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Game video trailer in need of music, 2-3 min (paid~ $150 ? )


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Aren't most composers that are consistently doing AAA film and games usually represented by agencies? That's what Mikko Tarmia told me once when I wrote to him a couple years back anyway.

Isn't it kind of like an actor? If they said, "Hey, we're auditioning for a new Batman movie and we need someone to play Batman!" they would have every wannabe in Hollywood out there auditioning and the process would be impossible. So instead, they go to a place that represents the talent they're looking for instead of trying to find it directly? I'm certain it would be the same with composers.

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Dan the,

I have a feeling you were looking in the mirror with your keyboard when you wrote this.

You come across all high and mighty as if you started off at the very top. Your attitude stinks and instead of trying to help would be composers, you come across all insecure; as if these indie composers are going to steal your thunder (what little you have)

I know I have no chance of making it in the industry, but I like what i do, and if someone else likes it too and asks me to be a part of their game,( which is happening quite frequently) then that's good enough for me.

I can envisage a vein pop out of your head when reading this, but i will continue to make music for free if that helps a game maker with no money feel better about their game.

My buzz is a nice comment from the game maker after adding the music to their game, not money.

I anticipate you will click my link and come back with, yeah but your music is shit!, my keyboard is bigger etc..

I'll say it for you. It might be, but i like it and so do those who ask me to compose for their games, and if it means I like shit music, then so be it.

I also anticipate you'll come back with, yeah they're only happy cause it's free.

Again, they are happy as am I.

Mark.

Bullshit.

I have never seen you at the Game Developer's Conference.

I've seen Zircon (Andrew Aversa), I've seen BustaTunez (Will Roget), I've seen BigGiantCircles (Jimmy Hinson), I've seen Danny B there, I've seen Virt (Jake Kaufman) there--I have never seen you there.

There are three things you need to get work as a composer in the Game Industry (and really, any of the media industries):

1) The Ability to Deliver a Product on time and of high production value.

This doesn't mean creative, it means you deliver product that is appropriate. You could be a genius composer, but if you can't meet a deadline, you're useless. Your product has to demonstrate high production value, not high creativity--though, for self-respect you should aspire to high creativity, but it's not necessary.

2) Apparent Talent

To the potential client or employer, you have to appear as though you're talented. When it comes to AAA shit, this usually comes in the form of a credit list. But all you need is for the potential employer to believe in you and be willing to stake their job on hiring you (which is no small thing to ask unless you're a superstar already).

3) A Great Professional Network that works for you.

You could be the best composer on the fucking planet, but if no one knows who you are then you will never, ever "make it." You HAVE to network, you have to network for YEARS. You have to demonstrate the first two items every time you network, but you have to do it in a way that is sociable, amiable, and accessible--in other words, they have to like you.

If you're missing any ONE of these items, you will NEVER get hired.

I have never seen you at a professional networking event and I have never seen you at the most important professional networking event: The Game Developer's Conference in San Francisco.

You have to TRY, man--otherwise you're leaving your shit to the whimsy of dumb luck.

And two things: if what you said about Jake is true, that's a shame, it really is--it's a shame he worked that cheap and it's a shame that everyone knows it now. My contracts have Non-Disclosure Agreements because posting your rates is an absolute mistake. You will NEVER be able to increase your rates if someone is looking you up on a forum and finding your rates on some old assed thread.

If any of you have posted rates, take them down--I have talked to composers who posted rates and years later still get new clients trying to hire them at those rates.

My thing: I HATE per minute rate structures. It doesn't respect the budget, it doesn't respect the project, it doesn't respect the music. It's shit and it treats music like it's fast-food in a mall food court.

I have worked on low budget games, but when the client trusts me, I've consulted on the design of the music for those games (from an overall project fee perspective)--creating a musical design where quantity is not a relevant hindrance to a good soundtrack that works for the game and fits.

I would much rather a potential client approach me by saying look, here's the game, this is the budget we have for audio, what can you do for me?

That allows me to use my creativity to design an audio vision that works for their game and within their budget constraints.

That is a much more appropriate and rational method of determining whether or not a creative professional has the IDEAS you want them to have.

