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Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies


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First of all, YouTube has an enormous audience. It's one of the top 5 websites on the internet. That's about as wide a net as you can cast. It's absurd to think that anyone with a computer doesn't know about or use YouTube.

If we're her audience, then she literally has nothing new to add to the table that we don't already know and probably agree with.

Except that isn't true at all? Think about how many people in this thread alone disagree with her and refuse to accept what she's saying, now multiply that by the enormous groups of people who were giving her intense grief over her Kickstarter, who badmouthed and harassed her on YouTube, Reddit, Kotaku, NeoGAF, etc etc etc. There isn't even a GRAIN of truth in what you said.

I don't really know that we're going to get to a profound level of discussion, especially if a large portion of the target victim(ostensibly women) don't choose to participate anyway.

Again WTF are you talking about? This is maybe the most active and civil debate I've ever seen on OCR, on any topic. This is as relatively 'profound' as it is going to ever get. We have women participating in the discussion here as well!

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Andy, I do think there's a line between criticism and advocacy (or, on an extreme end of the spectrum, propaganda)... criticism would be primarily interested in the merit of a work; advocacy would use

Well said; I just don't view it as zero-sum, nor do I view "hardcore" gaming as something that necessarily needs to evaporate to let the medium truly flourish. It can't be the standard-bearer for the

The nuance is that he doesn't believe that belief has anything to do with it, and that a person's actions are inseparable from their character or that there is any belief beyond what is in accordance

I don't think there's a single person here that is saying sexism isn't a problem in video games. The fact that they aren't agreeing with the idea that the DiD trope as being particularly harmful is what I've seen mostly here(as in ocremix.org). If you're generalizing some kind of refusal to acknowledge sexism in videogames as a thing, well I don't know what to say about that.

Yes yes, youtube has a high audience. Again, how many of them are watching this specific series of videos, have a passing interest in gaming beyond Angry Birds, and actually care about the issue in the first place that don't aren't aware on some level of the issue? I'm pretty sure you'll see that number start to diminish greatly. I'm sure there are some people watching that are actually being informed, but not a "top 5 websites on the internet"-worthy amount.

As for people participating in this debate, it's pretty much all the usual suspects. I'm not seeing a surge in forum members due to this thread. Activity? Yeah, but I can't think of anything anyone here has said anything new outside of Coup's articulate post on the DiD trope.

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I don't think there's a single person here that is saying sexism isn't a problem in video games

There are definitely people here who don't think sexism is a problem in games.

If you're generalizing some kind of refusal to acknowledge sexism in videogames as a thing, well I don't know what to say about that.

Well considering that's the crux of your statement... you should be saying "Oops, you're right and I was wrong." There really is an ENORMOUS group of people online who just think everything is fine and dandy and anyone trying to change the status quo is wrong.

Look, you're pretty much saying "Why bother trying to educate people on YouTube". YouTube has the widest reach possible. What are the other alternatives? It's ridiculous to suggest anything else. No, not every potentially affected or interested party is going to watch her videos, but that's not the point. It's not POSSIBLE to reach everyone, or even close to everyone.

And "preaching to the choir" isn't even necessarily a bad thing. Multiple people in this thread who already agreed with Anita conceptually found the video interesting and it showed a different perspective. Remember that for things to change, people have to actually DO SOMETHING. You can have the opinion that sexism is a problem but not be motivated to do anything about it. Maybe watching a video like this puts you a little over the edge.

This is, quite simply, how change happens.

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Malaki, along with these videos, she also writes and/or is features in magazines and gives conferences at conventions and such. This upcoming serie of videos is just one of the many tools she has been using to push the information out.

It's not one of those things where someone makes this one video and then hopes it'll magically go viral.

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But where did the 160k$ go?? With that amount, she could definitely so something a little more proactive than a "pop culture-critic" video series, where she does just that: critiques. I know quite a lot of people who can do that constantly without kickstarters. Yea, judge me as one of those sexist pigs for saying that. It's like some people here think she shouldn't or can't be criticized at all. Is it because she's a woman? Is it because YouTube trolls were mean to her and evidently were succesful? If so, she's making a damsel of distress out of herself!

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But where did the 160k$ go?? With that amount, she could definitely so something a little more proactive than a "pop culture-critic" video series, where she does just that: critiques. I know quite a lot of people who can do that constantly without kickstarters.

This again? We've been over this already, multiple times. Do you not understand that she plans to make multiple videos? Seriously, read her kickstarter. Do you not understand that initial goal was $6000 dollars? She didn't ask for 160k. What do you suggest she do with it? What do you want from her?

Yea, judge me as one of those sexist pigs for saying that. It's like some people here think she shouldn't or can't be criticized at all. Is it because she's a woman? Is it because YouTube trolls were mean to her and evidently were succesful? If so, she's making a damsel of distress out of herself!

