Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[DarkeSword]

Not that I necessarily agree with this overly narrow idea of yours, what you described is pretty much exactly what's happened in nearly all Mario games.

Here's a question I'm curious about: can anyone think of an example of a positively portrayed female video game protagonist who isn't mute (NPCs don't count)? 'Cause I can't.

Commander Shepard!

[zircon]

Perhaps because the actual answer is that "needing to be rescued" is only problematic if it is institutionally, universally applied to characters of one and only one gender on the sole basis of being that gender. Keep in mind that saying it "is" is different from saying it "was".

A trope should never ever be considered problematic in itself. It's application, however, should always be scrutinized. The last thing a fledgling narrative medium needs is to be treated with dogmatic moralizing.

EDIT: Wooo now a Belmont

I think tropes can absolutely be problematic by themselves. What about the obviously racist trope of a bucktoothed Asian farmer with a straw hat? I think we've managed to move on from that because it really is offensive all the time. I'm sure if we put our heads together we could come up with some other tropes that are obviously offensive, derogatory, racist, etc. so a sexist trope should not be any different.

There's also no logical reason to not talk about the "fledgling narrative medium" of games just because it's young. So what? It's bigger than the movie industry. It doesn't need coddling. Nobody, least of all Anita, is talking about any sort of actual legal restrictions on games. THAT is the only thing we should be worried about. Exercising our freedom of speech in an academic fashion is the mark of a medium that has matured to the point where it has obvious real cultural impact.

[Vilecat]

Many examples (and until recently, Lara Croft) are still portrayed in a way that only flatters them for the men to enjoy. Barely covered legs and boobs big enough to show the cleavage (dat boob crack) from the partly zipped coat or whatever they're wearing. I concede that we can't just wrap every female character in a dozen layers, but as of now even the strongest (mentally or physically) and deepest characters are too often subjected to this.

The protagonist from Perfect Dark maybe since she has a reason to/function for wearing that skin-tight suit (spy/infiltration). I wanted to say Cypher/Sypha Belnades (one of the playable characters from Castlevania 3), but her costume in Castlevania Judgement is... urgh.

Edit: Actually, funny thing is Commander Shepard is unintentionally a good example. The gender option where you could have either male or female Shepard was added later, and the devs, either out of laziness or lack of time, didn't change any of the cameras in-game. Shepard isn't presented differently based on the gender, unlike other characters in the serie.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Vilecat

[relyanCe]

Here's a question I'm curious about: can anyone think of an example of a positively portrayed female video game protagonist who isn't mute (NPCs don't count)? 'Cause I can't.

Rosalina from your favorite series to misrepresent, Yuna from FFX, Bayonetta (if you're a sex-negative feminist you will disagree of course), Maria Traydor from Star Ocean 3, Penelo from FFXII, Zelda/Shiek, Farore, Din, Nayru, Impa, Saria, and more from Zelda, the list REALLY does go on.

How's that for narrow?

EDIT:

I think tropes can absolutely be problematic by themselves. What about the obviously racist trope of a bucktoothed Asian farmer with a straw hat? I think we've managed to move on from that because it really is offensive all the time. I'm sure if we put our heads together we could come up with some other tropes that are obviously offensive, derogatory, racist, etc. so a sexist trope should not be any different.

If you want to throw all stereotyping ever out of the storyteller's toolbox, go ahead. Actual storytellers probably won't really pay attention to you trying to do that. A bucktoothed Asian farmer in a straw hat is not racist. APPLYING a derisive, jocular, or malicious characterization WOULD be racist (see myriad depictions in American film history). I've seen a fair few bucktoothed Asian farmers kick ass is kung fu flicks. Tropes, like any tool, are defined by how they are used.

Insert "you're so racist" replies here.

There's also no logical reason to not talk about the "fledgling narrative medium" of games just because it's young. So what? It's bigger than the movie industry. It doesn't need coddling. Nobody, least of all Anita, is talking about any sort of actual legal restrictions on games. THAT is the only thing we should be worried about. Exercising our freedom of speech in an academic fashion is the mark of a medium that has matured to the point where it has obvious real cultural impact.

Yes because I explicitly said "don't talk about it". That's totally what I said. I totally DIDN'T say that every trope in the toolbox SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED or anything. I didn't say that at all.

