Garian

League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

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Hey Guys! Just giving a shout out to all OCR Heroes and/or anyone that wants to join us for some ranked play! I was talking to Koriantor and we've felt that it's time to return to the field of League but still keeping it casual for now and just doing 5's for fun. Message me if you're interested. Thanks!

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Well we used to play twice a week on Tuesdays and Saturdays at around 9pm Eastern time but we try to work with everyone's schedule. Sure, rank doesn't really matter to us. We play for fun and you'll get better naturally.

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Cool, well I think it'd be fun to join some folks from OCR in LoL. I'll try and be on at those times if I can remember - I'll probably put a little note in my calendar. If anyone wants to add me my name is Aloryn.

Cheers!

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She's still pretty broken. Remember Elise when she came out? Pretty much like that, except remove the CC from cocoon and replace with high damage spears, and give her unlimited mobility.

Much less annoying to play against late game, but much easier to snowball and get kills with earlier.

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For the next few weeks, I'm only available to play on Saturdays. I haven't had the time to analyze the new patch quite yet due to a lack of free time to do so. What's with this AD nidalee thing you speak of?

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I think that AD Nidalee is making a strong comeback with the new kit.

What does everyone think of the 4.10 changes to Nidalee, and the new items?

On the subject of Nid... It's still really early, and it'll be interesting to see how she develops, but ultimately? I don't see her being very popular for awhile. I think her poke game got hit a bit. (Probably needed, as much as it pains me to say that.) I think building the pure AP glass cannon nid that everyone used to play is non-viable, so her only viability comes in the form of Tanky-Bruiser nid and AD assassin Nid..both semi viable and certainly interesting to see, but ultimately? there are other champions that fill that role better. I feel like she has less build options and will only be played top now which makes me sad. I was kinda excited to see her as a potential support (especially with cougar at the start of the game) but she seems far to fragile for that. Time will tell, ultimately.. I love/hate the changes to her kit.

As for the item-changes, I think they are all good and positive changes. ADCs have needed some buffs for a bit now. Personally, I'm hoping they do something with Hurricane down the line, but I think overall its a good change for the game. Also excited to see Twitch/Lucain get the nerf stick a bit, they were in every SINGLE ranked game that I've played. It was getting annoying.

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she's a ridiculous support, which you didn't mention. tons of damage on the traps, and as a dps support she doesn't offer cc but she does offer heals and an AS buff, which is solid.

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On the subject of Nid... It's still really early, and it'll be interesting to see how she develops, but ultimately? I don't see her being very popular for awhile. I think her poke game got hit a bit. (Probably needed, as much as it pains me to say that.) I think building the pure AP glass cannon nid that everyone used to play is non-viable, so her only viability comes in the form of Tanky-Bruiser nid and AD assassin Nid..both semi viable and certainly interesting to see, but ultimately? there are other champions that fill that role better. I feel like she has less build options and will only be played top now which makes me sad. I was kinda excited to see her as a potential support (especially with cougar at the start of the game) but she seems far to fragile for that. Time will tell, ultimately.. I love/hate the changes to her kit.

As for the item-changes, I think they are all good and positive changes. ADCs have needed some buffs for a bit now. Personally, I'm hoping they do something with Hurricane down the line, but I think overall its a good change for the game. Also excited to see Twitch/Lucain get the nerf stick a bit, they were in every SINGLE ranked game that I've played. It was getting annoying.

sorry to say but your thoughts on nidalee are wrong

spears still do crazy damage from deep, and now you can always catch the person you're trying to kill after hitting one due to your new passive - not to mention if you kill them/any minion your pounce cooldown resets to 1 second. buy lich bane and kill everyone

also support nid with the new support item gives 45% attack speed with her heal, and traps are actually useful because regardless of AP it's %health. think about that one

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Hey Guys! Just giving a shout out to all OCR Heroes and/or anyone that wants to join us for some ranked play! I was talking to Koriantor and we've felt that it's time to return to the field of League but still keeping it casual for now and just doing 5's for fun. Message me if you're interested. Thanks!

I've been getting back into League lately, so maybe I'll see you guys online.

I think that AD Nidalee is making a strong comeback with the new kit.

What does everyone think of the 4.10 changes to Nidalee, and the new items?

Nidalee main chiming in. The hitbox change to the spears was good, the old hitbox was pretty messed up. It makes landing spears a lot harder, but coupled with the damage nerf, it's supremely unsatisfying to land a long range spear.

I get that a good Nid was annoying to play against before, but she was by no means overpowered. It was an unnecessary rework to what was a fairly well balanced champion with plenty of counter options.