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Jesus Christ. You can't mention money and work anywhere on OCR before it turns into a shitstorm. Haha

If you don't like it, you can click that little cross button at the side of your tab to close it and leave. :)

I am enjoying the back and forth. I've found it interesting and informative so far.

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Dan is 100% correct with his previous post btw, in regards to being a financially independent, professional freelancer living purely from music... that is quite exactly what it takes. However, that being said, there's absolutely nothing at all wrong with any one of us doing things the way we want them to be done. If you want to take a job, take it. Just do you and nothing else will matter.

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Aren't most composers that are consistently doing AAA film and games usually represented by agencies? That's what Mikko Tarmia told me once when I wrote to him a couple years back anyway.

Maybe at the very very top of the business. In art, most artists who are not directly employed by a game development studio work in art studios full time, or part time from home for some, and that's kind of like an agent, because the studio finds work and then delegates. This because most games have a big spike in asset production at the end (same with music), and they're on a deadline so they need it fast; the freelance ones usually do not have agents (even the more famous ones)- it's more the opposite, where the studio has a recruiter and manager for outsourcing. It's not quite Hollywood, since there's a smaller pool of professionals involved, and not as many crazy fans to irritate you. It's easy to contact a studio's art director personally. That may change some day.

...Unless they're dodging you because they owe you money, that is.

Anyway, I would assume it's similar for music beyond the superstars like Elfman, etc.

But GDC? That's like where hope goes to die. :P

I have stacks and stacks of business cards of hopefuls; most of them, oddly, musicians despite that I have never been looking for musicians when scouting at GDC (potentially a good place to scout students if that's what you're looking for, because they are in HUGE supply). IMO, not very useful for industry networking, because anybody can get in- which is why it's flooded with students and hopefuls (most of whom have little to no talent). Very low signal to noise ratio. Not saying you can't meet people there, but you really have to work at it.

The programmers there are rock stars, though. When they put on their displays of clever games at the indie booths, it's easy for everybody to notice.

E3 is a lot better. They're not usually doing much hiring there, so it's nice and quiet (well, loud music, but not "noisy"), open. You can breathe. And high signal to noise ratio. You have to prove you're in the industry to go, so there aren't many students crowding the place.

E3 is in L.A., though. I wish they'd switch. I'd probably go every year if they did.

I have never seen you at the Game Developer's Conference.

He may have been.

To be fair, it's hard to see anybody at GDC, even your hand six inches in front of your face.

One year, I only went in the lobby- met some people I knew coming or going (but that's only recognizing faces).

I'm not a fan of crowds, but to each his or her own I guess.

If you don't already know somebody, it's hard to imagine meeting people there, except by braving the crowd and going to booths and really pushing hard to squeeze in, and staying after presentations to meet relevant speakers. Most meaningful meetings I've had at GDC have been arranged by e-mail and phone, and occur outside Starbucks in that weird area that tries to pass for a park.

Tip for penny pinchers: Whole Foods' deli/salad bar area, like five minutes down the street, it just about the cheapest lunch you'll find in reasonable walking distance. I love San Francisco, but gadzooks is it expensive.

There are three things you need to get work as a composer in the Game Industry (and really, any of the media industries)[...]

If you're missing any ONE of these items, you will NEVER get hired.

In most things, a good network can compensate for lack of a professional resume of past AAA titles- get the right person to vouch for you, and it doesn't matter that much.

I would be surprised if that wasn't true for music as it is for art and programming, even with the lower demand.

My contracts have Non-Disclosure Agreements because posting your rates is an absolute mistake. You will NEVER be able to increase your rates if someone is looking you up on a forum and finding your rates on some old assed thread.

It's a difficult situation- and for artists too. It's hard to get work as an indie unless you post your rates, and unless they're fire sale rates. But then those stick around and could potentially bite you later. Without rates, most people won't contact you because they assume they can't afford it, or found somebody who did post rates that they know they can afford already.

Better, usually, to post examples and rates for those. "This piece of art would cost this", and "this piece would cost more, like this" so customers can get a sense of range. And then anybody who found it later would more easily understand the difference as well. It's also subjective enough that there's a little bit of wiggle room.

