League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[zircon]

There are public chat channels in the LoL client and tons of LoL-playing communities (like Reddit) with private rooms, IRC rooms, etc., if you want to find like-minded players. There are also premade 5s and duo-queuing, what more do you want?

[k-wix]

Can anyone give me some pointers on improving my CS in a game? I find that I am just about always behind everyone once the game hits the mid-to-late phase. I feel like I'm bad at farming, yet when I'm in a lane I always try to last hit and keep the auto-attacking to a minimum. I play a lot of support, which is probably a big factor, but even when I'm a carry or someone who needs farm, I notice I just seem to be always behind the curve. Is it just a matter of practice ensuring you last hit every single creep? Or is there more to it?

[BardicKnowledge]

Can anyone give me some pointers on improving my CS in a game? I find that I am just about always behind everyone once the game hits the mid-to-late phase. I feel like I'm bad at farming, yet when I'm in a lane I always try to last hit and keep the auto-attacking to a minimum. I play a lot of support, which is probably a big factor, but even when I'm a carry or someone who needs farm, I notice I just seem to be always behind the curve. Is it just a matter of practice ensuring you last hit every single creep? Or is there more to it?

Practice is definitely a big part of it -- keep at it! One big issue that some players don't realize is that you should strive to never leave your lane until you absolutely have to. When I am playing a ranged AD (Varus is my favorite currently), I try not to shop until I have 3,000 to spend. Even if I reach that point, if I can still safely farm and there aren't towers down to force me out of lane, I will continue to farm until the state of the game changes (a tower goes down, we need to fight over dragon, etc). The longer you last in lane, the more creeps you get to farm. If you don't have Teleport, every recall costs you at least 300 gold -- longer if you don't know exactly what you want to buy when you get back. If you do have Teleport, you should be using it to warp directly into a gank to get even more cash -- using it to instantly shop and return is almost always less than ideal.

Lastly, if you're solo mid, don't forget to take out wraiths if your lane is pushed out too far to farm safely. Your jungler should be giving them to you whenever you want after the first full clear.

[k-wix]

Practice is definitely a big part of it -- keep at it! One big issue that some players don't realize is that you should strive to never leave your lane until you absolutely have to. When I am playing a ranged AD (Varus is my favorite currently), I try not to shop until I have 3,000 to spend. Even if I reach that point, if I can still safely farm and there aren't towers down to force me out of lane, I will continue to farm until the state of the game changes (a tower goes down, we need to fight over dragon, etc). The longer you last in lane, the more creeps you get to farm. If you don't have Teleport, every recall costs you at least 300 gold -- longer if you don't know exactly what you want to buy when you get back. If you do have Teleport, you should be using it to warp directly into a gank to get even more cash -- using it to instantly shop and return is almost always less than ideal.

Lastly, if you're solo mid, don't forget to take out wraiths if your lane is pushed out too far to farm safely. Your jungler should be giving them to you whenever you want after the first full clear.

This is actually super helpful. Thanks a ton. 300 gold for each recall? I never really thought about it that way.

[BardicKnowledge]

This is actually super helpful. Thanks a ton. 300 gold for each recall? I never really thought about it that way.

It's less if you recall after severely pushing your lane (when you would not be able to kill creeps safely anyway), but assume that you miss two full creep waves on every recall, yeah.

[zircon]

Get your mechanics down in a custom bot game. Select Sivir bot as your only opponent then go bottom and practice. I've been able to do about 93 cs by the time the clock hits 10:00. So, if you get less in a real game, it means your focus is being taken away by harass, etc, so you can work on that. If you can't get anywhere close even in a bot game, then it's time to practice timing! Realistically, if you can get 70cs in 10, that's good. By 20 mins, 150 cs is another good goal.

[eternal Zero]

I 100% back just practicing last hitting over and over and over again. It's really important. If this were DotA I'd tell you to pick the character with the worst ranged animation and buy no items and keep going until you don't miss a single kill or deny for a full ten waves or something.