Yeah, that's all bullshit.

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But where did the 160k$ go?? With that amount, she could definitely so something a little more proactive than a "pop culture-critic" video series, where she does just that: critiques. I know quite a lot of people who can do that constantly without kickstarters. Yea, judge me as one of those sexist pigs for saying that. It's like some people here think she shouldn't or can't be criticized at all. Is it because she's a woman? Is it because YouTube trolls were mean to her and evidently were succesful? If so, she's making a damsel of distress out of herself!

Where did the $160 K go is a fair question.

All I can say about that is she 'planned' to make a series of videos, she didn't ask for nearly that much money. When she realised she was getting a lot she decided to increase the number of videos, increased their depth and length.

Maybe that's caused some of the problems - people are complaining she hasn't got to the relevant 'thrust' of her point in this first episode. If this was a series of just 5 vids (as originally planned) maybe that might not be the case? A tighter, more focus (read: less bloated) argument might be more effective?

Who knows... :roll:

However she was given the money to make these videos. People chose to give it to her, they weren't held at gunpoint. Sure, she could have made some smaller, quicker turnaround videos for free, but she recognized that there's clearly a $160 K demand for this message to be on Youtube.

So where'd the surplus money go? Maybe she's doing more with it (and as Zircon highlighted a few thing's she's already done) but she was originally commited to making these videos. Not making them would be fraudulent.

EDIT 1:

Yes yes, youtube has a high audience. Again, how many of them are watching this specific series of videos, have a passing interest in gaming beyond Angry Birds, and actually care about the issue in the first place that don't aren't aware on some level of the issue? I'm pretty sure you'll see that number start to diminish greatly. I'm sure there are some people watching that are actually being informed, but not a "top 5 websites on the internet"-worthy amount.

(and with regards to Youtube as a platform - it has 1) global reach 2) ease of access 3) instant consumer awareness 4) embeddable on any other website in the world 5) She had already established herself and her modus operandum there.

There 'are' many people on Youtube (and more who use Youtube to find) who broadcast semi-educational / documentarian videos which highlight issues / discuss topics.

Not as many videos of that as there are tits or cats, but there are a lot if you search.)

And if 1% of the internet see her video, that's still... well 2012 est. put worldwide internet use at 2,405,518,376, but lets cut that down to places with good English exposure; America, Europe and Oceansa/Australia, still puts our figure at 816,585,441. if 0.01% of them see the video and/or hear about the debate through a third party news source that's still 80,000 people talking about this as a topic.

And so the debate rears its head and whether people agree / disagree, at least 80,000 people aren't acting out of ignorance.

As for people participating in this debate, it's pretty much all the usual suspects. I'm not seeing a surge in forum members due to this thread. Activity? Yeah, but I can't think of anything anyone here has said anything new outside of Coup's articulate post on the DiD trope.

A 'lot' of people commented on this thread when it started (and even more commented on it before it was cleaved in two and the distinction between general sexism debate and video game commentary was made). I know a 'lot' of people, myself included, tend to get turned off when a thread reaches a certain length because they don't want to read through argument or are lost. In the end it tends to devolve in same couple of people arguing over a few moot points, arguing just for the sake of arguing.

...

...

...

Yeah :P

But my main counter is, if there's 1 thread like this on every decent sized video game forum or community, and each is about this size (smaller or larger) that's still a LOT of people. Then add to that the non video game forums out there that have picked this up, the news sites that have comments beneath the articles.

And yes, a lot more people will ignore it than take it up, that's the nature of modern media. There's no such thing as essential viewing any more. Haven't been since there was more than 1 channel on TV.

EDIT 2: Stats for estimated internet usage just in case I get shouted at: http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

And I hate bringing numbers into an ethical debate, it tends to muddy the issue. I don't care about bums on seats, it's about the changing shape of society. Feel free to tell me my maths is absolute rubbish if you want but it's rather missing the point of my argument.

Edited by Swifthom
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This again? We've been over this already, multiple times. Do you not understand that she plans to make multiple videos? Seriously, read her kickstarter. Do you not understand that initial goal was $6000 dollars? She didn't ask for 160k. What do you suggest she do with it? What do you want from her?

Yeah, that's all bullshit.

I like that. Keep talking like that. Is she such a fragile flower of a woman and her perspectives so hallowed in your mind that you feel the need to just go apeshit when faced with questions or critique?

You pretty much sound like the "leave Britney alone!!" woman. Now that's funny.

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This is a really bad derail and you should feel bad. If you really care about what happened to the $160k, take it up on her Facebook page. That conversation will go absolutely nowhere here and isn't about video games anyway.