There has never been a case I can remember where an old rate of mine would really no longer apply. I am not more expensive now than I was when I was a teenager. I am faster and more efficient, and better. I can still do the same quality for the same price now; only I do it in five minutes now instead of an hour (not saying I will, just that I could). In many respects I am cheaper now, for the same quality, despite ultimately charging more per hour (though clients are rarely told hourly rates- that's a bad idea).

If that's not true of music too, and musicians really do get more expensive without getting much better (with the exception of celebrity, which is its own thing), that's a problem.

For me, if the client comes later and mentions it, I can explain that that piece is old and was done quickly- if they wanted that level of quality I could do it at that rate, but if they want good quality it will cost more.

I could draw you a stick man, or a "chibi" for a dollar if that's what you really wanted. It'll take me 30 seconds, and most of that would be saving and e-mailing it (though probably not worth the time to discuss it).

When they understand it, most clients reject that idea and decide to go with something in the middle between the two extremes. It's important to discuss references of what they want, and what level of polish they need, and then you can help them understand what it will cost to get good quality work that suits their needs.

Posting rates isn't an absolute mistake, but over-simplifying to a minute based rate might not be ideal for music, as you've said. It makes a lot of assumptions about quality and boilerplates the process.

I would much rather a potential client approach me by saying look, here's the game, this is the budget we have for audio, what can you do for me?

That allows me to use my creativity to design an audio vision that works for their game and within their budget constraints.

That's very reasonable. Same with art production.

Sometimes clients need to be reassured that they can afford you before they'll contact you at all, though. Particularly before you have enough connections to get sufficient work by word of mouth.

Posting rates isn't an act of professional suicide, but it is probably better to do it in context to a particular work.

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Jesus Christ. You can't mention money and work anywhere on OCR before it turns into a shitstorm. Haha

If you don't like it, you can click that little cross button at the side of your tab to close it and leave. :)

Real talk. I usually find Meteo to come across as a no-nonsense party pooper (yeah, yeah, and I know to some people I probably come across as a nonsensical weirdo, so I'm not one to judge :roll: ) but sometimes he is precisely right on point with topics like this, and I feel like he told it exactly like it is. There is absolutely nothing wrong with "beer money" in and of itself, it's moreso about perspective, aggressive yet humble networking, and understanding what you're trying to accomplish and achieve in the long run.

but yeeeeah, not gonna bring up too much Offtop PPR stuff, so I'm just going to say, SpookyStatic, I am 100% interested in the trailer thing as well as helping out at all with the game if it ever starts rolling (and you're still looking for musicians). Why? I just like how you're being honest and upfront and realistic about this... the reason why some of the first few posters were being really strict and throwing hardball questions is because just about once a week somebody shows up here and says "I'm making a game, make me sum musiczz" with an extremely vague description and just disappears after a while instead of honestly trying to recruit and collaborate; but I'm sensing some good, honest, focused vibes from you.

So I'ma pm you with some of my stuff, and regardless if you're not feeling it I wish you the best of luck with your project! Peace.

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My buzz is a nice comment from the game maker after adding the music to their game, not money.

I anticipate you will click my link and come back with, yeah but your music is shit!, my keyboard is bigger etc..

I'll say it for you. It might be, but i like it and so do those who ask me to compose for their games, and if it means I like shit music, then so be it.

I also anticipate you'll come back with, yeah they're only happy cause it's free.

Again, they are happy as am I.

Mark.

I don't know what you think is wrong with your music, but you're an idiot for not charging for it. There's some good stuff in there. I really enjoyed "The Impact."

If you create music for a game, and that game is sold, and the developer is making money off the sale of that game, there is absolutely no reason but for the developer's own greed that you don't see a piece of that. It's success is due in part to your work.

There should be a VERY good reason why you refuse payment on a service and it should be rare.

Indie game development, in a lot of ways, is venture capitalism. Spooky mentioned investors, but money is not the only way to invest in a product. If you work on a project with no upfront payment, you are making an investment in that project, you should expect returns--it's good to expect returns, it's good for the business as well to be able to provide returns on investments.

