Sign in to follow this  
Liontamer

OCR01532 - *YES* Seiken Densetsu 3 'At First Innocence'

Recommended Posts

title: At First Innocence

remixer: zyko

game: Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2)

released: 1995 by Square

composer: Hiroki Kikuta

system: SNES

remix of the track, Innocent Sea

enjoy.

------------------------------------------

http://snesmusic.org/v2/download.php?spcNow=sd3 - "Innocent Sea" (sd3-1-14.spc)

Opened all weird for the first few seconds, with the woodwinds sounding like random flubs at first. Source came right in at :09 on da geetar with some nice harmonization shortly after. Trippy weed vocals around :47 before some SNES-style melodic instrumentation came in at 1:04. The mix of organic and synthetic elements worked nicely, and the arrangement built off the flexible base of the original very nicely as well. The simplicity of the source allowed weed to go in a lot of directions with this one. The woodwind sounded synthetic, but not bone dry, which helped it blend better with the other instrumentation.

The time/tempo change from 3:39-3:46 felt really awkward, but otherwise moved back into another nice iteration of the original, closing out with some brief vocals. Good expansion and evolution of the source with the arrangement here. Hard to come to grips with on the first listen due to seeming so unorthodox and meandering, much like ktriton's Wild ARMs 2 mix, for example. Yet, much like Kunal's work, this was well-made and engaging.

YES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I absolutely love the ideas you have going on here. This mix reminds me a lot of the music from Laputa: Castle in the Sky, or any of the Miyazaki film scores, really. The romantic guitar tremolo layered with slow, ethnic percussion, picking, asian flutes... it's all gorgeous in concept. But I'm afraid to say that your execution isn't living up to the arrangement. Problems:

- The guitars are noticibly out of tune, on both ends of the spectrum. I just can't let that slide.

- Your pan flute part isn't working for me. You start off the mix with a short slide followed by four seconds of silence; whaaaaat? If you're gonna intro it like that, at least have the flute extend into the rest of the music. And in every other instance it returns, it sounds choppy and ineffective. Gotta be smooooooooth!

- The music box part is likewise choppy, and sounds out of tune with the guitars.

- Something really funky going on at the 3:46 transition.

The guitar strumming starting at 3:04 is actually executed well (other than the tuning)- a welcome change. Everything else sounds clumsily performed and mixed with no sensitivity to the overall balance of parts. Pleeeeaaase, don't throw this away! It's just gonna take a lot more effort in recording and mixing to appropriately carry the arrangement, which is superb.

NO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotta agree with pixie on this one. I'm REALLY liking the concept/style of the mix, and the arrangement. You keep the sort of sad, empty feel of the original while still giving it your own spin, which is, after all, what this site is all about. I also think the choice of instrumentation suits the style you chose well. That being said, the execution is definitely very weak and brings the whole mix down. As Jill pointed out, the guitar is out of tune. I'm not normally a stickler for this kind of stuff, but it sticks out too much for comfort. The performance itself seems to me to be on point, but you gotta tighten up that tuning. Then, you've got some VERY General MIDI-ish percussion, music box, and pan flute. I've heard your other mixes, I know you have access to better sounds, why not use them? The contrast between the fakey sampled stuff and your high quality guitar playing is very obvious. I also have to agree that the intro (before the guitar comes in) seems to be superfluous.

The pan flute part towards the end is very sloppy, with some flubbed notes and off-rhythms; plus, the pitch bends just sound bad straight up. They're too fast, and the flute itself is very dry, which makes 'em sound even worse. I think the music box and percussive parts could also use additional reverb to make them sound at least a little better, if you don't plan on changing the sample, and I would probably take another look at the timing of the music box at a few points as it sounds off.

If you rerecord the guitar part in tune and redo the MIDI stuff to sound more realistic, I'll have a lot more reason to yes this. So, go for a resub. Until then...

NO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this the piece where you sampled your guitar? at least the rhythm guitar sounds like it could be sampled.

I have no problem at all with the samples. I think it's a bit too picky to reject this track due to sample quality. The samples are used well, they sound smooth, not grating. They arent unpleasant in the least; in fact, I enjoyed the pan flute.

The only criticism i agree with is that the tuning of the guitar is irritating at times. It's consistently out of tune, but It's only bothersome from time to time.

Ultimately, the production criticims don't even come close to outweighing the awesome arrangement and atmosphere.

YES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha, mix starts off sounding like the theme from M.A.S.H.

Enjoying the off-tune sound personally. Gives it an old-fashioned sound where one wouldn't expect everything to be pristine-studio production. It rarely gets bad enough to 'cause the mix to sound bad. There are a couple of "cringe" moments, but it quickly recovers to the point where I start to assume it's intentional.

The pan flute that comes in after 3:00 is pretty. This sounds like the theme for a lonely pirate now or something.