That out of the way, the new Nidalee runs with a few interesting ideas, but I feel like it missed the mark in a few ways. I'm gonna talk mainly about AP Nidalee, which is what I play and is now slightly underpowered, though I hear AD Nidalee is a little too powerful atm. I'm not much of a toplaner though, so other people can talk about that.

Making her Cougar form available at one would have been a buff to her pre-6, except her kit changes have made her significantly weaker in the early game than before. Her base damages are too low for her to make a significant impact in lane, or roaming.

She gets bullied by just about every popular midlaner, and even champions I was surprised to struggle to lane against, like Karma and Kassadin. Everyone outpokes her and out-trades her pre-6. There are two main ways to play her early game: stock up on potions and farm safely, or all in ASAP. If you can get the early assassination off, it takes a lot of pressure off of you. Time to farm freely, lane pressure, map pressure, the works. But you are absolutely at a disadvantage in almost every matchup. Winning your lane requires an unexpected outplay. In fact, every single First Blood I have attained as Nidalee 2.0 has required the use of my Flash.

That said, Nidalee gets stronger in the mid game. If you can outfarm the other team, get your power spike before they have a chance to build MR, you can start dealing decent damage with spears, to the squishy ADCs if no one else, and get yourself fed before you fall off to defensive items in the late game. Once you hit three complete items (typically Sorc Shoes + Morellonomicon + Seraph's/Rabadon's/Void Staff) you have an opportunity to build a lead, and with her new assassination potential you can snowball hard enough to carry into the late game. The more fed you are, the slower you fall off as they build defensive items.

In summary: Farm safely in the early game, but don't be afraid to Flash for a kill. Build and extend a lead in the mid game, you can snowball pretty hard during this power spike. Close out before the game goes too late, once that ADC gets a Banshee's, you're out of assassination targets.

AP Nidalee 2.0 features some cool new mechanics. She's lots of fun, but she's also weaker overall than other AP mids. Whether it's poke or siege or supporting or assassination, specialized champs like Ziggs and LeBlanc and Akali and Kayle do it better. AP Nidalee is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

spears still do crazy damage from deep

Sorry, but this is not true at all. Only to a no defensive-item squishy, only in the mid game with sufficient damage items, and only at max-range does it do damage that could be described as "crazy", which is maybe 40% health at most. With the hitbox changes, it's almost not worth it to try for those long range spears. Especially because if you land a max range spear, you're out of range even for an empowered Pounce. With no follow-up, that ADC's gonna be back at full after a brief trip to wraiths.

Edited by ArmadonRK

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I completely agree with you on all points Armadon. She feels very much a 'jack of all trades' which is okay and can work, but I just don't think we'll see her in competitive play nearly as much. Time will tell!

On the subject of Nid support, I play almost exclusively support and am currently working my way through Gold playing support. I don't think she's viable as a support currently. Here is why:

1.) Her lack of control will doom her. If Blitzcrank, Thresh, or Leona land an initiate, the target MUST flash or die. Even if they flash, they've lost the exchange completely and are probably at a health disadvantage. (These are 3 of the most commonly played supports in the current meta.)

2.) She is too fragile. Even if your rocking tank items out of the gate, pouncing on a duo team is a death sentence, doubly so if they have ANY access to CC. It's very risky, and just not worth it. It's like playing an Annie support without the CC.

3.) Her scaling options as a support are poor. You'll invariably wind up a fragile spear bot like before, only you just won't do as much. Her new kit requires you to utilize all of her abilities to be effective. You must have some tankiness on the new nid, its very difficult to play through a support laning phase as nidalee and buy tanky items.

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I agree on the support point. Her traps no longer shred armor, her heal was reduced, her attack speed buff was shortened, and her poke was lessened. All of these things make her a less effective support than she was before the rework. And she was an awful support already.

She becomes an all in support with no CC, no tankiness, and no peel.

We absolutely won't see her in competitive play because every comp that uses her will want Ziggs instead. (Super-secret sleeper OP replacement: AP Ezreal. Slightly less range, but comparable damage and mobility to old Nidalee. I'm hoping people realize this and he starts to see competitive play, especially with the ADC itemization changes that made him less effective in the botlane.) It's not just the change in her power level, but the fact that she no longer fills the strategic niche that made her competitive.

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Nidalee main chiming in. The hitbox change to the spears was good, the old hitbox was pretty messed up. It makes landing spears a lot harder, but coupled with the damage nerf, it's supremely unsatisfying to land a long range spear.

Compared to before. That's the point

I get that a good Nid was annoying to play against before, but she was by no means overpowered. It was an unnecessary rework to what was a fairly well balanced champion with plenty of counter options.

