FFIV - Genesis of Destruction

[audio fidelity]

I remixed (in audio terms, not musical terms) this Final Fantasy IV project track. You can download here my updated version:

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/ov0wbey0079rq/FFIV_-_Genesis_of_Destruction

I would like Zircon's mix, that was released, taken down (torrent, html links, youtube). I always felt I did everyone that spent time on it a disservice for releasing it as it came out. It was just too much of a monster to tackle back then.

Thank you Andrew, Justin, Connor, Lisa, Marcin, and everyone on the FFIV project.

[Level 99]

Jay, bro, my main, my main dawg. Glad you've been working on an updated version. I'm downloading it right now as we speak. But removing the track, even just from a fan perspective, is something I'm not really supportive of.

I think calling what was released with the album "a disservice" is pretty brutal. True, it may not have lived up to the potential you saw it as having, but it was still a solid track and a product of the project so it fits in context. Besides the difficulty in going back to replace a torrent and having everyone start seeding anew (people who already got it will have no idea to get a new version unless they came back to check and saw their torrent hash didnt match the one given by the ocr tracker), and replacing youtube stuff which resets comments as well as play count, its also kind of cheating.

People who release stuff on OCR do so knowing full well that they can't replace it or take it down afterward. It's part of the consent statement. The only replacements that have been done thus far have been on the site's behalf for getting lossless wavs of exact already existing versions of the songs to improve the posted quality when the mp3/filesize cap got up'd. Hell, even I personally have songs on here I would take down and replace with different mastering or just take down period because they sound kinda like crap to me now. In addition to being unfair and basically disrupting/undermining the whole judging and vetting process (post shit now, fix it later), it just doesn't ring of sound musical ethics.

LuIzA completely redid her version of Fire Cross, and instead of asking for it to be replaced on the site for not meeting her now-current standards, she just posted it in the thread of the song's reviews and on facebook and whatnot. What you have here is a great supplement to what already exists on the album. Supplement, not supplant.

The mix has come very far, but I just don't see the need to consider trying to replace it. If anything it does MORE injustice to it because you lose the context of what it sounded like when it was not up to your standards. I definitely appreciate your new mix more comparing it to what it was before.

[djpretzel]

Contributing to this site, and especially to an album, ultimately means participating in something larger. Albums aren't versionable, mutating things - they represent what one or more artists were willing & able to express at that point in time. I'm sympathetic to being unsatisfied (or in my case, downright embarrassed) with past works, but have always held that using that dissatisfaction as fuel for future efforts makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to rewrite history, esp. in the age of eternally cached, persisted memory.

Given that the arrangement in question was never posted as a mix, the best action would be newly submitting any desired revisions to the site as a standalone arrangement.

[audio fidelity]

I cringe when I hear the version that was released, Stevo. They've taken down other tracks in the past. Torrenting doesn't make sense these days with how fast Internett connections are. Just use a zip file. Which blows my mind that with all the work we did that we never took the extra step to do that.

I'd like it taken down.. I don't want anyone listening to the old version. Please do this for me. I don't believe the agreement is perpetual and even if it is, can't OCR do me the courtesy for contributions over the years to respect my wishes? It's just a few links and a YouTube video. It takes little time and no one really cares.

[Bahamut]

I cringe when I hear the version that was released, Stevo. They've taken down other tracks in the past. Torrenting doesn't make sense these days with how fast Internett connections are. Just use a zip file. Which blows my mind that with all the work we did that we never took the extra step to do that.

I'd like it taken down.. I don't want anyone listening to the old version. Please do this for me. I don't believe the agreement is perpetual and even if it is, can't OCR do me the courtesy for contributions over the years to respect my wishes? It's just a few links and a YouTube video. It takes little time and no one really cares.

It'd also require a complete takedown of the current torrent and releasing a new version - as far as I can recall, this was a large incentive for the content policy, because there have been other artists dissatisfied with music that they've created being present, and it occupies a bunch of time when there are multiple requests for these things.

It's a huge negative, and from what I understand of OCR's perspective, it has to be much more of a convincing reason than artist dissatisfaction that causes a removal, since that dissatisfaction could disappear one day and then an artist could try requesting it be re-added.

[audio fidelity]

I'm just asking for a favor and did so here because upon my requests I wasn't responded to before. I didn't realize I agreed for perpetual use. I believe I, as an artist, can ask for that, and I might even explore my rights to assert it. I allowed for a version of a song I worked on for many months to get released in a condition that I was coerced into. Even after all these years, listening back it's painful. The whole song leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth from the experience of how it was accepted despite my entire intention to have it be something so special and unique for the site. Sadly no one in the leadership really acknowledge the hard work and care that went into it. That's why I want it down. Because it reminds me of all that.

