Tensei Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I'm just pointing out how the "if you want x in this game, why don't you go play this other game that already has x in it"-argument apparently is only valid if Bleck gets to use it! I think that removing lasthitting changes the game on such a fundamental level that it'd be like, for example, changing the main objective to Capture The Flag. In this case I feel like it's justified to suggest a different game that was balanced from the outset around a different gold mechanic than lasthitting. Adding a single champion who happens to have more intuitive multiple unit control doesn't affect the game to the same degree at all, so suggesting SC2 (which is an entirely different game, in a different genre) as a replacement is pretty silly IMO. E: Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you play a micro-intensive champion, so they could pretty comfortably add it without affecting the portion of the player base that dislikes multiple unit control. Removing lasthitting on the other hand... Edited January 31, 2012 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Okay. Yes, Bleck's style of argument is equally as bad. Do we know anything about the new champ other than Riot's alleged promise to make it interesting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nase Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 thing with lasthitting (denying even moreso), it is archaic, but as mentioned it's a central mechanic and it just works really well. it IS fun once you get good at it. it's a technically dated and fiddly minigame alright. so what? it's part of what makes dota great for the people who stuck with it. dota/hon simply is the most complex and strategically/tactically rewarding game i've ever played. Lol is alright and all but definitely the shallower experience, and yes, it's because they tinkered with the formula and got rid of a lot of the fiddly WCIII-based stuff without really adding anything to compensate. i'm repeating myself here, but i thought pretty much like bleck for maybe a year after i started playing hon. there was a phase where i wanted to just stop playing because i realised how much the game was centered around $$$ and how annoying it is to maximise your $$$ gain. what i've come to realise: dota is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. you're meant to drown in crazy multitasking, you're meant to get hopelessly owned by players that know every obscure design detail by heart. if bleck thinks that learning all this stuff is a waste of time, that's alright, it's completely subjective anyway. speaking for myself here, i've probably played more hon/dota now than i've played any other game in my life. purely subjectively speaking, it kinda is the best video game. period. sounds stupidly fanboyish, but it's how i feel. the only other game i know that has the same lasting appeal for me is chess. as with chess, i'm not the best player around, but i know dota well enough to say that every core mechanic in there contributes positively to the experience. if you don't like it, wait until a game with a smoother yet equally deep mechanic comes around. i'll be playing that too. until then, shut up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT FGT K??? :D:D: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Okay. Yes, Bleck's style of argument is equally as bad. Do we know anything about the new champ other than Riot's alleged promise to make it interesting? Who, Ziggs? He's a skillshot based AP caster with no hard CC. Should be interesting to see how he plays out. Riot usually does a good job making their casters fun, so we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 No I'm talking about the one after. Ziggs will end up being decent but probably lackluster due to generic 4 nuke kit. Or his skill shot will be so good that Riot makes it so it does no damage like with Viktor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 No I'm talking about the one after. Ziggs will end up being decent but probably lackluster due to generic 4 nuke kit. Or his skill shot will be so good that Riot makes it so it does no damage like with Viktor. They clearly said though that since none of his skills are targetted and he has no hard CC, he does way better damage then someone with actually CC and nukes would. For the next champion...no idea, the usual leaks haven't been coming out since Viktor, so I'm completely in the dark for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 what i've come to realise:dota is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. you're meant to drown in crazy multitasking, you're meant to get hopelessly owned by players that know every obscure design detail by heart. yeah see this is a buzzword crutch; a difficult game does not as a rule have to have bad design elements example; Castlevania is exceedingly difficult, but there is not a single part of that game that is designed as badly as the concept of last hitting currently is zero is right in that I basically want lol to move away from dota - I think that tensei is still pretty much wrong in saying that last hitting is a fundamental part of the game when there are arguably many much better possibilities design-wise that serve the exact same purpose like despite everyone saying I'm a terrible guy for wanting lol to not have this shitty mechanic anymore and jumping on the subtle ad hominems approach, nobody has really given a good reason as to how zircon's proposed system wouldn't work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 zero is right in