It's a difficult situation- and for artists too. It's hard to get work as an indie unless you post your rates, and unless they're fire sale rates. But then those stick around and could potentially bite you later. Without rates, most people won't contact you because they assume they can't afford it, or found somebody who did post rates that they know they can afford already.

Better, usually, to post examples and rates for those. "This piece of art would cost this", and "this piece would cost more, like this" so customers can get a sense of range. And then anybody who found it later would more easily understand the difference as well. It's also subjective enough that there's a little bit of wiggle room.

There has never been a case I can remember where an old rate of mine would really no longer apply. I am not more expensive now than I was when I was a teenager. I am faster and more efficient, and better. I can still do the same quality for the same price now; only I do it in five minutes now instead of an hour (not saying I will, just that I could). In many respects I am cheaper now, for the same quality, despite ultimately charging more per hour (though clients are rarely told hourly rates- that's a bad idea).

If that's not true of music too, and musicians really do get more expensive without getting much better (with the exception of celebrity, which is its own thing), that's a problem.

For me, if the client comes later and mentions it, I can explain that that piece is old and was done quickly- if they wanted that level of quality I could do it at that rate, but if they want good quality it will cost more.

I could draw you a stick man, or a "chibi" for a dollar if that's what you really wanted. It'll take me 30 seconds, and most of that would be saving and e-mailing it (though probably not worth the time to discuss it).

When they understand it, most clients reject that idea and decide to go with something in the middle between the two extremes. It's important to discuss references of what they want, and what level of polish they need, and then you can help them understand what it will cost to get good quality work that suits their needs.

Posting rates isn't an absolute mistake, but over-simplifying to a minute based rate might not be ideal for music, as you've said. It makes a lot of assumptions about quality and boilerplates the process.

I don't know what art rates are like for game assets.

I do remember, however, that 6-7 years ago, pro comic book art rates were page based depending on what you were doing--pencils, inks, flats, colors, pin-ups vs sequentials, etc.

It was like there were three tiers: The newbie rate, the standard rate, and the superstar rate.

It's kind of like that for music, but the three rates are WILDLY different. Even in AAA games, you usually see a swing between $600-$1500/min depending on the studio budget and who the composer is--and there are other issues at that level as well because music is also performance based. You might see one composer negotiate $1500/min, but they're responsible for using their rate to budget production, whereas you might see a composer negotiate $1000/min and the studio will pay for production fees like hiring an orchestra.

Music is inherently more than just the art supplies, it's performance oriented and the costs surrounding the production of music can grow exponentially.

Aren't most composers that are consistently doing AAA film and games usually represented by agencies? That's what Mikko Tarmia told me once when I wrote to him a couple years back anyway.

Consistent AAA game work is required just to have an agent. The landscape for agencies has really changed over the last 5-6 years. It used to be that there was basically one guy who represented everyone--you can probably see the problems that might cause, and it did cause those problems. Now that one guy is too old to really do business, and when the recession made the game industry look like one of the only growing entertainment sectors, film and TV agencies, like film and TV composers, really wanted a slice of that pie.

I don't know what the numbers are on representation, I know it's not all of them, but there's a good number and agencies, like with acting, have their downsides--especially if/when another composer is the agencies higher priority.

But the software industry doesn't talk the same language as Hollywood, there's a big disconnect between those two worlds and the composer sits between them.

But GDC? That's like where hope goes to die. :P

I have stacks and stacks of business cards of hopefuls; most of them, oddly, musicians despite that I have never been looking for musicians when scouting at GDC (potentially a good place to scout students if that's what you're looking for, because they are in HUGE supply). IMO, not very useful for industry networking, because anybody can get in- which is why it's flooded with students and hopefuls (most of whom have little to no talent). Very low signal to noise ratio. Not saying you can't meet people there, but you really have to work at it.

The programmers there are rock stars, though. When they put on their displays of clever games at the indie booths, it's easy for everybody to notice.

GDC:

Artists are hired at GDC, Programmers are hired at GDC. You have to be impressive, though, for sure, your shit has to really stand out, but it happens.

GDC is important for composers--yeah, it'll make you feel small, and intimidated, but at the end of the day, the gatekeepers to composition work don't post job listings for composers.

Networking is more important for the composer than I would say any other discipline.