Balance is not the issue - supreme safety, high late game reward and no risk are 100% counterplay free

That out of the way, the new Nidalee runs with a few interesting ideas, but I feel like it missed the mark in a few ways. I'm gonna talk mainly about AP Nidalee, which is what I play and is now slightly underpowered, though I hear AD Nidalee is a little too powerful atm. I'm not much of a toplaner though, so other people can talk about that.

Making her Cougar form available at one would have been a buff to her pre-6, except her kit changes have made her significantly weaker in the early game than before. Her base damages are too low for her to make a significant impact in lane, or roaming.

She gets bullied by just about every popular midlaner, and even champions I was surprised to struggle to lane against, like Karma and Kassadin. Everyone outpokes her and out-trades her pre-6. There are two main ways to play her early game: stock up on potions and farm safely, or all in ASAP.

both of these are dumb. outfarm your opponent, hit spears if they're there, use traps to stay safe. if you hit a spear, your cougar all in will do near half of their health, not including the spear that already hit. make them back off, heal yourself and go back to farming

That said, Nidalee gets stronger in the mid game. If you can outfarm the other team, get your power spike before they have a chance to build MR, you can start dealing decent damage with spears, to the squishy ADCs if no one else, and get yourself fed before you fall off to defensive items in the late game. Once you hit three complete items (typically Sorc Shoes + Morellonomicon + Seraph's/Rabadon's/Void Staff) you have an opportunity to build a lead, and with her new assassination potential you can snowball hard enough to carry into the late game. The more fed you are, the slower you fall off as they build defensive items.

Your first issue is that you're not buying lich bane. Free 450 damage cougar q pretty good

In summary: Farm safely in the early game, but don't be afraid to Flash for a kill. Build and extend a lead in the mid game, you can snowball pretty hard during this power spike. Close out before the game goes too late, once that ADC gets a Banshee's, you're out of assassination targets.

AP Nidalee 2.0 features some cool new mechanics. She's lots of fun, but she's also weaker overall than other AP mids. Whether it's poke or siege or supporting or assassination, specialized champs like Ziggs and LeBlanc and Akali and Kayle do it better. AP Nidalee is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Sorry, but this is not true at all. Only to a no defensive-item squishy, only in the mid game with sufficient damage items, and only at max-range does it do damage that could be described as "crazy", which is maybe 40% health at most.

I can't believe this is what you think is 'not enough damage'

you do 40% on a 6~ second cooldown. If you hit more than one spear you can kill guaranteed with cougar form, which is safer than it's ever been because you get pounce back immediately after killing someone

With the hitbox changes, it's almost not worth it to try for those long range spears. Especially because if you land a max range spear, you're out of range even for an empowered Pounce.

speed from your passive puts you in range very easily you just have to leave your little 1500 range bubble to do things now, which everyone else in the game appreciates

With no follow-up, that ADC's gonna be back at full after a brief trip to wraiths.

tl;dr you're playing new nidalee like old nidalee which is dumb and designed not to work - that's why they reworked her in the first place

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Compared to before. That's the point

The benefit of landing the spear is not equal to the difficulty. One way or another, it's an issue.

Balance is not the issue - supreme safety, high late game reward and no risk are 100% counterplay free

Vision counters Nidalee so hard. Wards prevent her from moving freely around the map and hurling spears from safety. Dodging her spears was always easy with boots, and Banshee's Veil just turned her off entirely. Before the rework, and after. This "no counterplay" bullshit gets spouted way too much, and almost every time it's because people don't ward enough.

both of these are dumb. outfarm your opponent, hit spears if they're there, use traps to stay safe. if you hit a spear, your cougar all in will do near half of their health, not including the spear that already hit. make them back off, heal yourself and go back to farming

This is dumb. Every opponent can pressure you off your wave so that you're forced to farm under your turret. Against any champ with a real ultimate, if you don't get a kill before 6, their power spike will shut you down. It's useless to land a spear and take out half their health with your combo, if you're just going to die when you go in because you were already harassed to half health before the fight began.

And good luck healing with that mana pool.

Your first issue is that you're not buying lich bane. Free 450 damage cougar q pretty good

An early Lich Bane may be good for damage, but you're just gonna dive in and die. If you're lucky, you'll get a kill in the process. Nidalee is now more a cleanup champion than a real assassin. You still want your spears to hurt because you're not going to go in after every one, so there are higher priority items than Lich Bane by far.

I can't believe this is what you think is 'not enough damage'

you do 40% on a 6~ second cooldown. If you hit more than one spear you can kill guaranteed with cougar form, which is safer than it's ever been because you get pounce back immediately after killing someone

Ziggs and Xerath can do the nearly the same damage at the same range, with AoE skills on lower cooldowns that aren't blocked by minions.

