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You call that drama bait, I call that a reasonable question.

and ACTUALLY. thats my only real issue. Past hstories aside with VV AND Harmony of a Hunter, this is just impossible to explain as far as I can see.

For the record, I call the nonsense in bringing up VV, especially now, drama bait. Not whatever other concerns you're bringing up.

The prices were broken down for people to see. CD printing and shipping is pretty expensive. If you don't believe me or what has been posted, I can't really say anything to change your mind. I'm not sure if a higher up has interest into breaking it down further and giving links to the places they'll be doing the printing and shipping with which is probably the only way to placate certain people at this point, and even then I doubt it'd do any good. People just want to be angry at the success of the kickstarter.

And as far as I know OCR doesn't sell albums. There are people who participate here, who are not officially affiliated with OCR, who have sold albums. Like One Ups or whatever, but they get the necessary permissions to do so.

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Okay. Lets talk Kickstarter terms then.

Games have been popular lately. What if a Game dev says

"Hey guys, i need $75,000 to fund my game! I'll make copies to give out it's gonna be sweet! Only 1000 though!"

And shows you the cost breakdown to get to $75,000

And then you read through and these guys only offer the game to you at donations of $200

Because I think that would be very strange.

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here, read Darke's response on the $50 level again

Remember, you're not paying $50 to purchase your own copy of the 4-disc print. You're donating $50 towards funding a very large print run.

Think of it this way: you're not paying for one copy. You're paying for a bunch of copies, and we toss one of them your way as a thanks.

When all is said and done and we've sent out all of the backers' rewards, we still need to have copies of the album left over for promotional stuff.

Kickstarter isn't a store, and people shouldn't think of backer rewards as purchases, even in the not-for-profit way. The situations are not really the same at all.

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Yeah i saw that. And I... don't agree at all?

The KS is for making the albums. Anything above that like say... funding for OCR as a whole, actually goes against KS's policies about finding charities or businesses (whichever one OCR falls under)

But thats clouding it too. The money is FOR this album. I would donate because I want the album.. right? and maybe bonus stuff. bonus stuff is sweet. But a simple glance at the donations shows that by far the bulk is for the album (surprise!)

So I ask, once again: Why is it $50 to get the album, when they only wanted 15k?

Can anyone answer this? or should we just play with word definitions some more?

EDIT:

point taken, jnWake. Though the cost of all those combined still isn't $50. or even close to it.

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You're also forgetting that they're only offering 1000 albums as rewards. They also like to print extra to give away as free prizes at Cons and such. It wouldn't surprise me if they're actually planning on printing several hundred more than the 1000 (or 1500, I think either DjP or zircon said in an update on the kickstarter here, it's the last post) for promotional, prize, and giveaway purposes.

As DS said (and gollgagh quoted), you're not just paying for your own copy with that $50. You're also helping defray the costs of printing others.

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You're also forgetting that they're only offering 1000 albums as rewards. They also like to print extra to give away as free prizes at Cons and such. It wouldn't surprise me if they're actually planning on printing several hundred more than the 1000 (or 1500, I think either DjP or zircon said in an update on the kickstarter here, it's the last post) for promotional, prize, and giveaway purposes.

As DS said (and gollgagh quoted), you're not just paying for your own copy with that $50. You're also helping defray the costs of printing others.

Thats true, but you see, that would make it cost even less. Because the price per album goes down the more you print.

If they want 15k, and they print 1500 of them, then that is a cost of $10 and album

If they print 1000, then that is a cost of $15 per album

See?

Look, I know it seems to people who so fiercely defend it, that I'm trying to just be a jerk. I said my piece about VV because that was personal. This, though, I legitimately would like to know. I want someone to justify it. You guys aren't doing that. you're trying to argue semantics and act like this is a jealousy reaction.

I swear that if these guys offered the album at even $20 when they're asking for 15k, I'd not even scoff at them. But the $50 is monstrously overblown.

Or so it appears. Until someone explains it.

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I actually do agree on the $50 price point being a little bit high, for the record, but there are also packaging and shipping costs to consider; not only for shipping them out to the people that want one but also the shipping costs of getting them from the printing company to whoever is shipping them out (presumably zircon himself.) It's outlined on the Kickstarter page.

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You are absolutely correct, Kyle. those costs are a bitch! More than printing, even!

But, thats part of the 15k. According to them.

