League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Tensei]

No, I am implying that Dominion is less popular because it significantly changes the fundamentals of the game. Taking away lasthitting would significantly change the fundamentals of the game as well!

It's a way too risky move for Riot to be making. You can just elect not to play Dominion if you don't like it, but something that affects the 'main' game to such a degree will affect the entire playerbase, and as much as LoL players love to shout how they rid themselves of the oppressive, archaic shackles of DotA, somehow I doubt that changing 'their' game on such a basic level would go over well.

I think you're underestimating how much balance could be thrown off depending on the alternative they implemented. If anything, attack points/projectile speed differences would suddenly matter a whole lot less as there's no need to time your attacks anymore, and depending on the implementation it could also strongly affect ranged vs. melee balance.

The reason I suggested other games to play is because in the end, Riot isn't gonna implement anything like this anyway, since they're positively allergic to anything that could ever so slightly disturb their beloved 1-1-2+jungler metagame.

[Rambo]

instead of last hitting, let there be a mineral field in the wells. And let players invest their starting gold in miners. The miners will act as a substitute for last hitting. Once they mine enough gold they the players can choose to make more miners or maybe some other units. Because later in the game the peons... er.. miners become less relevant compared to gryphon ri..... other more combative units!

Its an innovative idea for the genre imo.

[The Derrit]

if you remove lasthitting you pretty much turn laning phase into 'wait for minions to die for 15 minutes.' like seriously, a team that pushes hard and harasses will get the exact same amount of gold as the team who doesn't attack a single time and just stands within the correct area, and does absolutely nothing but not die

it takes away any motivation to play aggressively in one fell swoop or really do anything at all until you have however much gold you want

[zircon]

I think this worsens the problem of paying too much attention to creeps. Now in order for me to make the most money, I need to hit creeps as much as possible versus only last hitting.

The other problem with this system is that champions like Shyvana become advantaged. Shyvana already can just stand on creeps with W on and kill them if they're low enough health. With this system she can stand on them and gain gold no matter what, harass the enemy champion, and deny at the same time. Granted she can already do the latter two but this makes champions with an PBAoE skill even better.

Well, numbers can be tweaked, but the basic idea is that you get gold as you hit minions regardless of when you hit them. Balancing for AOE skills could be done by reducing gold gain from AOE skills, or just see what happens since doing that will push your lane severely and make you more vulnerable to ganks.

if you remove lasthitting you pretty much turn laning phase into 'wait for minions to die for 15 minutes.' like seriously, a team that pushes hard and harasses will get the exact same amount of gold as the team who doesn't attack a single time and just stands within the correct area, and does absolutely nothing but not die

At least IMO, and I think the author of the original proposal would disagree, the idea isn't to take away actions/decisions from the laning phase but rather allow the player to focus their attention more on game objectives like killing the opponents and pushing towers as opposed to just running around waiting for life bars to be in the right spot. It's sort of an absurd little minigame if you think about it.

The reason I suggested other games to play is because in the end, Riot isn't gonna implement anything like this anyway, since they're positively allergic to anything that could ever so slightly disturb their beloved 1-1-2+jungler metagame.

They're definitely moving toward making roamers more viable and bringing down overly powerful jungling champions. Though I didn't have the chance to watch the games, apparently the IEM was dominated by a team using a crazy strategy that didn't fit in the meta at all. There's still room for it. Yeah, at lower level games everyone does standard 1-1-2 but I remember pretty distinctly that HoN was the same way. 99% of games had very similar lane setups.

[kitty]

Well, numbers can be tweaked, but the basic idea is that you get gold as you hit minions regardless of when you hit them. Balancing for AOE skills could be done by reducing gold gain from AOE skills, or just see what happens since doing that will push your lane severely and make you more vulnerable to ganks.

The thing is that maximum gold is achieved by pushing and killing creeps before your creeps can no matter what the numbers are. Pushing a lane does have its risks but a smart player wards and watches the map. Pushing is also encouraged because the enemy tower can then be used to deny gold more than it can be already.