It is strongly related to the video that's in the title of the thread. But yea, this place has pretty much turned out to be a playground for people who're protecting Anita from evil sexist men who even attempt to question her flawless videos and actions, to the point where every comment that isn't appraisal for her is getting WTF'd and bullshit'd on. That's really all I need to see. Turns out Anita herself wasn't the one with the thinnest skin after all.

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It is strongly related to the video that's in the title of the thread. But yea, this place has pretty much turned out to be a playground for people who're protecting Anita from evil sexist men who even attempt to question her flawless videos and actions, to the point where every comment that isn't appraisal for her is getting WTF'd and bullshit'd on. That's really all I need to see. Turns out Anita herself wasn't the one with the thinnest skin after all.

Things like the kickstarter money are irrelevant with regards to the content of the video, which is what is being discussed in this thread. Also, you're probably looking for the word 'praise', not 'appraisal'.

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My my, someone's irritable tonight. "Evil sexist men"? c'mon...

Tensei is right, this has nothing to do with the content of the video nor sexism in videogames. Stop derailing please. You can totally send her a message and ask for the info yourself.

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I like that. Keep talking like that. Is she such a fragile flower of a woman and her perspectives so hallowed in your mind that you feel the need to just go apeshit when faced with questions or critique?

You pretty much sound like the "leave Britney alone!!" woman. Now that's funny.

Yep, you caught me. :roll:

I would hardly label what you said as "critique". Besides, what does the kickstarter money have to do with the actual content of the video? If you use the fact that she got extra money as a criticism, you are grasping at straws.

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I made some posts early in this thread expressing my disappointment with the quality of the video compared to the money she made from the kickstarter but at that point I was actually under the impression that that was more or less what she had set as her goal; I didn't realize that she'd set it so comparitively low to begin with

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She pocketed ALL of the money. The quality is consistent with her previous videos. But that's Kickstarter, you don't really have to use the money towards your project. You just have to release the project. But I think having done this, she will find it difficult to do another Kickstarter in the future. Hopefully people will remember that she basically just used the site to generate a paycheck.

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She pocketed ALL of the money. The quality is consistent with her previous videos. But that's Kickstarter, you don't really have to use the money towards your project. You just have to release the project. But I think having done this, she will find it difficult to do another Kickstarter in the future. Hopefully people will remember that she basically just used the site to generate a paycheck.

Honestly, Kickstarter has always seemed to me like a way for folks to get free money from naive people. :-) We'll see how this goes.

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Honestly, Kickstarter has always seemed to me like a way for folks to get free money from naive people. :-) We'll see how this goes.

That's a really cynical point of view. Tons of Kickstarter projects have been well-worth it, particularly artistic ones. I used Kickstarter myself and it was a fantastic experience. Everyone who backed it was VERY satisfied with the prizes and results. Of course the FF6 Kickstarter was also very successful and I think people will be equally pleased when we release the album.

She pocketed ALL of the money. The quality is consistent with her previous videos. But that's Kickstarter, you don't really have to use the money towards your project. You just have to release the project. But I think having done this, she will find it difficult to do another Kickstarter in the future. Hopefully people will remember that she basically just used the site to generate a paycheck.

When you say "pocketed all the money" you make it sound like she did something wrong. People donated money to her. Did you expect her to donate everything over $6000 to charity? Even some of her critics have pointed out that it is not cheap to work on video production full-time. She has posted pics of all the games she purchased for research purposes and obviously she has been hard at work on the series. Seems like she is definitely delivering on her promises and I look forward to the other 11 videos.

Honestly, this REALLY seems like you're just trolling to get a rise out of people, or you're not comfortable with the idea that maybe the status quo of video games isn't really fair or respectful to everyone.

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I liked this video. Good examples and well-edited. I thought her "lecture" diction worked well in the context of her providing some introduction and analysis. Overall, I think her point was solid; the damsel in distress trope is ubiquitous in games and objectifies/dis-empowers women. I think she could easily compare how using the old "end of the world" trope would probably have worked as well in any of these game plots, and often if paired with the damsel in distress. I would like to see her talk more about how games have (sadly) been almost entirely the domain of men and boys, with men making and marketing them for boys and young men to play. As the industry has grown, this has changed somewhat, with more and more women involved and sexism (extremely) slowly losing some of its hold on the art form. I believe this trend will continue in games, just as it has in other media. That having been said, I'm sure she will at least touch on all that, if not go into depths. I am really looking forward to the rest of her series. I'm also really interested to see where she goes with Samus, though I'm sure she will make hay out of her portrayal in Other M. I hope she remembers that that game was made by a developer (Team Ninja) well-known for objectifying women.

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I like that Wreck-It Ralph had two really solid, prominent female characters (Vanellope and Calhoun). I would love to see a game with a female lead like one of those two. I've already got a pre-order for Remember Me. Besides the unconventional lead character, the whole combo building system and memory distortion stuff looks freakin awesome.

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