General job listings for composers to work with AAA studios are extremely rare--I've probably seen maybe one every other year pop up. Private job postings for composers are a bit more common, they usually appear on private mailing lists or places where you have to network to get access to--however, what usually happens is that the gatekeepers for composer jobs (Music Supervisors, Audio Directors, Audio Producers) usually just ask themselves "who do I know that is perfect for game?" And they will know enough people to come up with a name.

Your job as a composer is to be known, to be known very well, and to be known for a specific sound. That's how they'll remember you and that's how you get work.

As Mark happily pointed out, I haven't done a ton of work, but I didn't audition to work on Monkey Island--the Music Supervisor at LucasArts, who I knew from GANG, who I had chatted with some frequency on AIM, and who I met on a few occasions at GDC came to me "I have a project with you in mind." He'd heard my stuff because I wasn't shy about it, but I wasn't pushy either, and he knew what I could do.

Network, but when you do, look good, be friendly.

Meteo knows how valuable a network is, I've heard him talk about his network before and the kinds of opportunities he's encountered--he just needed to be reminded.

I believe Meteo could be more successful in games than he is now, but do I believe he's doing everything in his power to achieve that? No, I don't.

Again, my biggest gripe is a composer who under-values their own music.

Sometimes clients need to be reassured that they can afford you before they'll contact you at all, though. Particularly before you have enough connections to get sufficient work by word of mouth.

Posting rates isn't an act of professional suicide, but it is probably better to do it in context to a particular work.

I agree about finicky clients--and I've met my fair share of indie game devs who really don't think there's much more value in music than that convention suggests they have it (a lot of those guys shut soundtracks off and listen to metalcore or something when playing the games they like)--but I still say, unless you know what the game is about or what kind of soundtrack they're looking for, you're really not going to have enough context to post rates.

Also, I would counter suggest that if they dig your music and aren't intimidated, the question "what are your rates?" is a great lead-in to an email conversation that would never occur if your rates are posted outright.

I think it's better business to not post them at all and recommend against it.

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The moral of the story is that if you want to hang out with bikini models and make snowmen made of cocaine, don't be a musician/artist or anything else that's fun.

You can be a musician and hang out with a bikini model, as long as they're your sister and they're only letting you crash at their place because you're a hopeless loser.

Of course, the snowman of cocaine is how you lost your house in the first place, but that's a story for another time.

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Meh, the most I ever made with music (in total) was probably close to $2,000 which I'm truly amazed that I managed to pull off since I doubt that I was really worth it, but the clients insisted.

When I was 18, I got to write some tunes for an Indie game: It died before it got half finished. I still got paid though.

Then, two years ago, when I was 19, I got another indie gig that died just the same, but I still got paid.

Also when I was 19, an industry pro actually gave me a shot at writing a few tracks for his own Iphone game (featuring one of my favorite voice actors!) which I think is at long last complete after these past few years and being submitted to the Apple store this month or something. It looks pretty sweet, so I hope it does well.

So outta 3 indie projects, 1 actually might see the light of day. I used the money to buy new music software and pay to get into college. 8)

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Also when I was 19, an industry pro actually gave me a shot at writing a few tracks for his own Iphone game (featuring one of my favorite voice actors!) which I think is at long last complete after these past few years and being submitted to the Apple store this month or something. It looks pretty sweet, so I hope it does well.

Awesome, man! Opportunities have to be taken and that means action. You're young and doing work before college--you're on a great track!

I can't recall how many dead projects I've worked on--both paid and unpaid. When you're starting out, attach yourself to as many projects as you can get your hands on. More important than the project going somewhere is the experience and the network you grow as you go.

One of the earliest student projects I worked on went to a contest and never won anything--you can download it for free now--but despite that, the designer is a level designer at EA now and that's just one more person in my network of cool people. Everything is a networking opportunity, take it!

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You can be a musician and hang out with a bikini model, as long as they're your sister and they're only letting you crash at their place because you're a hopeless loser.

Of course, the snowman of cocaine is how you lost your house in the first place, but that's a story for another time.