A problem that goes hand in hand with this system is that newer players will want to push because they hear that to get the most gold they have to attack creeps vs. last hitting. And even if you tell these new players to only last hit that means they have to learn this double standard of playing.

[Garian]

Guys, guys. Duo Demacia mid. Engage!

[Crossing]

I recently got Into LoL, and decided that I'm proud of my skills enough to post here. My In-game username is Crosing2000 (big surprise there). I've decided to play differend characters systematically, play one till I am fairly competent , move on to another (but still refresh my skills with that character occasionally) until I have a fair lineup of heroes.

[Dyne]

In game I'm Dyne2057. Hit me up, I like this game.

[eternal Zero]

if your response to this argument is to say that people should go play another game, I don't think you understand the point of the conversation

No he gets it. I said it quite plainly: last hitting is an inherent part of this game. Whether or not you like it is up to you but it defines the genre. Like footsies to Street Fighter. You want to remove it and replace it? Like having push blocking with a hyper aggressive game? You get a different game. You get Marvel. You don't like footsies but still want to play Street Fighter? You don't hear players clamoring for removal of footsies and a shift from links to target combos because they don't like them. You just see them play Marvel.

In this cause you don't play LoL, you play another MOBA (still fucking hate that term btw) instead.

Once you're entering a set game-space you either accept the created rules as they are or you leave. You can change the minor things sure. Give a hero a crippling .1 ratio reduction. But like you're saying, they won't remove flash cause a third of the heroes are balanced around it. They won't remove last hitting because the entire game at its core is based around it.

Also I do share Tensei's sentiment. Riot won't do anything to rock the boat. They're too scared to make any big changes because of how tried and true the current formula is. They're too scared to do a lot of things.

Stealth rework? Nope we gotta use our resources to keep pumping out new (arguably) derivative heroes every two weeks so we don't have time to fix heroes like Evelynn or Twitch making them largely unplayable in most situations. Our resources are all about making heroes that "can get in, do some damage, and then get out."

[Bleck]

No he gets it. I said it quite plainly: last hitting is an inherent part of this game. Whether or not you like it is up to you but it defines the genre. Like footsies to Street Fighter. You want to remove it and replace it? Like having push blocking with a hyper aggressive game? You get a different game. You get Marvel. You don't like footsies but still want to play Street Fighter? You don't hear players clamoring for removal of footsies and a shift from links to target combos because they don't like them. You just see them play Marvel.

I don't disagree with your comparison in this case but what I'm saying is that I think Riot has made it clear that what they want (not what they have, obviously) is to have the 'Marvel' of Dotas

why would they keep some of the archaic mechanics from Dota, and not others? there's just no reason to move forwards as much as LoL has and then suddenly decide to stop

well, no good reason anyways

also yeah

MOBA (still fucking hate that term btw) instead.

LoL is the only dota I play with any regularity and I think MOBA is pretty much the dumbest term

Once you're entering a set game-space you either accept the created rules as they are or you leave. You can change the minor things sure. Give a hero a crippling .1 ratio reduction. But like you're saying, they won't remove flash cause a third of the heroes are balanced around it. They won't remove last hitting because the entire game at its core is based around it.

yeah this is probably true

I maintain that last hitting would be best removed, but Riot is kind of trying to stay as steady as possible and not even changing the stuff that definitely needs to be changed so it's pretty unlikely that they'll change this I think

Stealth rework? Nope we gotta use our resources to keep pumping out new (arguably) derivative heroes every two weeks so we don't have time to fix heroes like Evelynn or Twitch making them largely unplayable in most situations. Our resources are all about making heroes that "can get in, do some damage, and then get out."

how fucking difficult is it to change two goddamn champions I mean seriously

it's literally been a year since the last notable changes to Twitch, it's fucking inexcusable that he's still in the state he's in

I don't play Evelynn but I assume it's the same level of bullshit

[Dexie]

Shurelia left Riot a while back, that's why the stealth remake hasn't happened. She was completely in charge of it, and no one else at Riot gives enough of a fuck to care about it.