Let's not kid ourselves here, you're never going to land more than one spear. Not with the new hitbox.

speed from your passive puts you in range very easily you just have to leave your little 1500 range bubble to do things now, which everyone else in the game appreciates

Passive only applies in brush, max damage spear is 1300 range, empowered Pounce is 700 range, and you no longer have a passive movespeed boost in Cougar form. Doesn't add up, sorry.

TL;DR Playing new Nidalee the way new Nidalee was designed to be played, she's still a weak pick.

Edited by ArmadonRK

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Passive only applies in brush, max damage spear is 1300 range, empowered Pounce is 700 range, and you no longer have a passive movespeed boost in Cougar form. Doesn't add up, sorry.

Well clearly you're not paying attention this is enough for me to dismiss your opinions

YOU GET A 30% MOVESPEED BOOST TOWARDS THE ENEMY IF YOU HIT THEM WITH AN ABILITY HOW HAVE YOU NOT NOTICED THIS IN 'ALL OF YOUR TESTING'

as someone who didn't even like playing nidalee before and is now wrecking teams 14-3 ish regularly your opinion on 'your character' seems suspiciously biased towards what you liked to do before

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YOU GET A 30% MOVESPEED BOOST TOWARDS THE ENEMY IF YOU HIT THEM WITH AN ABILITY HOW HAVE YOU NOT NOTICED THIS IN 'ALL OF YOUR TESTING'

This is correct, my bad. I didn't notice because practically, engaging after a max range spear has always involved diving the backline in a teamfight, which is suicide, so I've never thought to try it. In lane the speed bonus has never come into play.

So in spite of this being the case, it has not been a helpful attribute.

as someone who didn't even like playing nidalee before and is now wrecking teams 14-3 ish regularly your opinion on 'your character' seems suspiciously biased towards what you liked to do before

I don't know what to tell you. She's weak enough that I'd attribute that kind of success to dumb luck more than anything else. She simply doesn't match up to the available alternatives at this point.

Honestly, I'm not convinced you've played the rework extensively, and if you're happy to dismiss my opinions on the matter, I'm happy to be done with this fruitless argument.

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This is correct, my bad. I didn't notice because practically, engaging after a max range spear has always involved diving the backline in a teamfight, which is suicide, so I've never thought to try it. In lane the speed bonus has never come into play.

that means you're doing it wrong. which speaks to my point pretty strongly.

i'm done here

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This is correct, my bad. I didn't notice because practically, engaging after a max range spear has always involved diving the backline in a teamfight, which is suicide, so I've never thought to try it. In lane the speed bonus has never come into play.

So in spite of this being the case, it has not been a helpful attribute.

Essentially, unless it is clearly _before_ and not during a fight, you shouldn't be throwing max range spears anymore, ever. Think of spear not primarily as a damage tool, but as a means to set up W pounce --> E swipe --> auto attack --> Q execute --> W pounce out --> morph to human, repeat. Spear (and trap, but that's harder to guarantee) now gives you Rengar's leap range! Use that -- diving after spear throw is now the _ideal_ play, since the E claw swipe resets the W leap cooldown, which allows you to leap away, back towards your team. I'm not saying it'll get you out every time, but it works for me a lot, especially when your team follows you and there are other threats to deal with.

I agree with you, Armadon, that AD Nidalee is probably better than AP Nidalee currently -- don't think of her as a long range poke character anymore. Play her as if you were playing Diana with a long range attack (and build her similarly as well) and you'll do much better. Similarly, I find that I have the most success on 4.10 Nidalee when I build either Triforce + BotRK (AD) or Lich Bane + Liandry's (AP) into full tank. Because she fights up close now, she has to have a lot more toughness than before.

Support Nidalee has changed drastically, by the way: Traps deal an outrageous amount of damage if you max them first, and you can get them everywhere. Any support Nidalee throwing spears when it's not to force cat combo in a chase is just wasting mana. I'd go so far as to say that no other character controls the bushes as well as Nidalee, currently. I agree that the lack of CC makes her a situational support, but if you can harass enough that the diving Leona is killing herself to get into position to make a move, that's still victory.

Last note: The proposed changes to Nidalee for 4.11 should make her a really wicked jungler -- I've already found considerable success playing the new Nidalee in the jungle, and I think I will continue to do so. Starting 4.11 I also intend to get Nashor's on her...

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Use that -- diving after spear throw is now the _ideal_ play, since the E claw swipe resets the W leap cooldown, which allows you to leap away, back towards your team.