[Level 99]

I cringe when I hear the version that was released, Stevo. They've taken down other tracks in the past. Torrenting doesn't make sense these days with how fast Internett connections are. Just use a zip file. Which blows my mind that with all the work we did that we never took the extra step to do that.

I'd like it taken down.. I don't want anyone listening to the old version. Please do this for me. I don't believe the agreement is perpetual and even if it is, can't OCR do me the courtesy for contributions over the years to respect my wishes? It's just a few links and a YouTube video. It takes little time and no one really cares.

First, let me preface this and say removing it is not my call in the least. I'm just speaking my mind here, trying to show you some arguments against what you're asking, both from a community listener's perspective and the perspective of a staff member who's been diligent in trying to be fair and equal in molding the current album eval/posting process over the last 3 years.

I've looked and looked and I can't find an instance where a track was removed and replaced, only removed. And I can't remember any instances where any albums had tracks removed OR replaced once released, for any reason. I completely disagree about torrenting as a) it saves the site bandwidth costs, allows for efficient sharing of lossless files and large file sized extras, like the trailers, to be included, and c) provides an alternative to http/ftp downloads for people who may be limited in their website access. The average internet connection speed may be increasing but not at as large a rate as most people think. The average US connection speed is less than 5 Mbit/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_States#Access_speed), with many people still holding on to their dial up speeds due to the economy, broadband access in remote areas, satellite access coverage, and other such issues. Be that as it may, saying torrenting doesn't make sense is a bit backwards even with average internet speed taken into account. Torrenting became popular BECAUSE the average internet speed was increasing, allowing people with unlimited broadband to high-speed peer share files as opposed to taking away from a site's potentially limited bandwidth costs (servers cost a lot of money if you do a LOT of bandwidth, pending you don't cripple the servers first) and allowing for more efficient and effective sharing of files. As of this day, we do include zip files on the websites for downloading, but only of the mp3 package without lossless and extras. Again, a measure to help conserve bandwidth costs. There's a huge difference between 5,000 people downloading 300 Mb from an OCR mirror, and 5,000 people downloading a 2+ Gb package from an OCR mirror. I wasn't staff at the time FF4 was released so I don't know why it wasn't done so I can't really comment on that.

It's basically impossible to prevent anyone from listening to the old version. It's been out there for four years and you can't go into people's computers to delete it. Even if it was replaced, it wouldn't magically make people only hear the new version. If anything, it would cause additional confusion because of the identical filenames or whatever and having people seek both versions even more. From the way you're saying things, it sounds like that's the exact opposite of what you want from this.

Asking OCR to do you a favor for all of your contributions over the years is basically asking the staff to play favorites with their policies. I joined staff after being an ardent detractor to many of the things going on with the site, with one goal being to continue to represent the community at large to preserve equality, fairness, and efficiency. As someone who holds the ideal of "no one gets special treatment" higher than nearly everything else as I work on stuff for the site, you asking for a personal favor to be done to bend/break policy due to your personal contributions makes me very sad. It very much strikes me as being a step backwards as a musician, but that's just my perspective.

I empathize with you, Jay. I really do. I liken my work on the track "The World is Dreaming" to your work on "Genesis of Destruction". To me, it doesn't sound nearly as good now in comparison to what I could potentially make it were I to know then what I know now. However, it would be a disservice to everyone involved to retcon that version and replace it with one that is, only from that one creator's perspective, superior. It kind of spits in the face of everyone who contributed to it that enjoyed or spent time on the original mix if your desire is to replace it. As I said before, it's perfectly awesome to supplement it and say "hey, look at how much better/different this sounds now! compare it to the old one and see the contrast". But replacing it is, at least in my eyes, the equivalent of "I want to erase this from history, thus erasing any pride or critique on it in the process. anyone who said it sounded good before is wrong."

We may not talk as much as we used to, but as a good friend of yours, the only advice I can give is to promote and pimp your new versions to your hearts content, and then leave it be.

I'm just asking for a favor and did so here because upon my requests I wasn't responded to before. I didn't realize I agreed for perpetual use. I believe I, as an artist, can ask for that, and I might even explore my rights to assert it. I allowed for a version of a song I worked on for many months to get released in a condition that I was coerced into. Even after all these years, listening back it's painful. The whole song leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth from the experience of how it was accepted despite my entire intention to have it be something so special and unique for the site. Sadly no one in the leadership really acknowledge the hard work and care that went into it. That's why I want it down. Because it reminds me of all that.