If they're not JUNGLING CHAMPIONS WITH TRIFORCE THAT DEAL TONS OF DAMAGE, no one at Riot cares.

Shurelia's the only one that cared about support champions too, that's why we haven't gotten any new ones since Karma.

It's way easier for them to just ignore Twitch and Eve, instead of having to fix their problems. I like Riot, but geez, they're completely stupid most the time.

[zircon]

Leona is arguably a support champion too. Their explanation for not adding more is that you can really only have one support on a team at a time, while the other four slots can be bruisers, ranged AD, junglers, AP carries, etc. Not to mention some comps don't have any support at all making it a pretty underplayed role. I kind of agree with that logic, but I think the solution is to make champs that CAN be played as support and do a lot to help the lane without being heal/stun bots.

As for balance/rework stuff I get the impression that Riot has a pretty big roster of designers split between different teams. I don't think it's as easy as one person wanting to make a change and that change getting implemented. With as many players as they have they are probably very sensitive to anything they do, and I'm sure each change has to go through layers and levels of approval and testing before it can be even considered as a live change.

Edited January 29, 2012 by zircon

[eternal Zero]

Their explanation is bullshit. This game is full of guys who like to get kills and like to think they're capable of carrying. They want to be able to put heroes at a full 975/6300 price point and have as many people buy them as possible. This is also the reason they don't make any good changes when balancing. They're too focused on keeping their revenue up instead of developing the game. Yes, it's a totally valid reason from a business standpoint but at least treat your community like they're intelligent and say so. Don't try to cover it up with bullshit like "there's only one support on the team therefore we can make zero changes to the metagame and we can't add any more of them to the game." Not to mention that if they want their current stint in the eSports community to remain the way it is then they better fucking start thinking about balancing a proper competitive game cause DotA 2 is coming and what kept DotA from remaining at the top were that LoL and HoN had reconnect features, didn't work off of old architecture, and had better spectator modes. Those advantages won't remain for long.

Ahri was supposed to be my cool support hero. I love her character and design to death but where is the support to make up for it?

Seriously how many more "get in and do damage and then get out" or derivative 4 nuke + 1 CC casters are we going to get?

Why can't you make some solid push/support champions? Why can't I have my push team metagame? Why can't I have more characters that can fit any role well? Where is my Slither? Where is my Krobelus? Where is my Enchantress? Oh right. You're too busy releasing Akali version 2.0 with Generic Caster X with new small body model! Oh so Victor was supposed to be interesting? Then give him the numbers to make him viable cause otherwise he is complete ass.

Man it probably has a lot to do with the fact that I did nothing but study today and am tired but fuck Riot, seriously. S2 had issues porting the right heroes into the game and making solid balance decisions and Riot isn't much better but at least the base game isn't as awful. Just appoint someone as design director and fucking do something interesting. Why does DotA keep having cool things after all these years? Cause a single person is running the show and doesn't have bullshit to go through. Heaven's Halberd? An item for supports that can disarm the enemy carry with its activate? FUCKING AWESOME. Could we see that in LoL? Probably not.

If only they'd follow the only patch every few months model I might be less angry. OH BUT WAIT. That'd ruin their revenue stream so fuck if that'll ever happen. Only small derivative changes where "significant nerfs" to champions are miniscule and changes that add up to making heroes useless are forgotten because there are too many to keep track of.

/rant

[prophetik music]

so guys.

how do you really feel?

[zircon]

Haha. I agree with a good chunk of that, but to be fair, the game is fairly balanced competitively. The top tier of champions is pretty big and there aren't a whole lot that are just bad picks. Even ones like Vlad and Morde, previously thought of as underpowered, have been used with success. HoN and DotA's hero rosters are all over the place which seems to be more of a balance challenge, considering HoN has always had major balance problems. Haven't played enough DotA/2 to speak to that, though.