In LoL it's mostly just being always cognizant of the one creep that's currently getting focused and making sure you're killing it on time regardless of anything else happening. Also a lot of it is movement and flow around the map knowing when it's safe to just power out farm, when it's safe to freeze the lane, and when you just have to nuke the wave then get the hell out of dodge. CS'ing doesn't stop after mid game. You need to make sure you're keeping that number nice and high. Kills are nice for getting gold but farming is what wins games...at least that's what I'll tell you cause I'm notorious for ricing like a mad man in every game I play. Actually last game I played I ended up going like 4-9-10 or something to that effect as jungle Yi. That is to say I fed and didn't do very well cause I didn't snowball. Guess who still had the most gold on our team? Yup, that's me, cause I had over 300cs. I didn't get all the kills but every item counts when trying to make the most opportunities for your team to pull ahead and regardless of how good your opponents are (or aren't!) you can always count on farming for that steady gold income.

[ArmadonRK]

What's your alternative?

I don't have one, I'm not looking for one, nor do I think we need one.

There are public chat channels in the LoL client and tons of LoL-playing communities (like Reddit) with private rooms, IRC rooms, etc., if you want to find like-minded players. There are also premade 5s and duo-queuing, what more do you want?

I'm not asking for more. What you've stated, it works. That's what I'm on board with. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think ranked matchmaking is trying to fix something that isn't broken. Competitive play worked before matchmaking, and I don't think ranked matchmaking works well enough to warrant the effort that goes into it. I think the ranked matchmaking and tribunal system is noble, but futile. I appreciate that they exist, and that they are options for those who want them, but I think players would do well to explore options outside of Riot's limited ranked system for a better competitive experience. That's all I'm saying, really.

[prophetik music]

so, zero, that game last night went pretty well all told =) their comp was trash but we still did pretty solid IMO.

also, let it be known. i outfarmed zero playing singed top as morde mid. didn't out-gold him, but i had four more CS at the end! thank god for morde's autofarm.

[eternal Zero]

You did well that game. Their comp would have been fine if I wasn't in every lane disrupting farming and ganking by being impossible to kill. This is also how you squeaked by with more cs, hehe. If they had managed to get tanky it would have sucked trying to teamfight them.

Also got a look at the actual mechanics and numbers of new champ and he looks to be potentially broken with rapid fire extra damage in melee or close to melee range and I'm usually spot on with my predictions.

[The Derrit]

You did well that game. Their comp would have been fine if I wasn't in every lane disrupting farming and ganking by being impossible to kill. This is also how you squeaked by with more cs, hehe. If they had managed to get tanky it would have sucked trying to teamfight them.

Also got a look at the actual mechanics and numbers of new champ and he looks to be potentially broken with rapid fire extra damage in melee or close to melee range and I'm usually spot on with my predictions.

if you think about it the 'instant refresh' thing is like cass's poison fang except it requires him to be in close range, aka 'i'm an ad and get my face melted' range. not to say some of it doesn't look troubling but despite how much damage he can put out unbothered, him getting crushed at that close range seems to me like it'd keep him under control.

[prophetik music]

i think the nerfs to darius are spot on and what they should have been - ult refresh only if you land the killing blow with it, significantly less bleeding damage, etc. if they balance him to roughly what riven is now (in lane, i realize he's different from her in late-game), i think that's a huge positive. he's super fun to play, anyways, so he's joining mao and kennen as my go-to feel-better bot-stomper characters right now =)

[Jamphibious]

i think the nerfs to darius are spot on and what they should have been - ult refresh only if you land the killing blow with it, significantly less bleeding damage, etc. if they balance him to roughly what riven is now (in lane, i realize he's different from her in late-game), i think that's a huge positive. he's super fun to play, anyways, so he's joining mao and kennen as my go-to feel-better bot-stomper characters right now =)

Yeah he's really fun but the grace period on his ult currently is just too forgiving. With it gone, people can't be QUITE as reckless with him. The bleed nerf is great too. Though he still packs a huge punch with his Q, I dunno if they'll be touching the numbers on it at all. Still he'll be in a much better place I believe.