I said that video games, as a new medium, should not be treated in the same way film, literature, and a plethora of emerging genres of music throughout the centuries were treated, e.g. with heavy-handed, dogmatic moralizing. Which, amusingly enough, nearly ubiquitously came down from academic and scholarly institutions.

Edited March 14, 2013 by relyanCe

[Swifthom]

Rosalina from your favorite series to misrepresent, Yuna from FFX, Bayonetta (if you're a sex-negative feminist you will disagree of course), Maria Traydor from Star Ocean 3, Penelo from FFXII, Zelda/Shiek, Farore, Din, Nayru, Impa, Saria, and more from Zelda, the list REALLY does go on.

How's that for narrow?

Penelo... urghhh, a good representation of a female but an awful character in a game I otherwise love.

Farore, Din, Nayru aren't characters 'per say' just forces of nature with 'supposed' female aspects...

Then with Zelda/Shiek some people argue that she's actually 'changing sex' as well as wearing a disguise when she's Shiek, so that renders a whole new debate of 'women have to become men to improve themselves' if you go down that role. And the moment she resumes her old stance as Zelda she's back in the whole 'helpless' trope we started from...

But despite being nitpicky, there are 'plenty' of good female characters out there.

[DarkeSword]

Rosalina from your favorite series to misrepresent, Yuna from FFX, Bayonetta (if you're a sex-negative feminist you will disagree of course), Maria Traydor from Star Ocean 3, Penelo from FFXII, Zelda/Shiek, Farore, Din, Nayru, Impa, Saria, and more from Zelda, the list REALLY does go on.

How's that for narrow?

Rosalina, Zelda, Farore, Din, Nayru, Impa, Saria and all those other girls from TLoZ are all NPCs.

[Bleck]

I think an interesting question to ask is if 'protagonist' is used in the literal sense here or if, in reference to video games, it explicitly refers to the main playable character(s)

[zircon]

If you want to throw all stereotyping ever out of the storyteller's toolbox, go ahead. Actual storytellers probably won't really pay attention to you trying to do that. A bucktoothed Asian farmer in a straw hat is not racist. APPLYING a derisive, jocular, or malicious characterization WOULD be racist. I've seen a fair few of bucktoothed Asian farmers kick ass is kung fu flicks.

Wow. Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Yes because I explicitly said "don't talk about it". That's totally what I said. I totally DIDN'T say that every trope in the toolbox SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED or anything. I didn't say that at all.

I honestly don't know what your goal here is. Why don't you be more clear?

[Rozovian]

Here's a question I'm curious about: can anyone think of an example of a positively portrayed female video game protagonist who isn't mute (NPCs don't count)? 'Cause I can't.

Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, saving orphans and a pig uncle

Faith from Mirror's Edge, saving her sis and taking down Big Brother

Zoey and Rochelle from L4D, surviving in the zombie apocalypse

Play more games.

[XPRTNovice]

I just wanted to throw out that I'm severely offended by every male character in Gears of War, Army of Two, God of War, the movie 300, or any game in which a male's status is represented by his strength or ability to kill things. I resent the fact that gender stereotypes force me to aspire to be a specific role like that. It marginalizes all other aspects of being male, and the trope is sexist. I also am offended by the idea that as a male I have to want to dominate, conquer, and control things. [/tongue-in-cheek]

People get so wrapped around the axle about this kind of stuff. There DEFINITELY are situations where [race/gender/age] are distastefully portrayed. Sorry, but the little cars in Transformers 2 with the gold teeth and bling bling who stole things, couldn't speak well, and couldn't read was a racist portrayal of black people. A buck-toothed Asian farmer with a flat-brimmed hat who can't pronounce the letter L may not be 100% racist, but it's sure as shit demeaning and well beyond useful stereotyping.

But the trope of amplifying gender roles isn't just applicable to women - it goes both ways, and there's an argumentative fixation on this sort of stuff that just bothers me. If people are going to flip out over a chick wearing a bikini in a video game, they should also be flipping out about muscular, idiotic jocks that scratch their nuts and womanize for social kicks. I'm all for lightening the eff up.

To add to a list of non-NPC females that are strong-willed:

-The female lead from Heavy Rain. At one point, she kicks the ass of a bunch of burglars in her house and, I think, sticks a drill bit into a mad scientist.

-None of the females in FF6 have a damsel complex that I'm aware of (though Celes does get rescued once) and mostly proceed to kick ass.

-Elly from Xenogears repeatedly rescues Fei, if I remember correctly.