Printing costs: $5,600 for 1,500 copies in nice full-color DVD cases with 4 CDs each

Delivery costs: $400 to get the printed CDs to OCR HQ in Fairfax, VA

Shipping costs: $6,500 to ship up to 1,500 copies to donors and project ReMixers

Kickstarter/Amazon fees: $1,500

Studio/mastering budget: $1,000 (remainder) to be used as-needed

Thats 15k.

So, that would have nothing to do with the fact that the album needs to be $50

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I actually do agree on the $50 price point being a little bit high, for the record

Same here. But I can *sort of* see why they'd do it if they didn't anticipate such a big success. Perhaps the higher ups would have done some stuff differently if they knew how things would go, but as mentioned this is OCR's first Kickstarter. It wasn't done perfectly but I don't think there was any ill intent.

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I already talked to DJP about what really concerns me about this, and I'm glad that he seems to share in some of that. It's not about someone keeping the money, but about the amount of money being put into intellectual property that someone else owns.

I sold RnL CDs, but at that small level it's near impossible to turn a profit, which keeps me comfortable and okay with the idea of selling something like that. If I had gotten more funding for it I would have expanded the production, put more time in, etc, and I think that's what we're gonna be faced with here if this keeps gaining momentum.

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Now remember that I am hardly staff when I say this, but I think what happened is that they vastly underestimated the draw-power of having a physical album. Perhaps they saw $50 as a pricepoint that would allow them to recoup costs without being too outrageous.

Obviously six hundred some odd people didn't think it was too outrageous.

Perhaps though, in hindsight, the staff will fully agree that $20 would more than sufficiently cover multiple copies for future distribution.

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Come on guys. That makes even less sense.

If you are WORRIED about not making your cost, why would you charge MORE for your product?

People are deterred by money, especially in the VG scene where so many are poor.

If they offered the album at $20 a pop (even 25!) I can basically promise you it would be sold out by now. And 20 a pop would still be a larger profit margin than they were asking for.

Want 15k

CD cost = $10 for 1500

Actual cost for people to own = $50

5 times the production cost.

Thats not "a little bit high"

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The way you're framing it is wrong. We've printed large runs of previous albums at a loss. We did NOT sell these physicals, nor did we offer them in exchange for donations. 9 times out of 10 we used them for purely promotional reasons, for example giveaways or prizes at conventions like Otakon, MAGfest, PAX East and PAX Prime, bonus gifts for people that bought our t-shirts OR sponsored events such as Video Games Live. The goal of the Kickstarter was to fund the printing of such a run, with our expectation being that we wouldn't be giving anywhere close to the total run to Kickstarter donors.

In other words, we did not EXPECT, when we first started, that we would have as many backers as we do at the $50+ levels. We expected that donations would be spread evenly, weighted toward the lower tiers. This estimation was based on what we observed of people who donate money to the site, as well as people who bought merchandise at conventions. Obviously we way underestimated how many people would come in at the $50 level.

In summary, we knew we were shooting to print about 1000 copies. We did not think that the majority (or anywhere close) would be going to Kickstarter donors. As it turns out, people are being way more supportive than we could have ever hoped, so we're sweetening the deal with an entire 5th disc, a DVD, of content as well as more rewards which we'll be announcing over the next few weeks (we already hinted at one today, to be revealed tomorrow).

As for the excess donations that AREN'T going toward album printing, shipping, additional rewards and bonuses, that will go to the site. Not as profit, since nobody here gets paid anything, but to pay for various site costs, upgrades and improvements. Same way we use all our donation money.

The KS is for making the albums. Anything above that like say... funding for OCR as a whole, actually goes against KS's policies about finding charities or businesses (whichever one OCR falls under)

No, this doesn't go against KS policies. KS has no problem with overfunding and they have no requirements or policies saying that all additional funds above the goal MUST be used for that ONE SPECIFIC PROJECT and nothing else. That would be unrealistic and infeasible, and there are countless other examples of this happening to other projects with no problems whatsoever. The policies say that Kickstarter is not for ongoing projects or businesses, but that's not at all what our primary goal was, and we honestly did not expect to blow past our goal this fast.

If a game dev wants to raise $15k for a game and ends up raising $200k, nobody can or should expect them to spend every last cent on that one game. Obviously some of that money will go to future projects.

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As for the excess donations that AREN'T going toward album printing, shipping, additional rewards and bonuses, that will go to the site. Not as profit, since nobody here gets paid anything, but to pay for various site costs, upgrades and improvements. Same way we use all our donation money.