[Tensei]

The point isn't that there are a lot of bad picks, but that there is so much overlap in roles that tanky DPS Xin clone #3 is ever so slightly stronger than Xin clone #5 so there is barely ever a reason to pick the latter because they simply don't bring anything unique to the table.

[zircon]

But that's not really true, as recent tournaments have shown. For example Vlad and Morde were often overlooked as being weaker than champs like Brand or Cass, but are now becoming more popular and viable as people realize what they bring to the table can be gamechanging. Likewise, M5 with their AD Kennen strategy is turning out to be on the level of HoN's Electrician craze, Shyvana (previously thought to be low tier) is suddenly dominating, etc. I can't think of many champions that are simply worse than others. Even AD carries like Miss Fortune, considered to be generally not as good as Vayne, Graves etc. have a place in high-level play (countering heal-heavy compositions).

Riot's recent champions have been generally boring but everyone agrees with that, even Riot. They said as of this next champion they're trying to bring in more interesting abilities/mechanics and kits. I guess we'll see if that's true.

[BardicKnowledge]

I definitely agree that there are too many tanky DPS heroes atm. I would also like to see myriad strategies; someone who pushes extremely hard would be amazing, as would more support characters who aren't healers. For instance, I love playing Janna and think her kit is one of the game's best designed. Give us more support heroes, and more variety.

My only complaint about the Lee Sin nerf is that there are _lots_ of other tanky DPS junglers ready to take his place, so changing just one character (who probably did need the small nerf, I'll be honest) isn't going to fix an underlying problem with the current metagame.

[The Derrit]

I definitely agree that there are too many tanky DPS heroes atm. I would also like to see myriad strategies; someone who pushes extremely hard would be amazing,

people don't seem to remember this but heimerdinger pushes really hard in a solo lane. i had to mid against a heimer who brought promote and in lane i had no answer, he could be on my tower while i was still there, and be safe behind all of his minions.

also sivir, or master yi

[Tensei]

You can't add unique champions like a dedicated pusher. Those are anti-fun!

[eternal Zero]

people don't seem to remember this but heimerdinger pushes really hard in a solo lane. i had to mid against a heimer who brought promote and in lane i had no answer, he could be on my tower while i was still there, and be safe behind all of his minions.

also sivir, or master yi

All three of these can be dealt with by anyone competent. Heimer turrets are expensive, slow to replenish, and easy to kill. Don't let them build up and you're fine. Sivir doesn't have the mana base to keep up a push unless you're dumb enough to throw slow easy to absorb spells at her. Master Yi is made of paper and doesn't do to well against any defender which is why you see him side push all day long.

[zircon]

Well the problem isn't clearing minions, really. Tons of champs can kill minions really quickly with minimal damage to friendly minions. The problem is doing fast, reliable damage to towers. In HoN/DotA, you have heroes that can do intense damage to towers with abilities, sometimes from a pretty long range. There are also heroes with pets or minions that can severely damage the tower at no risk to the heroes. You're basically forcing a teamfight because if the defenders don't react, their tower will go down very quickly.

The other thing is that LoL towers (a) do a lot more damage than in HoN, ( get an armor bonus with no minions around, and © snowball in damage when attacking the same target. So all of these things make it much harder to have any sort of pushing strategy.

[eternal Zero]

Riot's recent champions have been generally boring but everyone agrees with that, even Riot. They said as of this next champion they're trying to bring in more interesting abilities/mechanics and kits. I guess we'll see if that's true.

That's what they said about Viktor. His kit is interesting but his numbers hold him back. They're too afraid of new things. Even if the next hero after generic yordle caster has a cool kit unless they're support it's not going to be any good.

[Bleck]

yeah I really wish Viktor didn't suck so much

here have an interesting caster but sorry his moves don't do nearly as much damage as the casters where your gameplay strategy is to walk up to the carry and push QWER

[Garian]

Unique Active : shields you and nearby allies for 50 + 10/level damage.

As if that is going to have any impact on anything!