The transition at 3:46 was only awkward because of those three music-box notes. If you doused them, it'd be a smooth transition.

No reason to reject this mix. It's a beautiful work of arrangement, and the sound quality isn't anywhere near bad enough to reject.

YES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aight, first of all, I now need a hug. kthx

Now then, First of all, I have to give this a NO, because we already have too many stoopid techno remicksez on da site, and I only likes acoostic trax, aight?

NO

But seriously, though, this is a pretty dang awesome remix. If that's a live guitar, then I'd re-record and pay particular attention to the damn G-string, because it is flat as hell, and it really bothers me. I like the detuning of most other notes, but that G is like when you're playing live, and the one string is so out of tune that it makes the listener cringe through the whole song, whereas they'd otherwise be totally digging it. If it's sampled, then this should be no problem, as you can simple tune it up a couple cents and re-render.

Arrangement, mood, and technique bow tribute to the source to the max, but I just can't appreciate or accept that flat-ass G until it's fixed. See previous vote. Easy YES if that's fixed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ultimately, this is too far out there to successfully reach many listeners who, undoubtedly, will have trouble getting past the intonation and gutsy lack of uber-elitist musicality.

contrary to common belief, i intend 95% (the other 5% is unaccounted for but has at times been attributed to divine intervention and/or random luck) of what i do and will not refine and resubmit. i think some of you have, again, missed the point but that's alright; it has come to be expected.

you leave me no choice; this simply isn't up to site standards

NO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, THAT was unexpected.

Look, all I know is that to me this is substantially above bar with the arrangement, and I thought the soundscape was well-done. I'm clearly not a guitarist, but everything sounded fine on that level to me regardless of what was out of tune; sounded more than competantly musical to me.

Like BGC's vote, I'm not against voting NO on a sub when everything's good except one glaringly weak problem; I've certainly done that before and haven't had any qualms after the fact. But I didn't feel that was the case with this particular sub.

Perhaps in my case, it's me simply being more familiar with weed's style and not being put off by an untuned string. And of course while I didn't have any significant issue with the flute, I can understand why it was criticized. In any case, Jon T, who's away for the week, was going to YES this, so I'm calling for this to go for a full vote.

Obviously weed can't vote YES on his own sub; it's not ethical, so we've never allowed a judge to do it. And ultimately a judge can NO their own submission (it has happened it the past). But to me it seems more like weed giving out an emotional reaction to the NO votes, throwing his hands up in the air. On that level, I'm not gonna count his vote.

For weed regarding his frustration here, beyond the 3 NOs all saying the arrangement is solid, there are also 3 unreserved YES votes. Let's all keep that in mind and see what the others have to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh don't get me wrong, larry, it wasn't an emotional thing at all. there really is already an expectation that my personal style is not congruent with the site guidelines that goes back a ways. this is far from the first tack to not meet the guidelines so i am not surprised.

in all honesty, i think my vote definetly should count. you're right, part of the reason the track doesn't bother you as much is because you are familiar with my work. that said, it is what it is.

i say count my vote. it is still a valid vote because it is my opinion (and opinion is valued here, no?).

however, i will comment on this:

Everything else sounds clumsily performed and mixed with no sensitivity to the overall balance of parts. Pleeeeaaase, don't throw this away! It's just gonna take a lot more effort in recording and mixing to appropriately carry the arrangement, which is superb.

while i am touched by your adjuration to keep it, i want to clarify that i do not write music for the site or any site for that matter. it isn't going anywhere, darling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you're right, part of the reason the track doesn't bother you as much is because you are familiar with my work. that said, it is what it is.

I'm not too familiar with your music outside your FF7 remix on the site, and yet I still think this is above the bar in regards to our guidelines.

However I think voting NO on your own mix is an awfully pretentious thing to do. If you don't want it posted, then take the thread down. Otherwise let the other judges vote on your mix properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ultimately, this is too far out there to successfully reach many listeners who, undoubtedly, will have trouble getting past the intonation and gutsy lack of uber-elitist musicality.

contrary to common belief, i intend 95% (the other 5% is unaccounted for but has at times been attributed to divine intervention and/or random luck) of what i do and will not refine and resubmit. i think some of you have, again, missed the point but that's alright; it has come to be expected.

you leave me no choice; this simply isn't up to site standards

NO

You can's seriously expect someone to read a response like this and think it's not emotional. Also, perhaps you should re-read my vote. Or perhaps I should have worded it a little different--because really, my vote is more of a "YES, on the condition that the G-string is fixed" rather than a "No, tweak/rework/resub".

Really. I don't think a couple cents is a rediculous thing to ask. You may not have directed this personally toward me, but I'll ask anyway. Do you really think my intent was to flare an opinion of a "gutsy lack of uber-elitist musicality"? Listen. Though I'm not personally as intimate with your style as Larry or anyone else may be, I not only realized, but also appreciated and accepted the style and technique (which I already mentioned at the bottom of my vote).