Right, and I think that's where the issue is. These are maintenance costs that have to be incurred either way, and the KS is specifically for the FF6 project. Personally I think it would be great for that money to go towards improving the site and paying for future hosting and more improvements, but that doesn't provide OCR much cover. Only thing we can do now is watch how this thing unfolds, it's very exciting.

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Alright, what you're basically saying is you put it at $50 as a deterrent. "most people won't go this high".

Which seems incredibly bizarre since the entire pitch is about getting the album. Why you didn't think the majority of people would want to actually own the album, i don't know. But if thats the case, okay.

I think that the problem is you guys used this as a dual purpose. You marketed as owning the album, but a large (and maybe when all said and done) LARGEST portion is going to the site itself.

If this was marketed as OCRemix fundraiser with a bonus album if you give $50! I think myself- and most others, wouldn't have an issue. Hell, i'd probably even support it.But I also think if you did that, KS wouldn't go for it. I'll admit to not having the research of having gone through it myself, however.

Please, please, please stop saying "it's not profit." Though. Anything above cost is profit. Just because it goes back into the site, and not your personal pocket, doesn't make it not profit. And for the record: I don't at all think you guys are pocketing this money. I'm SURE you'll put it to use. But thats still profit.

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If the majority is "profit" is that the fault of OCR though? OCR cannot control people who are still donating even after hitting the goal.

If all the albums were gone and therefore all that was left to toss in was "I LOVE YOU GUYS!" money? no.

But since albums are still up to grabs. You think maybe people kept donating past the mark- which was a mere 1/5th the asking cost.. because they wanted the album?

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I actually do agree on the $50 price point being a little bit high, for the record, but there are also packaging and shipping costs to consider; not only for shipping them out to the people that want one but also the shipping costs of getting them from the printing company to whoever is shipping them out (presumably zircon himself.) It's outlined on the Kickstarter page.

Just fyi, have you seen the Update 3 on the kickstarter. That $50 might not be so high anymore.

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Yes, this project made a profit, but it wasn't set up for the express purpose to make a profit. Therefore it was not "for profit."

I checked the Kickstarter faq, I couldn't find anything that mentions that the site keeps track of where the money goes, Amazon might though, I'm not sure. In the accountability section, the word is that accountability lies solely in the hands of the project creators.

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Alright, what you're basically saying is you put it at $50 as a deterrent. "most people won't go this high".

Which seems incredibly bizarre since the entire pitch is about getting the album. Why you didn't think the majority of people would want to actually own the album, i don't know. But if thats the case, okay.

It wasn't a deterrent. It was just the level that we felt was appropriate to getting a physical copy plus all the earlier bonuses.

As to why we didn't expect so many people to do it, you have to remember the album itself IS completely free. We said that in big bold letters. Everyone, backer or otherwise, will be able to download it via torrent or zip/rar file with MP3/FLAC. The physical is essentially just a collectible. It will look cool, but it's actually not giving you anything you can't get for free. That's why we didn't expect so many people to do it.

I think that the problem is you guys used this as a dual purpose. You marketed as owning the album, but a large (and maybe when all said and done) LARGEST portion is going to the site itself.

If this was marketed as OCRemix fundraiser with a bonus album if you give $50! I think myself- and most others, wouldn't have an issue. Hell, i'd probably even support it.But I also think if you did that, KS wouldn't go for it. I'll admit to not having the research of having gone through it myself, however.

KS doesn't allow you to do projects for websites or other things that require ongoing maintenance, they have to be for specific projects. FF6 album IS a specific project, and again we didn't expect to blow past our goal by this much, or this fast! So it's a little unfair to say we should have predicted with certainty that we were going to get this much money, and adjusted the Kickstarter around that guess. Remember in our best years we get <$10k total donations across the entire year.

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You are absolutely correct, Kyle. those costs are a bitch! More than printing, even!

But, thats part of the 15k. According to them.

Printing costs: $5,600 for 1,500 copies in nice full-color DVD cases with 4 CDs each

Delivery costs: $400 to get the printed CDs to OCR HQ in Fairfax, VA

Shipping costs: $6,500 to ship up to 1,500 copies to donors and project ReMixers

Kickstarter/Amazon fees: $1,500

Studio/mastering budget: $1,000 (remainder) to be used as-needed

Thats 15k.

So, that would have nothing to do with the fact that the album needs to be $50

The album does not cost 50$ per copy, nor is that a selling price of the album. Read the description on the Kickstarter page.

Why Kickstarter?