I tried out Draven on the PBE also, and he's pretty fun. Catching his spinning axes is an interesting mechanic, though it can be tricky in frantic situations.

[The Derrit]

Yeah he's really fun but the grace period on his ult currently is just too forgiving. With it gone, people can't be QUITE as reckless with him. The bleed nerf is great too. Though he still packs a huge punch with his Q, I dunno if they'll be touching the numbers on it at all. Still he'll be in a much better place I believe.

I tried out Draven on the PBE also, and he's pretty fun. Catching his spinning axes is an interesting mechanic, though it can be tricky in frantic situations.

i think the biggest issue is the way in which he can put out seven attacks in about 5 seconds. if he's at melee range, he can attack->spin>grab>attack>arterycut>another attack>probably another spin because he's got the bleed speed bonus. even as galio, who spaces people as a life choice, can't do it because the slow harass means nothing to him. he can stand in your ranged minions and do a full combo anytime you get nearby. the worst part is he can do this without any damage whatsoever: i got pushed out of lane by a darius with a heart of gold and nothing else.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I'm new to this kind of thing, so I'm curious:

Do they make ridiculous OP new champs just to get people to buy them, then nerf later on?

[k-wix]

I'm new to this kind of thing, so I'm curious:

Do they make ridiculous OP new champs just to get people to buy them, then nerf later on?

It's happened a few times, but I certainly don't think it's intentional. There are plenty of new champions who haven't been nerfed at all. Lulu, Hecarim, & Sejuani all pop into my head. And on the subject of Darius, I'm glad they are nerfing him, though I think its his Q thats busted, rather than his bleed.

[zircon]

Lulu has been nerfed, actually. But others that were definitely not OP at release include Fiora, Skarner, Yorick, Volibear, Shyvana, Ziggs and Viktor.

The relatively OP ones within the last 6-8 months include Ahri, Graves, Varus (maybe), Darius, Talon. Others like Nautilus, Wukong, Leona and co. were balanced.

[prophetik music]

i think the biggest issue is the way in which he can put out seven attacks in about 5 seconds.

well, he's a burst champ. there are loads of ap characters that do that kind of stuff - like ahri and others. it's just that he's AD rather than AP. xin is a similar playstyle (as does talon, but talon has higher mana costs and is squishier, but with a bigger cap) and can do most of the same stuff. fiora's another one that makes you pay for not noticing her mana levels and range. you just have to play against him differently...it's the same as trying to do a melee bot against a ranged ad/support character, you need to build and play differently than normal to beat them.

i went 12-3-15 as ap mummy bruiser against a darius top. started doran's shield, farmed poorly, but beat the shit out of him despite him having tons of MR to start. you beat him the same way you beat talon or other tops - they're squish to start, so boss them around and prevent them from farming, then keep the upper hand. remember that once their kit is out, they need to wait before they can do stuff again. mummy's tantrum passive all but ignores darius's bleeding, and i built tons of regen and a hextech early to prevent him from really being able to do lasting damage against me, and to be able to heal up quick. they ganked me twice (udyr both times), but i got kills out of it each time because darius's grab basically gives me a free tantrum every time thanks to his abilities almost immediately refreshing it. got two successful ganks against him basically under his tower because he just couldn't build anything worthwhile all early game, and then went for catalyst, wota, spellpen boots, roa, and started on a ga before the game was over.

all that said, his cooldowns will likely get longer after this patch, and they might reduce the range on his q, but it's far from op atm. his mana and regen are trash, so he will blow through it quick if he's hitting it every time you're in range.

Edited June 4, 2012 by prophetik music

[The Derrit]

well, he's a burst champ. there are loads of ap characters that do that kind of stuff - like ahri and others. it's just that he's AD rather than AP. xin is a similar playstyle (as does talon, but talon has higher mana costs and is squishier, but with a bigger cap) and can do most of the same stuff. fiora's another one that makes you pay for not noticing her mana levels and range. you just have to play against him differently...

ap carries actually have to aim (minus ryze and annie), and xin and fiora you can disengage. the issue with his combo is that you can't escape it unless you flash. that's pretty much the only way.

also another difference between him and ap carries is he has natural sustain that ap carries don't.

i usually hate it when people are like 'new champ op' but if two players play evenly as top ad bruisers, there's really no reason to use any other champion, and that's when it's too much.