I apologize if your requests were seemingly "ignored" before, but as you can see, Dave has already responded with his official position.

However, the fact that you feel that the version that was released before was not treated as being "special" enough. Your wording here is a bit confusing, though. When you say it was "accepted despite my entire intention to have it be something so special and unique for the site", who exactly are you referring to for that acceptance? And are you saying that it was NOT special and unique before, and only now after the new and improved version that it is?

And when you're referring to "no one in the leadership really acknowledge the hard work and care that went into it", are you talking about the old version or the new version? Its very confusing because it sounds like the only reason you made the new version and want it replaced was because people in the community here didn't trumpet the original version on the album as being something as great and spectacular as you perceived it to be (or at least perceived your original idea of what it should sound like to be). And to me, that sounds like a bit of a spiteful reason to be so defensive of the new version and so derogatory of the old one. And leadership meaning what? The album directors? OCR staff at time of release? OCR staff now?

[prophetik music]

hey, this new track is pretty good. the old one was, too.

any chance we could leave it there? =)

[StreetFlare]

To be honest, the original Genesis of Destruction was one of my favorites off that album. The amount of creative writing and character design I've done listening to that mix is, well, a lot.

The new version you suggest is also impressive, but remember - as a performer, what you have created and shared before will NEVER go away. I have to deal with that as an author and musician myself, and it's been drilled into us in Creative Writing lectures at university - anything you post on the internet can always be traced and is normally incredibly hard to remove. I'm sorry, but while this track is awesome, the only thing you can hope to do is, as djp suggested, submit to the judges and see if you can get this variation posted as a standalone - I've seen a number of tracks that have been updated and resubmitted after the album has been released.

Edited September 13, 2013 by StreetFlare

[audio fidelity]

Thanks for the comments.

#1 I am not asking for it to get replaced. Since I'm not in power to do that, I won't ask for it.

#2 I'm not stupid and I know I can't erase the old version for existence but I would like to not support the version that is still available.

#3 My feelings represent my sentiment as a whole for the amount of time I contributed to the project for the community with the treatment given back to me. I need not say more or ask for charity.

#4 I will never sub a mix again.

#5 This post will be the extent of how this mix is available.

peace

[Damashii!!]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse since you've clearly already made up your mind, so I'll keep this straight to the point. I've lurked longer than I've actually participated in this community so I have no idea what kind of treatment or feedback you received or didn't receive from this arrangement, but I know that when I first heard it a few years ago I thought it was a kick-butt arrangement (and it still is, you clearly just improved the mixing).

Most everything that has needed to be said has already been said; I see where staff is coming from and just about everybody here can relate to you in some shape or form when listening to their old stuff and cringing or chuckling.

To make a long story short I vehemently hate my first Victory Fanfare remix on Strader's FF album... vehemently. You can even ask him yourself how many times I pleaded with him during evaluation to completely remove it. When I first worked on it I was thinking "lolololol oh yeeeah a capella dubstep nyuk nyuk nyuuuk" and literally after sending the final wav to Brandon waves of embarrassment and remorse came over me. Anybody else can hear your music and find things they like about it but they'll never fully understand why you yourself, the creator, might be indifferent to it and suffer author backlash.

Fast forward to today I've now got FOUR new Victory Fanfare remixes made for Strader's upcoming albums with the inside joke being that I kept on being dissatisfied with the preceding mix; with my 'final' Victory Fanfare arrangement I deliberately chose to go full circle and make a musical homage to my first version by saying "yeeeeah, I still don't like it, but in hindsight I can acknowledge it and at least make this last remix succeed where I felt like I failed in my original approach."

I'm sure you already thought about all of this, and with your studio chops we all know that you're a siiiick producer who obviously strives to do their best. If this makes you feel better, great and I am happy... if it makes you feel even worse, I am very sorry and that wasn't my or anybody else's intention [in this thread, and imo, in the original project, at least from my perspective].

I've actually been talking a bit to Digi Valentine about this, how we can all make something pretty good and then a few weeks/months/years later be gravely disgusted with it. Again, I'm not familiar with the entire 'backstory' on how the original mix was finalized so my apologies for glossing over any details. I hope you at least reconsider submitting more stuff in the future, but peace to you too and I respect your decision if this is it.