Seriously, bro, I mean this in the best way, with the utmost respect to you and your song. Tune the G string up about 11 cents. A de-tuned instrument is acceptable. An out-of-tune instrument is not. It's no accident that I'm only requesting ONE string to be addressed.

If you choose to interpret that as me dissing your style, then that's your agenda. I assure you, I'm not. Take this as you will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BGC - it really had nothing to do with your vote; i don't even know you, guy. i've outgrown believing in the easter bunny and santa claus a long time ago and as a result, i'm not offended by a rejection. hell, nausea lovestroke was a very personal track and it was rejected from the site and it didn't get under my skin. my statement that i make music for personal reasons before entertainment is a safe statement.

besides, this wouldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, be the first track rejected from the site

so yea, i mean this in the most straightforward, honest way: it is really not that big of a deal.

if it goes on, it goes on. if it doesn't, it doesn't.

========

haha, i didn't say it wasn't pretentious. however, perhaps the fact that i submitted the piece BEFORE i was reinstated as judge plays a role. what if being exposed to the terms of the guidelines has made me question my own track? do you really have any entitled authority to assume another's motivations? i was inspired to vote NO on my own track because i agreed with most of zircon's reasoning behind his NO.

...TO, buddy

it isn't entirely pretentious, to be true. if anything, the ability to reject my own work is not a sign of personality error but of a trait that maybe you simply don't possess and can't relate with. i have the ability to be unnaturally subjective even towards my own music.

your willingness to open your mind and accept my explanation sits squarely on your shoulders.

how do you like me now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
how do you like me now?

I can pretty much say I don't. That doesn't change the fact that I liked the piece and think it should be posted, and also that I think it's a stupid idea for a judge to be allowed to judge his own work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
how do you like me now?

I can pretty much say I don't. That doesn't change the fact that I liked the piece and think it should be posted, and also that I think it's a stupid idea for a judge to be allowed to judge his own work.

great! at least now we both know that i haven't ever liked your arrogant aussie fag ass, either.

this has nothing to do with each other's music (i assume this because i actually like your music a lot) but the less we say to each other, the happier i am.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
great! at least now we both know that i haven't ever liked your arrogant aussie fag ass, either.

this has nothing to do with each other's music (i assume this because i actually like your music a lot) but the less we say to each other, the happier i am.

:)

I'll be sure to keep my arrogant, Australian, gay donkey to myself then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
great! at least now we both know that i haven't ever liked your arrogant aussie fag ass, either.

this has nothing to do with each other's music (i assume this because i actually like your music a lot) but the less we say to each other, the happier i am.

:)

I'll be sure to keep my arrogant, Australian, gay donkey to myself then.

nah, the donkey ain't no trouble; just be sure to leave a muzzle on her

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

D:

Come on, guys, let's not make a big deal about this. Whether or not zyko was reacting emotionally in his vote shouldn't matter. I'm of the opinion that judges shouldn't vote on their own mixes, regardless of their decision to YES or NO it, but we can discuss it elsewhere... preferrably when tensions aren't so high.

(Hehehe, donkey... See? Donkeys are funny. Let's talk about that.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, in retrospect i realize that i should not have included the "NO" at the end of my comment. it was pretentious and i do not deny that but i also, naturally, trust my impulses because there would be no reason not to. so i apologize for the vote. you're right; a judge should not vote on his own piece and i ought to have known better

that does not, however, go to say that i am not bothered by some of these shifty panel attitudes. i find it troubling that while my only caustic comment was aimed directly at pixie, it was not her who took offense to it but two unrelated bystanders, one of which has a history of being hotheaded (engaging in a prolific conflict with graylightning is akin to having a problem with diaper-stinky babies).

back to donkeys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the tuning is a problem for me, but even before the votes started rolling in, i knew I'd pass this.

creative, ethereal, and slightly weird. this is classic zyko, and it'd be a shame to forgo this one.

YES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this - it definitely has that old western feel to it. I personally don't feel that the guitar is off-key; yes the tuning is not exact, but it makes the whole mix sound more acoustic, if that makes any sense. Anyway, we're all autonomous here and I don't have to answer to any of you. So.

YES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyway, we're all autonomous here and I don't have to answer to any of you. So.

YES

Pulled a Wingless right there! Go bro! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you vote NO on your own mix, that means that you don't think it belongs on OCR, and therefore you should not have submitted it in the first place, so we should treat that kind of thing as a retraction of submission.

In any case, now that people have cooled down and talked about donkeys, I think a vote is in order.

I like this and I don't give a rat's ass about the intonation, because the detuned sound in this context is effective. Performance is competent, and the arrangement isn't bad. It's expressive and produced well, so YES.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this