Oh laaawd... I can take self-deprecation, but I never like starving musician/artist jokes. that's low blow material right there... :lmassoff:

And yeah, nothing wrong with indie projects (or professional work), it all depends on the people.... played bass a bit for some gigs for some live "pros," and I just wasn't digging their ethics or their attitude, and I've had similar experiences in indie bands and vice versa. Now I just try to go with the flow, keep my head on straight, and as dannthr said go for those network-expanding opportunities ( ex., can't say it any better than this boss --->

).
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I just like how you're being honest and upfront and realistic about this... the reason why some of the first few posters were being really strict and throwing hardball questions is because just about once a week somebody shows up here and says "I'm making a game, make me sum musiczz" with an extremely vague description and just disappears after a while instead of honestly trying to recruit and collaborate; but I'm sensing some good, honest, focused vibes from you.

Yeah I've been following this thread, and while I think the job is out of my league, I just wanted to reiterate this point. Thank you for knowing what the fuck to ask and say in order to make your offer clear and concise. If I'm coming across as condescending I don't mean to be, we just get flaky wannabes in here all the time trying to make the next Super Meat Boy or FEZ or whatever.

Anyway, good on you, good luck with your project, and any other potential game developers - this is how you recruit for a game.

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Dannthr,

Yeah, comic book rates are still like that; comics are a lot simpler, so it's easy to know what to expect, and any variation from page to page tends to average out really easily. Comic artists also tend to have a trademark style, and don't have to do anything else if they don't want to- they have more freedom to just do what they do.

Game assets are much more complicated, partially because you can't just have a couple artists collaborating- you need dozens. That takes detailed references and style guides, and every project can be drastically different with regards to requirements. Same with commercial graphic art.

And then there's always a much higher chance of the client coming back and saying "no no, not like that, more cool and professional" What?

Sometimes you have to give clients higher rates just because they are a pain in the ass ;)

Usually the only way to get a good quote on a big job is to make one asset in the style and up to the specific requirements, and see how much time it takes- and more importantly, see how particular the client is, and how well she or he communicates her or his needs so you know if you'll have to do it over twenty times.

Thanks Damashii!! and therex

therex, don't sell yourself short. You should link to your music; you never know, and it can't hurt to ask.

I'd love to hear your stuff.

I looked at another thread here where somebody was trying to recruit for twenty something pieces for free. The trolling was hilarious:

Spending time to possibly get my name as a credit sounds pretty cool but it depends on a few things.

1. How long is said credit list

2. What is the font of said credit list mentioned in #1

3. How fast are these credits scrolling

These should be at the top of everyone's credit negotiation concerns as suggested to me by Zircon. Or actually it might have been a fortune cookie I just had.

The length of the list will depend on how many software programs, language support, design, etc. Also on the # of people who've submitted the songs.

Why does the font matter? it's probably going to be is some rustic times new roman/hectilva text

The credits will run as long as the ending song is. (I expect it to be pretty long)

A perfect ten, Garpocalypse. That. Was. Awesome.

Edited by SpookyStatic
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I should've said a different ballpark - I'm a chiptuner.

Oh, I see. Still pretty cool though.

As to the job, I think Tuberz McGee has this covered.

He whipped up a great sample I had to listen to like twenty times because it was such a cool mix; I think he really gets it and has passion for the genre ideas we discussed.

So, unless he gets eaten by a grue, I think this job is taken.

Thanks guys!

Expect to hear more around August (hopefully). :-)

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Dannthr,

I just want to make a public apology for my attack on you. I said some very immature things to you, which you took very well. This left me feeling quite stupid.

I've read quite a few posts on here from you, and I can see that you do provide a lot of help and encouragement to many artists.

I respect everything you have done, and love your work very much.

Again, my apologies.

Mark.

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Dannthr,

I just want to make a public apology for my attack on you. I said some very immature things to you, which you took very well. This left me feeling quite stupid.

I've read quite a few posts on here from you, and I can see that you do provide a lot of help and encouragement to many artists.

I respect everything you have done, and love your work very much.

Again, my apologies.

Mark.

No worries, man, and thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate it.

This is something for which we all have passion and despite the fact that sometimes the result is strong words on a forum, it's really a great thing to have and to see.

:)

Passion will elevate our industry.

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