~j

EDIT: ehhh, mostly apples and oranges. In my case, it's a dissatisfaction with past composition material (not at ALL any beef with Brandon or anybody or whatever), but for you it seems more like a disappointment with rushed production on this song and bigger disagreements on a broader scale. All I'm trying to get at is if you're sincerely 100% thinking about throwing in the OCR towel I just don't think this is the best way to walk out the door (and I'm totally not pointing fingers or crap like that because I'm mostly clueless on what really happened to/with you, but this just feels like..... a bad way to move on).

=(

Edited September 18, 2013 by Damashii!!
tl;dr

[zircon]

Thanks for the comments.

#1 I am not asking for it to get replaced. Since I'm not in power to do that, I won't ask for it.

#2 I'm not stupid and I know I can't erase the old version for existence but I would like to not support the version that is still available.

#3 My feelings represent my sentiment as a whole for the amount of time I contributed to the project for the community with the treatment given back to me. I need not say more or ask for charity.

#4 I will never sub a mix again.

#5 This post will be the extent of how this mix is available.

peace

I think you will be happier if you just move on from this experience and look to the future. It's always more productive to write new things. It also seems needlessly self-destructive to not submit more remixes to the site. You're only hurting your own exposure; you're not hurting anyone else.

[avaris]

I think you will be happier if you just move on from this experience and look to the future. It's always more productive to write new things. It also seems needlessly self-destructive to not submit more remixes to the site. You're only hurting your own exposure; you're not hurting anyone else.

Agreed.

I know how hard you tried on this track Jay. It is incredibly difficult to mix a song with this many tracks and performances. What you feel it is lacking now is only due to the time constraints the project was under. You had a separate version of the track back then that you wanted to polish more.

To get the best of both worlds why not resub the track. As a version 2 or redux of sorts. Make a few arrangement changes for the betterment of the track and call it a day. That way when a listener hears both tracks they can hear how hard work pays off. They can see how your your skills and ear have progressed over the years. They get to enjoy an old favorite song in a new way all over again. Isn't that what this site is about?

[audio fidelity]

Frankly, I don't know what this site is really about. Its so convoluted. Trying to get anything beyond the leadership is like pulling teeth. It's extremely clickish and anyone trying to do more quickly finds out. I'm done with games and been so for awhile. I was trying to fix a blemish but seems no one really cares. You think ill sub a mix I spent 9 months on with all the resources, time, and money spent to have it just get lost in the que like I have been treated before. No thank you. I have better things to do with my time. I'm done. And this is just my reaction expressed so I can get it off my chest cause I really did try for a moment. I've moved past this years ago as anyone that knows me will understand. So I leave this as a memory of the past because I don't care to give any more. I won't sub for just the merit of not caring anymore and meeting others for how much they care for those that do go beyond in contributing.

Peace.

[prophetik music]

music is love, love is music

sorry to see you go buddy =(

[djpretzel]

I think that with the passage of time it'll be this thread, and not your Echoes mix, that you'll be embarrassed of and want removed. I look forward to that day in some sense, but whether or not it comes, I'm obviously a big fan of your music and hope you continue doing your thing.

Edited September 18, 2013 by djpretzel

[audio fidelity]

Dave, if you really liked and respected my work you wouldn't ask me to change a synth lead sound that you didn't preferentially like just to get dp'd. This site isn't about you making just what you want of it. There's a community much larger with lots of passion involved. And when you lose respect and trample on that then people get frustrated and hurt. I didn't make this post with the intention to make enemies out of anyone but when pressed I wrote my mind. Make me the enemy of myself to make yourself look better if you will . I appreciate the experiences and how I have grown to better understand what I do and don't want to do; and with the process I have no regrets.

I am moving forward. I don't consider you or anyone here my enemy but I don't imagine I will contribute or work toward a common goal here again. This is old news in that, after FF4, I distanced myself from the process and community to entertain contributing meagerly on a case by case basis for others' projects here. But now, post college, with how my requests are handled and how I am left, I will be contributing elsewhere. And I know it doesn't mean much to anyone here .

[djpretzel]

Dave, if you really liked and respected my work you wouldn't ask me to change a synth lead sound that you didn't preferentially like just to get dp'd.