You can leap in from a glorious 700 range, and get a reset that will attack a Hunted enemy at another glorious 700 range.

Or you can one legged hop away a piddly 375 range. Pounce is not a reliable escape tool after an all-in, and the reset is on a 1 second delay rather than instant. This is the big reason Nidalee is a less effective assassin than other reset assassins. Kha'zix, Trist, Katarina, Akali all have more reliable mobility tools for chain-kills and escapes. Non-reset assassins like LeBlanc, Zed and Talon also have more reliable in-combat mobility.

I'm not saying it'll get you out every time, but it works for me a lot, especially when your team follows you and there are other threats to deal with.

It does work a lot, and AP Nidalee players who enjoy and practice Nidalee will find success on her. She's not trash-tier.

But if we define strong as above average, Nidalee isn't that, and that's an opinion I was trying to dissuade The Derrit of. She is a little weak right now, slightly below par, but certainly not terrible by any means.

I've had good games on her. 12/4/3; 14/6/4; 12/3/5; 9/5/7 are a few good games that come to mind. Alongside the 3/5/5, or the 3/7/2 or the 6/4/0.

I will continue to main Nidalee, and I will continue to find success on her because I enjoy her and I have practiced and will practice her extensively. But I expect finding that success will be more difficult on Nidalee than it is on most popular midlane alternatives.

Play her as if you were playing Diana with a long range attack (and build her similarly as well) and you'll do much better.

This is a good comparison, though I think Nidalee is in a slightly better spot than Diana, who has been in need of buffs for a while now. But no argument can be made that Diana isn't a little weak herself.

Support Nidalee has changed drastically, by the way: Traps deal an outrageous amount of damage if you max them first, and you can get them everywhere. Any support Nidalee throwing spears when it's not to force cat combo in a chase is just wasting mana. I'd go so far as to say that no other character controls the bushes as well as Nidalee, currently. I agree that the lack of CC makes her a situational support, but if you can harass enough that the diving Leona is killing herself to get into position to make a move, that's still victory.

I just don't think Nidalee has the mana to sustain that ranged harass. With a Doran's Ring I can barely lay down sufficient defensive traps in the mid lane, I can only imagine how mana-starved she'd be in the bot-lane. With low base damages, she can't afford the reduced gold income, since all her damage comes from items now, and with her reduced heal and AS steroid, she's playing third or fourth fiddle to a Sona, who offers better healing and utility, and stronger harass with her passive.

Last note: The proposed changes to Nidalee for 4.11 should make her a really wicked jungler -- I've already found considerable success playing the new Nidalee in the jungle, and I think I will continue to do so. Starting 4.11 I also intend to get Nashor's on her...

I haven't tried her in the jungle yet, myself, but I definitely will give it a shot.

An interesting thing I saw on ProBuilds was CLG Link using AD Caster runes and masteries on Midalee, then building her traditional AP. I thought it was really clever, and worth testing.

Her pre-6 scaling is low enough that 20 AP isn't going to make or break the lane. You still get the best masteries: CDR, magic pen, Dangerous Game, Executioner. But with a little AD from runes and masteries, and a Doran's Blade, it might go a long way to improving her first few levels, with practically no effect on her mid-game scaling.

Mana will be more of an issue, but playing conservative with the traps for a bit should rectify that. It's something I think is worth trying.

He also built a DFG on her, which is interesting. Since Nidalee is a reset assassin of sorts now, it might be a good early buy.

Edited by ArmadonRK

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I agree with the majority of what you said. On surviving during the all in: if I am building full tank Nidalee, I rarely have trouble pouncing in and pouncing out, even if I eat one CC spell during the process. If you are building her all damage, then sure. I'd rate her below Kha'zix for sure, but I think that she provides more utility than the others you mentioned there. One champion she works particularly well against (as AD, tanky build) is Yasuo -- your burst actually outclasses his on the timescale of a single combo rotation, which is often all you'll need to finish him off. If I survive the ult, I am yet to have anything happen but immediately eating him.

One caveat for support Nidalee: Spellthief's Edge provides enough mana regen that you will never run out, assuming you only use traps. You shouldn't be having any mana issues if you don't spear throw, and your ADC isn't in desperate need of heals.

Definitely trying AD masteries but building AP -- that might work well in top lane as a counterpick also...

Edit: Oh, and the comparison to Diana was only for gameplay style -- Nidalee's numbers are better in every way right now, and her kit overall is flat-out superior imo. Diana is in need of some kind of rework. I'd like to see the vaccum moved to the ult (given more stun / power) and the dash lose its double reset gimmick.

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