- Female lead from Secret of Mana - playable, with dialog, on a quest to save her boyfriend.

- The cast of FF X-2, who spend their lives searching for a boy, and tour as singers and have special powers that let them change into skimpy clothes...wait, nevermind.

Addendum: I hate the princess from ICO. I'm just throwing it out there. Her only job is to hold onto my hand and make squeaking noises, and she only does 50% of that well. God I hate her.

[Lyrai]

I always thought Lucca from CT was a pretty good role model.

Terra & Celes from FF6 were pretty good as well.

I'd give an honorable mention to Maya, Lilith, and Gaige from Borderlands. They seem with it, and do speak, and are referenced as existing outside of a walking camera with legs, but the protagonist duties are split among 4/5 characters.

[relyanCe]

I honestly don't know what your goal here is. Why don't you be more clear?

You really have no right to ask me to be more clear if you're willingly only reading half of what I write. Just gonna leave that there. I literally answered BOTH of your replies in the posts you half-quote.

did I miss the free blinders kiosk on the way into this thread?

[Argle]

But the trope of amplifying gender roles isn't just applicable to women - it goes both ways, and there's an argumentative fixation on this sort of stuff that just bothers me. If people are going to flip out over a chick wearing a bikini in a video game, they should also be flipping out about muscular, idiotic jocks that scratch their nuts and womanize for social kicks.

Difference is, male game character stereotypes are not perpetrated by women. Both sides of the coin are male power fantasies; by males, for males.

[Lyrai]

If your argument is going to be "Well the big hulks offend me as well, they're not a power fantasy tO ME", they are a power fantasy to a very large part of the male fanbase. And they're intended to be a power fantasy. In much the same way, some of the worst offenders of women in video games, they're intended to be little more than objects for men to collect - sometimes in a literal sense. (See: Witcher games)

I mean, hands down, Bayonetta is my favorite example of a female protagonist in a modern video game. Despite looking like she's supposed to be eye candy for males, she is very clearly with it at all times. She's never suddenly stripped powerless, and the one time she does need rescuing, another woman that the entire game has built as her equal steps in to do the job. And the rescuing is even plot-relevant! It's not a contrived reason. She's not doing all this for validation from someone else, either, she's doing it for her own reasons. She is quite comfortable using her sexuality as a weapon, and does so without resorting to the tiresome relationship tropes that usually entagle it. In multiple ways, the relationship between her and Luka is a standard video game relationship with it's genders flipped.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Lyrai

[Argle]

Just so, Lyrai. Big burly men in video games are MEANT to appeal to males.

[zircon]

You really have no right to ask me to be more clear if you're willingly only reading half of what I write. Just gonna leave that there. I literally answered BOTH of your replies in the posts you half-quote.

did I miss the free blinders kiosk on the way into this thread?

Actually you edited in your reply while I was writing my post. I didn't see it when I responded.

I said that video games, as a new medium, should not be treated in the same way film, literature, and a plethora of emerging genres of music throughout the centuries were treated, e.g. with heavy-handed, dogmatic moralizing. Which, amusingly enough, nearly ubiquitously came down from academic and scholarly institutions.

I'm hard-pressed to think of how film, literature, or music genres were treated with "heavy-handed, dogmatic moralizing" from academic and scholarly institutions, so I really don't agree with that. At best, I'm thinking of things like "Elvis is the devil's music" but that was hardly an academic thing, nor is it really analogous to what we're talking about here. That was simply the older generation looking down on things the newer generation enjoyed from a religious perspective, which is again not related to this.

[XPRTNovice]

Big burly men in video games are MEANT to appeal to males.

Yes, yes, I rarely intend for tongue in cheek arguments to be taken as philosophical truth. You do make a good point.

However! Look at the entirety of the romance genre of literature written by women and tell me that similiar stereotypes levied against men aren't present there. Can we really say that those are fantastical men for men?

Regardless of the above point being valid/invalid about the romance genre, I am generally curious (and ignorant) if there are any female game developers/writers whose games we might point to for examples.

[relyanCe]

Addendum: I hate the princess from ICO. I'm just throwing it out there. Her only job is to hold onto my hand and make squeaking noises, and she only does 50% of that well. God I hate her.

instantly reminded me of

Regardless of the above point being valid/invalid about the romance genre, I am generally curious (and ignorant) if there are any female game developers/writers whose games we might point to for examples.

hoooooo boy

[Bleck]

but Yorda's characterization actually makes sense considering the story

[Argle]

Yes, yes, I rarely intend for tongue in cheek arguments to be taken as philosophical truth. You do make a good point.

