code. Again, all he did was release the private key, which can't be used to pirate directly without specially made / edited disc pressing software / hardware or without homebrew like GeckoOS that's designed to skip disc checks, neither of which his homebrew enabling software did. GeoHot did all he could to disseminate homebrew without enabling piracy, and the fact that we're seeing lots of hacking, but hearing about few actual pirated games kind of speaks to that. Finally, most of the claims Sony is bringing are patently ridiculous claims anyway, and it's by the grace of Christ himself that none of this has come up in court before. As was said earlier, most of the DMCA / copyright / digital media practices we have in place right now bone the consumer, but no one has been able to mount a defense so far to actually challenge this stupidity... until now. GeoHot raised his money in 18 hours; Sony is messing with hacker culture at large, and the whole of the internet in general, by suing GeoHot; not only does he know it, but the internet knows it. By the next round, he'll have the EFF firmly on his side, and for subsequent rounds, the internet will only become more emboldened. GeoHot may be a dick at times, but he has a large coalition of people on his side. A very large coalition. Many of them outside of Sony's jurisdiction. This is not going to be an easy fight for Sony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwing Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hotz goes to school where I graduated last year, RIT. I'm sure the amount of girls he picked up from jailbreaking the iPhone should hold him over for a while if he goes to jail. You'd be surprised how well it helped that doofy mother fucker pick up chicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I swear to god if this ends up with Sony doing that serial key shit on ps3 games they were talking about, I'm holding everyone backing this crap responisible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Which is what Sony wants: they get to abuse their own users, AND they get to blame GeoHot as if he's the one personally issuing the serial keys out. It's, honestly, brilliant on Sony's part. It's also only going to work on really, really uneducated people; everyone else will know that Sony's abuse of their own customers is only to make them money at everyone else's expense. If Sony really cared, they just scrap the PS3 and start production on the PS4, instead of, you know, killing off their brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Well, these guys have nothing to DO with piracy, but Serial Keys dont work for preventing piracy (See PC Market). nothing does. If anything, Sony would be more interested in using that to get rid of the used game market, which is something all console manufacturers and publishers want to do away with, and blame it on "piracy". The used game market probably does FAR worse financial damage to them than piracy, as these are people who HAVE money, and DEFINITELY want to spend it, and they dont get any of it. All about companies taking away rights. You should be mad at them, not people sticking up for rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Well, what do you expect? Few people really know how to critically think and do research these days. If all you do is listen to Sony's press releases and read the stilted media coverage so far, you'd get the impression that GeoHot is a pirate, too. Sony WANTS people to equate hacker with pirate, because that means less support for GeoHot. For instance, there is a thread on the G&T subforum of the Penny Arcade forums in which a poster by the name of Halkun gives a play by play breakdown of the proceedings between Sony and GeoHot, made more interesting by the fact that Halkun is a lawyer that was sued by Sony for something like this in relation to the Bleem case I mentioned earlier. When you read both sides and read the legal justifications Sony gives for it, it's painfully obvious that, although he's an ass at times, GeoHot is in the right here, and that he is, believe it or not, fighting for consumer rights, just like he did with iPhone and wireless jailbreaking. People SHOULD be on his side, because he's trying to enable consumer rights AND disallow piracy at the same time, and is capable of doing so (to whatever degree you can actually disallow piracy, that is). But, Sony is vilifying him and trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, making HIM out to be a pirate when he has stolen nothing. It's really quite messed up that people even LISTEN to Sony at this point, but what do you expect when people doing critically think, do research, and ask questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamer Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Fun thought: Remember when the US Air Force bought all of those PS3's to link together for a powerful computing system (I don't know the specifics). Yeah, if that shit breaks or needs to be updated, Sony automatically updates the PS3's to the latest version, without the LinuxOS support, rendering it useless to the Air Force and a HUGE waste of our tax dollars. Way to go Sony for destroying our national security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Fun thought: Remember when the US Air Force bought all of those PS3's to link together for a powerful computing system (I don't know the specifics). Yeah, if that shit breaks or needs to be updated, Sony automatically updates the PS3's to the latest version, without the LinuxOS support, rendering it useless to the Air Force and a HUGE waste of our tax dollars. Way to go Sony for destroying our national security. I was told Sony rendered a fix for them, but haven't looked it up myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malaki-LEGEND.sys Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Fun thought: Remember when the US Air Force bought all of those PS3's to link together for a powerful computing system (I don't know the specifics). Yeah, if that shit breaks or needs to be updated, Sony automatically updates the PS3's to the latest version, without the LinuxOS support, rendering it useless to the Air Force and a HUGE waste of our tax dollars. Way to go Sony for destroying our national security. Hang on, Mr. President. Gotta wait for these damned things to update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brushfire Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Fun thought: Remember when the US Air Force bought all of those PS3's to link together for a powerful computing system (I don't know the specifics). Yeah, if that shit breaks or needs to be updated, Sony automatically updates the PS3's to the latest version, without the LinuxOS support, rendering it useless to the Air Force and a HUGE waste of our tax dollars. Way to go Sony for destroying our national security. Those aren't connected to the internet, so there is no need to update them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malaki-LEGEND.sys Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Those aren't connected to the internet, so there is no need to update them. But how does the Air Force play GT5 with their friends, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Dude, AIR FORCE. They'd be playing Ace Combat, yo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Yoshi Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Dude, AIR