that I basically want lol to move away from dota - I think that tensei is still pretty much wrong in saying that last hitting is a fundamental part of the game when there are arguably many much better possibilities design-wise that serve the exact same purpose It IS a fundamental part of the game though. Think about it this way: if you'd do something relatively moderate like reducing the gold from last hits by 50%, but you'd increase gold ticks/tower gold correspondingly so it somewhat averages out, it would COMPLETELY break the current metagame. Maybe supports or roamers would suddenly become overpowered, or maybe you would start to see 3 AoE-heavy champs in a lane trying to push it down as quickly as possible. No doubt the early-game dynamics would feel completely different, and to a lot of people it just wouldn't feel like LoL anymore. And keep in mind that this is only with a reduced emphasis on lasthitting, not the complete removal of it. Can you say with 100% certainty that such a drastic change would significantly improve the game in every respect? I don't think anyone can, and Riot would not want to risk losing a portion of their playerbase, especially while their current model is working out amazingly for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Breaking this current stale and boring metagame is a bad thing? I thought we WANTED this metagame to get broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Changing the metagame in small increments is probably better than completely breaking it and having to start from a clean slate though. Evidently the game isn't THAT terrible, or all of you wouldn't still be playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 admittedly I play lol often because it's the only multiplayer game a lot of my friends play and even then I'm pretty sure it's because it's easier to pretend you're good at lol then it is to pretend you're good at tf2 basically what I'm saying is that I hate my friends and myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It's okay Bleck. I still love you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nase Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 what you're not getting bleck...it's a great mechanic. it simply is hardcore. fuck the buzz, i'll just take the word. it's hardcore in the sense that it takes some time to learn and appreciate. emphasis on APPRECIATE. i applaud other companies for branching out. i'm very open to changes of all kind, and i think the dota/moba/wtf principle could be carried on to wayy more casual grounds and still be great. you know, thinking about it, LoL should probably get rid of the last hitting, simply because last hitting without denying is quite boring. it does work really well in dota and hon though. design elements aren't automatically bad because you can't get into them. When i played Go, i hated how every piece is the same and how confusing the game looks. i liked chess better. that's ok. Go is probably still pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 you know, thinking about it, LoL should probably get rid of the last hitting, simply because last hitting without denying is quite boring. This is true. I find the laning phase in LoL incredibly dull, and it probably has to do with there not being any denying. I cant think of a gold distribution system that would make laning more exciting by eliminating last hits altogether though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Oh geez. The champion spotlight for Ziggs is up. He looks like he'll be SO MUCH FUN. I'm suddenly quite excited for this patch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This is true. I find the laning phase in LoL incredibly dull, and it probably has to do with there not being any denying. I cant think of a gold distribution system that would make laning more exciting by eliminating last hits altogether though. IMO it's WAY more exciting than HoN/Dota2, even in bot lane. Because mana is easier to come by, people are more encouraged to go for harass and kill attempts. Much like how Super Street Fighter IV discouraged defensive play in SFIV by reducing damage across the board (ENCOURAGING more combos and offense). It is not uncommon to see 10-15 kills within 10 minutes. Even if I'm in a relatively passive bottom farming lane I'm constantly going for harass and kills, particularly if we have a gank from jungle or mid. While HoN/DotA do encourage more roaming, LoL definitely has a ton of offensive play. In fact at IEM Kiev games were clocking in at like... 30 minutes on average because so much was happening early. Play with me sometime and I'll show you. Also, Ziggs looks really fun. His passive is boring but his abilities do reflect a nice change in design. I love that they are all skillshots and can be used for multiple purposes, particularly his satchel charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garian Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think I'm going to put my money (lol I spent too much on this fucking game get it) where my mouth is and stop playing again! It's obvious that Riot cares more about their shitty payscale businessmodel than their game. I've been alienated by them for a long time (when was the last time we saw a 4800 champ even?), and lately I find myself questioning why I'm even playing when I solo queue. It's addictive, but I don't necessarily find it fun when I have to change my playstyle to fit with 4 other assholes in order spend 50 minutes to just not lose... I'd rather go back to seeing Anivia/Mundo/Sion/Soraka/Corki vs Ezreal/Janna/Sivir/Soraka/Udyr