You're obviously harboring some pent-up issues, here, and it's not JUST about this FF4 mix. I'm definitely getting that, and the message was further conveyed by the use of dual tomato-face smileys. I think you're referring here to your track from the Teen Agent album? The context was, IIRC, we were evaluating potential mixes from the album for being included in the flood, yours came up, I thought it was badass but had a dealbreaking flaw. What am I supposed to do, ignore what I perceive as an issue? Just to check myself, Larry listened as well, he heard the same problem (independent of my pointing it out), and we determined that if it couldn't be addressed, then it could still be submitted to the judges panel, so there was an alternate route. You can be mad that the mix in question wasn't direct posted in a flood, but direct posting is intended as an EXCEPTION process, not the rule, and there was still a way to get the mix evaluated by the panel, which you yourself chose NOT to do.

That's how I recall things... what part of that is inappropriate? If you're trying to threaten me with some kind of dirty laundry, I don't think it's working, because I'm completely cool with anyone intimately observing the cleanliness of this particular laundry... if, on the other hand, the policy/process is truly that unclear to you (I believe you used the word "convoluted"), and is the cause of this misunderstanding, perhaps we can actually take steps to make it more explicit in some way.

This site isn't about you making just what you want of it. There's a community much larger with lots of passion involved. And when you lose respect and trample on that then people get frustrated and hurt.

I completely agree, except I think it's an "if" and not a "when" - I don't think we've done anything that can be characterized this way. If we did, however, you'd be right, and you're right regardless that this site isn't all about making it what I want, and you're right that there's a community much larger with lots of passion. I agree with both of those statements, and the degree to which I agree is precisely what's negated the implication itself from being accurate. In other words, no part of us not removing/replacing album tracks or posted mixes at an artist's ad hoc request involves a loss of respect, or trampling on passion. It simply represents the status quo since our Content Policy - which was revised extensively based on community feedback - went into effect. Our rationale for the policy is the same now as it was then, we continue to view it as reasonable, and we have had very few issues/objections with it since it was enacted, FWIW. I feel less like you're wanting to question this policy and more like you're wanting to question our character - i.e. character assassination. If you're genuinely interested in discussing the policy, we can do that, but I'm not getting the sense that's what you're actually interested in talking about, based on... well, every word you've written.

I didn't make this post with the intention to make enemies out of anyone but when pressed I wrote my mind. Make me the enemy of myself to make yourself look better if you will .

That's... a complicated concept. I think you're giving me too much credit or reading into this too much. I'm not remotely that deviously inventive... stop throwing tomatoes at me.

I appreciate the experiences and how I have grown to better understand what I do and don't want to do; and with the process I have no regrets.

Cool

I am moving forward. I don't consider you or anyone here my enemy but I don't imagine I will contribute or work toward a common goal here again. This is old news in that, after FF4, I distanced myself from the process and community to entertain contributing meagerly on a case by case basis for others' projects here. But now, post college, with how my requests are handled and how I am left, I will be contributing elsewhere. And I know it doesn't mean much to anyone here .

Whatever else you do, you should always be moving forward, and you should always FEEL like you're moving forward, and I certainly can't fault you for that. It does mean a lot to me, by the way - getting to hear your very thoughtful, varied, & impressive arrangements means a lot. Your Monkey Island mix on HvV and your Evermore mix on Unsung Heroes are two of my favorite arrangements on the site. But I guess it doesn't mean so much that I would make exceptions or compromise site policies that I feel benefit everyone - the entire community. To change my mind on issues like that requires sound reasoning and pointing out things that we've missed in our Content Policy, not guilt-tripping us, lambasting us, or asking for special exceptions based on a perceived debt that we owe you. That feels more like a problematic sense of entitlement to me - I have to call it as I see it - and I don't know how to express that to you in such a public context without making it a bit embarrassing for everyone involved.

But I guess I just tried...

Edited September 18, 2013 by djpretzel

[audio fidelity]

A fair and cool-headed response but those tomatoes were for me.

[djpretzel]

A fair and cool-headed response but those tomatoes were for me.

See there, you just undermined my entire elaborate reaction with a zinger... My bad, tomato remarks rescinded.

[Liontamer]

I'll just comment on the clique thing. It definitely wouldn't have mattered if someone on staff or someone super-duper friendly with staff made this same request. Not sure why that came up, but that's not how we operate. Except for me. If I want to yank "Funky Monkey Love", then this site will be forced to lay it down, Donkey.

[prophetik music]

If I want to yank to "Funky Monkey Love", then this site will be forced to lay it down, Donkey.

fixed that for you.

[KyleJCrb]

"Funky Monkey Love" should be the track that starts automatically playing whenever you visit the site. Or "Hillbilly Rodeo".