FORCE. They'd be playing Ace Combat, yo. No... nobody should be playing Ace Combat. Especially the air force. I would like to chime in and say that the viewpoint thrown up by Thin Crust is ignorant and entirely misguided. Yes, the law DOES state that these things are illegal and you can be held liable, so it is an uphill struggle. But illegal does not automatically mean wrong. People need to fight bad laws at every step of the way, by fighting them in the courts and by challenging the reason behind them. Jailbreaking PS3's may be illegal according to Sony or whoever, but that doesn't mean that it can't and shouldn't be challenged. Can anyone actually have such faith in lawmakers to place good above all else, that they will follow all laws blindly? I mean, the people that make laws often have good intentions, but don't think about unintended consequences or side effects of the laws they place. And those that make laws for the interests of corporations over masses need to be challenged at every turn by the masses. Balance has to be struck in laws, and if it isn't then the law should be fought tooth and nail. Case in point, this situation. Yes, it's illegal, but it's so entirely wrong to say that if you buy something, you are not allowed to modify it in order to make it do what you want. You can't say "this counts for hardware but software is another matter" and then argue that the economics of, say, piracy are the same as theft from a store. I'm not for piracy, I believe that people should be paid for the things they create, and thus I don't believe software should be treated any differently than hardware. If I am allowed to take my car apart, find out how it works, and then alter it to get more power, better mileage, or to attach a mini-fridge to the drive assembly powered by fairy dust, then I should be allowed to open up my software and figure out how it works, and then alter it to make it do something different. I still paid the guy for the original work, and by changing it I am entering a silent bargain saying that if it breaks, it's my own damn fault. If my fairy fridge causes my car to explode, then that's all on me, and the manufacturer has no right to say that I can't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamer Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Those aren't connected to the internet, so there is no need to update them. If your PS3 breaks down, who do you send it to for reparations? Most likely Sony. And when they repair it they update it to the latest version, which removes LinuxOS support. Of course, the Air Force could have their own engineers who can repair it. You would know better than I do, Brushfire. Here are a couple of sources I found about the situation: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100513/0113129410.shtml http://www.shacknews.com/article/63761/sonys-removal-of-ps3-linux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Crust Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Case in point. Just because you want something to be legal doesn't mean it should be. In this case, it's like leaving a gun lying around where a kid can find it. It's like letting a 12 year old drive a car (he may be the best driver in the world, but does that mean we should allow him to drive?) It's like leaving a pedophile alone in a room with a little kid. WHATEVER! Just because piracy can happen with George Hotz's legal modifications, doesn't mean it will happen. That's the argument you are trying to make and even though I would love a world where people would make their own homebrew and not perform any illegal activities with this, I know that it's never going to happen. The vast majority (like probably more than 90% majority) are going to use this for piracy. That can't be avoided and this is why I support Sony on their endeavors. Out of all the steps taken to combat piracy, Sony has never prevented any activity that I ever wanted to take with their systems and until they do, no one has any right to complain about their course of action. If you want to claim that he didn't do anything wrong, (like you said) the law needs to change. Until that happens, he's guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Objection! *slams desk* Sorry, Thin Crust, but you've already proven yourself wrong. There's an obvious contradiction in your argument... and it's right here! It's like letting a 12 year old drive a car (he may be the best driver in the world, but does that mean we should allow him to drive?) You're right that we have standards and rules about who is allowed to drive, but just because we need to limit an action, doesn't mean it HAS to be outlawed entirely. Indeed, a 12 year old can't drive, but people, in general, still can... even though cars are, literally, capable of obscene amounts of damage to person and property. Why is this? Because the risk of misuse doesn't preclude the legitimate use of a car. The law knows this, and it treats many everyday dangerous objects and ideas in this manner. Gun are literally instruments of death, but the illegitimate use of a gun doesn't invalidate the legitimate uses, and so we restrict but we don't ban the use of guns. Same with driving. Maybe it isn't the best idea to allow the release of a private key online... but whether it is or is not a good idea is irrelevant to this case, because what is being argued is that hacking is so dangerous that it can't even be legally allowed for an individual to hack something he or she bough and owns; if we allow people to drive or own guns, I hardly think that building a custom firmware for your PS3 is really dangerous enough to public well-being to say it has to be outlawed. It is, of course, dangerous to Sony, but that's also irrelevant, because that's the nature of business; products and services are invented or created all the time that threaten your business; either you adapt, make a better service, or go bankrupt. If someone hacks Android onto his PS3 and doesn't need to buy games off of PSN, then it's Sony's job to make a better PSN worth buying content from, not the government's job to protect Sony's business model from competitors. So, you see, Thin Crust... You've just helped to prove the defense's case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Crust Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I was showing your side of the argument on purpose. And I also said if you think it's right, you should fight for it. Continuing on I said that because of the majority use of this feature, it will cause much more harm than good. Then I added that until the law is changed, he is still guilty. Maybe you missed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKieser Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Um, actually, he isn't guilty until he's proven guilty. Or did you forget that we live in a country that has an "innocent until proven guilty" system of law? He isn't even guilty now, and if he wins this civil case, the law will be on its way to being changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phalanx Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 It's like leaving a pedophile alone in a room with a little kid. You did NOT just equate revealing serial keys on the internet with child-fucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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