than Xin/Xinclone/Xinclone/Malzahar/Sona vs Xin/Xinclone/Xinclone/Malzahar/Soraka but we all know that you can't sell old champs at the 10 dollar price point so fuck Riot. A line has to be established somewhere, and as gamers we should reclaim some semblance of dignity and say "enough" when that line is crossed. And most importantly remember: GL/HF edit: pre-emptive "I ain't even mad" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 . It's addictive, but I don't necessarily find it fun when I have to change my playstyle to fit with 4 other assholes in order spend 50 minutes to just not lose Kind of the point of a TEAM game, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 IMO it's WAY more exciting than HoN/Dota2, even in bot lane. Because mana is easier to come by, people are more encouraged to go for harass and kill attempts. Much like how Super Street Fighter IV discouraged defensive play in SFIV by reducing damage across the board (ENCOURAGING more combos and offense). It is not uncommon to see 10-15 kills within 10 minutes. Even if I'm in a relatively passive bottom farming lane I'm constantly going for harass and kills, particularly if we have a gank from jungle or mid. While HoN/DotA do encourage more roaming, LoL definitely has a ton of offensive play. In fact at IEM Kiev games were clocking in at like... 30 minutes on average because so much was happening early.Play with me sometime and I'll show you. I guess I've had the unfortunate displeasure of playing with and against people who prefer to safely farm than risk losing ground via harassing/killing attempts. Granted I've only played a handful of games (probably in the vicinity of 50), so maybe the higher rated games tend to shift away from a conservative, and thus boring laning phase. I just would have thought the reverse. I would play a ton more if there wasn't a champion pool rotation. I'd never have started playing HoN if I didn't have access to all the heroes for that matter (IE the way it is now). And if DotA2 takes the same approach I'll probably stop playing that too. lol Kind of the point of a TEAM game, don't you think? Being forced into a role because everyone else instalocks whatever the hell they feel like doesn't sound to me like much of a team game. It sounds like 5 individuals with a common goal more than anything. And this isn't a rare occurance for any of the games in this genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I would play a ton more if there wasn't a champion pool rotation. I'd never have started playing HoN if I didn't have access to all the heroes for that matter (IE the way it is now). And if DotA2 takes the same approach I'll probably stop playing that too. lol wait, you don't want to play because they don't give you everything right away? it's a free game, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah and honestly you can just spend $20-30 to get the boxed edition, which gives you a TON of champions plus RP to buy even more. Just like how HoN was (not the entire cast, but still, quite a big chunk.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 wait, you don't want to play because they don't give you everything right away? it's a free game, man. The game's addictive, sooo I play a lot. If you play a lot in a single week you see/play a lot of the same champions and it gets staaale. I like having 50+ heroes/champions to choose from. I know the games free, but Id rather pay a flat rate for a fuller game. I was happy to pay 30$ for hon. I'd happily pay upwards of 50$ for Dota2 if it means I'll always get to play what I want to play. Cosmetics on the side are super cool. But I don't like paying microtransactions for gameplay elements. EDIT: Yeah and honestly you can just spend $20-30 to get the boxed edition, which gives you a TON of champions plus RP to buy even more. Just like how HoN was (not the entire cast, but still, quite a big chunk.) I didn't know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 every single item in the game is purchasable with fake invisible money that you earn by playing the game the only thing anyone will miss by not paying real money is skins, and I'm fairly certain that's not a fucking travesty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I like having 50+ heroes/champions to choose from. I know the games free, but Id rather pay a flat rate for a fuller game. I was happy to pay 30$ for hon. I'd happily pay upwards of 50$ for Dota2 if it means I'll always get to play what I want to play. Cosmetics on the side are super cool. But I don't like paying microtransactions for gameplay elements. I'm kinda thinking Dota 2 will be free with all heroes unlocked and only use $ for cosmetic purchases. Also zircon you've played all of like 3 games of Dota 2 (Bot games too) so I don't think you're exactly in the best position to be making calls on which game has the more exciting laning phase. LoL does not have Smoke of Deceit for example, and unless the metagame has suddenly wildly changed since I stopped playing (which I doubt), it's still way more farm-centric. Edited February 1, 2012 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Author Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 every single item in the game is purchasable with fake invisible money that you earn by playing the gamethe only thing anyone will miss by not paying real money is skins, and I'm fairly certain that's not a fucking travesty Although, the rune page bundle is what got my credit card out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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