[Tensei]

I'm new to this kind of thing, so I'm curious:

Do they make ridiculous OP new champs just to get people to buy them, then nerf later on?

Oh come on, that's some conspiracy theory-level stuff right there. It's not like they want to keep milking this cow for all it's worth, they genuinely care about the game and want to keep introducing new and interesting champion concepts. If the balance of a new champ occasionally feels off, it's probably more because of the new and untested mechanics they're introducing with each release, not because they're that desperate to sell their new champs.

[Triad Orion]

Oh come on, that's some conspiracy theory-level stuff right there. It's not like they want to keep milking this cow for all it's worth, they genuinely care about the game and want to keep introducing new and interesting champion concepts. If the balance of a new champ occasionally feels off, it's probably more because of the new and untested mechanics they're introducing with each release, not because they're that desperate to sell their new champs.

Yeah, this. Their champs are gonna sell regardless of whether they're OP or balanced, and even if they're OP they usually get nerfed in line within a couple of weeks and then they're generally counterable.

[prophetik music]

i honestly can't tell if he's being serious or not...

[k-wix]

On the subject of champion rebalancing, who do you guys think are some of the most underpowered champions, or those that don't really do a lot compared to the others?

I'd really like for them to take a look at Zilean and perhaps change some things with Xerath, like his passive, he just never gets played.

[prophetik music]

On the subject of champion rebalancing, who do you guys think are some of the most underpowered champions, or those that don't really do a lot compared to the others?

I'd really like for them to take a look at Zilean and perhaps change some things with Xerath, like his passive, he just never gets played.

usage numbers are weird. i mean, zil is used more than singed?

zil doesn't get played much because he has no sustain, and he's either a support character that can't offtank, heal, or easily set up kills easily (nunu, shen, blitz, etc) or an ap burst mage with one spell. i think his character concept is super cool, but i think he has zero place on a normal team until dual top comes back (and even they he's mostly worthless). he can be decent late game but invariably he's got nothing built by then and either evaporates or uses his speed boost to run away.

there are a lot of champs that used to be great but aren't anymore. sivir is a trainwreck now, nerfed to oblivion. eve is always mentioned as a terrible champ now that she has no stun. corki's a decent player but never gets played anymore. same with malphite (whose numbers aren't bad, so i don't know why he's here) and alistar (some of the best tank CC in the game if you can afford CDR).

[zircon]

On the subject of champion rebalancing, who do you guys think are some of the most underpowered champions, or those that don't really do a lot compared to the others?

I'd really like for them to take a look at Zilean and perhaps change some things with Xerath, like his passive, he just never gets played.

Evelynn: Too many reasons to count.

Twitch: OK other than dumb stealth mechanic.

Katarina: Too easily countered; a mage that needs to be up close and has no tankiness.

Akali: A little too all-or-nothing.

Brand: Overnerfed.

Orianna: Overnerfed.

Ezreal: Too much skill for not enough payoff.

Kayle: Jack of all trades, master of none.

Gragas: Hard to use for minimal payoff.

Garen: Very easily countered, minimal utility.

Nasus: Easily countered, weird all-or-nothing mechanic.

Veigar: Same as Nasus.

Wukong: Maybe not underpowered, but SO BLAND

Talon: On the overnerfed side still.

Poppy: Hard to fit into a team despite having decent skills.

Master Yi: In the right direction but suffers from the same problem as other melee carries.

Sejuani: Really weak jungler and toplaner compared to others.

LeBlanc: Too much earlygame, not enough lategame.

Heimerdinger: Mana costs too high to be useful.

Irelia: Overnerfed?

Karma: Mana costs way too high for things others can do better.

Twisted Fate: Outshined by too many others.

Miss Fortune: Same as TF.

Keep in mind these are varying degrees of underpowered-ness...