Even though this album will be distributed for FREE via ocremix.org, we plan on printing LIMITED EDITION PHYSICAL COPIES. These copies will NOT be sold, but will be available as prizes or gifts at conventions, OCR panels, contests, and similar events. We've found that physical albums are a very important promotional tool, and often encourage donations or purchases of t-shirts, bumper stickers and other OCR merchandise. These sources of revenue are essential in keeping the site, which is run by an all-volunteer staff, up and running.

Additionally, though all artists are volunteers, many tracks will require studio recording time or professional mixing/mastering - things that we could use a budget for!

The album and bonus DVD, along with the free downloads of other albums (and some other stuff that OCR may include into the 50$ range as a way to thank the donors in that level) will not come to 50$, nor should you expect it to, because it is not a purchase of the album. It's a donation so that OCR can make as many physical copies of the album as needed for promotion, future distributions, etc., to promote the site, as well as creating a budget so the albums can be as professionally mastered and produced as possible. When someone donates 50$, they are rewarded with one of the printings of the album (as the Kickstarter mentioned, it will be available as a reward or gift at conventions and such - the donation mark is one of the cases of being a reward).

Again, this is not a purchase, it is a donation to a larger printing of the album for the sake of promotion for both the album and the site. I do believe it could have been made clearer in the kickstarter page that the money is also intended to support the site, as well, as this replaces the normal 'Support OCR Month' that normally helps keep this place afloat (there is mention of that on the page, but it's harder to find).

A donation of 50$ should not be a purchase of the album - the album will be distributed freely, so if you want the music feel free to download it when it becomes available. It won't have all the bells and whistles of a hard copy, but that's all it is in the end - bells and whistles. A donation of 50$ should be made if you want to support the costs of the album (which has been met, obviously) or if you want to support what this site is about (which can use the money - it's not a cheap place to upkeep and expand, when needed, with all the bandwidth used with free downloads). If you don't want to support the site, then people don't need to donate. It's clear as day that the drive has hit it's mark, so unless the hard copy of the album (as well as the other bonuses) are worth 50$ to you then the only reason to donate would be to further help the site out and possibly allow for better mastering and production options for the album.

I sent 50$ because I love the site and want to see it go for as long as possible. I hope people are donating for the same reason.

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Gario. You're arguing semantics again. We can't pretend until we're blue in the face, that the asking price of the album wasn't $50, but it was. Sale, Donations, contribution. Good Deed. Whatever you want to call it. You dont own the album til you give $50.

Zircon's answer is better. Thanks for the answer. I said before- and again, I don't think you guys did this as malicious intent to pocket money, but the way it was set up didn't really add up at all.

Side mentioning "oh other profits can go to OCR.." is a sneaky way of doing it via kickstarter. Accidentally sneaky I guess. Defenders here have often been like "well the extras go to help OCR! so its great!" but you specifically said KS doesn't allow that if you had that be the main goal and the album as a side goal.

But DJP calls it this year's fundraiser. So, it gets very cloudy, very fast.

One positive thing to note: the rewards above the 50 mark are completely unrelated to feeling deception. those are all OBVIOUSLY people who threw their support for the love. And you have a handful of those, so, thats cool. THATS some fundraising.

I don't hate this album, or the people on it- Just to make that clear. Thanks for answering the questions Zircon.

One last thing:

Now that we have an understanding, I'd hope that if ANYONE ELSE besides OCR ever does something similar, they wouldn't be frowned upon. I mean, I hope no one ever does this massive underestimation of album sales for their project, and end up with THIS much profit. But, anyone else ever trying to just make a hard copy, should be given more of a benefit of the doubt.

I'm saving this quote forever: Yes, this project made a profit, but it wasn't set up for the express purpose to make a profit. Therefore it was not "for profit."

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I'm saving this quote forever: Yes, this project made a profit, but it wasn't set up for the express purpose to make a profit. Therefore it was not "for profit."

EDIT: My statement is a bit confusing, I admit. Enjoy, I hope you cherish the quote.

Actually, I'm not sure if I would even call it profit. No product is being sold, and no one is getting paid. On that basis, this project is not for profit, it didn't make profit. Look up the word if have doubts.

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Good, because it's correct. I don't know how you can't grasp that concept. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Actually, I'm not sure if I would even call it profit. No product is being sold, and no one is getting paid.

1st sentence:

Don't worry CnC, I've known this for a long. looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Be sure you don;t forget though! I'll be calling upon you again some daaaaaaay. :)

2nd:

what? we had a moment.

damn it man. back to semantics. :cry:

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