However! Look at the entirety of the romance genre of literature written by women and tell me that similiar stereotypes levied against men aren't present there. Can we really say that those are fantastical men for men?

Regardless of the above point being valid/invalid about the romance genre, I am generally curious (and ignorant) if there are any female game developers/writers whose games we might point to for examples.

I don't read romance novels, so I don't really know the stereotypes presented by them. But yeah, they're written by women for women, so if you want to get a glimpse of the shoe on the other foot, there you go.

[XPRTNovice]

I don't read romance novels, so I don't really know the stereotypes presented by them. But yeah, they're written by women for women, so if you want to get a glimpse of the shoe on the other foot, there you go.

Curious, though, that the most viral and famous romance novel of late revolves around the premise about a woman being physically/sexually dominated by a man (50 Shades of Grey, written by a female).

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I always thought Lucca from CT was a pretty good role model.

Terra & Celes from FF6 were pretty good as well.

Celes maybe. Terra's whole schtick was being helpless or otherwise in need of male characters to take care of her for half the game. But I guess that's made less problematic because Celes provides more of a contrast.

[relyanCe]

but Yorda's characterization actually makes sense considering the story

Sense isn't part of the equation when you filter absolutely everything you see into collections of social statements.

I think that's because a lot of women don't want to openly admit they like porn. It'd make them seem dirty or shameful or something, so they call it "romance". It's pretty stupid though, because porn is healthy and normal. A lot of women got into 50 shades because their friends told them to read it because "it's so good". I saw women on my Facebook page babble excitedly about the book and refer others to it, women who would otherwise not read that tripe (because while smut is okay, glorifying a toxic and abusive sexual relationship is not). If you want to see a group of sheep, watch some women and the social things they do: social reading, social cooking, social shows, social clothing. I think it's one of the reasons I like to hang with guys better: they can suggest me stuff to read/watch/play, but if I don't get into it they're not going to get on my case.

Edit: and I know that sheep comment sounded horrible, but it's another problem with gender stereotyping and gender roles. Women are taught that they need to do whatever others are doing to be accepted. You're supposed to do as you're told and like it. You're not supposed to decide that you really don't want to read Twilight, and that you have absolutely no interest in it, because there's something wrong if you do. That happened to me two years ago: I was at some company party and these women were ranting and raving about the Twilight books, and when I said both that I don't like them and explained why, they told me "but there has to be some part of you that wants to like them". Uh, no. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I have to follow the mob and pretend to enjoy what everybody else does, kthx.

Prepare yourself for some serious allegations of latent/learned sexism.

Edited March 14, 2013 by relyanCe

[Annie Felis]

Curious, though, that the most viral and famous romance novel of late revolves around the premise about a woman being physically/sexually dominated by a man (50 Shades of Grey, written by a female).

I think that's because a lot of women don't want to openly admit they like porn. It'd make them seem dirty or shameful or something, so they call it "romance". It's pretty stupid though, because porn is healthy and normal. A lot of women got into 50 shades because their friends told them to read it because "it's so good". I saw women on my Facebook page babble excitedly about the book and refer others to it, women who would otherwise not read that tripe (because while smut is okay, glorifying a toxic and abusive sexual relationship is not). If you want to see a group of sheep, watch some women and the social things they do: social reading, social cooking, social shows, social clothing. I think it's one of the reasons I like to hang with guys better: they can suggest me stuff to read/watch/play, but if I don't get into it they're not going to get on my case.

Edit: and I know that sheep comment sounded horrible, but it's another problem with gender stereotyping and gender roles. Women are taught that they need to do whatever others are doing to be accepted. You're supposed to do as you're told and like it. You're not supposed to decide that you really don't want to read Twilight, and that you have absolutely no interest in it, because there's something wrong if you do. That happened to me two years ago: I was at some company party and these women were ranting and raving about the Twilight books, and when I said both that I don't like them and explained why, they told me "but there has to be some part of you that wants to like them". Uh, no. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I have to follow the mob and pretend to enjoy what everybody else does, kthx.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Annie Felis
.

[Annie Felis]

Prepare yourself for some serious allegations of latent/learned sexism.

Yeah, that's why I was keeping out of the thread, but hey that's also my point: sexism is learned, even by the sex being put down. You're told what to do instead of just being you.