4. submitted Final Fantasy X - To Zanarkand (Piano Trio)

[suikun]

An arrangement of "To Zanarkand" for piano trio (piano, violin and cello) titled "Yuna at Zanarkand, Her Mind on Lost Friends". It was a lot of fun and a great exercise to bounce the melodies between the different instruments to give them all their spotlights. Spinning counterpoints from previous melody snippets is such a great cheat.

All instruments are modeled (i.e. synthesized on the fly) and don't use samples. It's amazing not having to fight them to get them to do what I want or wrestle with sampling limitations and inconsistencies. The downside is that you have to explicitely tell them what to do in excruciating detail.

Update (16.06.22):

Changed the attachment to the current WIP. The second part is done, so at least all notes are put down. Now to the ardous task of humanization...

Update (30.06.22):

Updated to somewhat final version and decided on the title. The realism can probably improved a bit more, but for now I'm out of ideas. I'll let it sit for a few days to listen to it again with fresh ears, but I think the mix should be fine.

Update (10.07.22):

Some finishing touches here and there. Ready for review!

Update (25.07.22):

Updated with the submitted version.

Original song:

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by suikun

[H36T]

I thought this was going to be for three pianos hahaha. A bit disappointed but then pleasantly surprised. It's a decent start. I think even if the automations and such get much better, unless the mix is unbelievably exquisite and emotional, I'd want more originality. Maybe in a B section?

 

What do you mean by modeled by the way?

[suikun]

Updated the first post with a somewhat current WIP. I've added the second part, so at least the arrangement is done. Now follows all the detail work like humanization and whatnot. Hours and hours of CC curve editing...

I've taken care that everything should still be humanly playable. All of the violin's double stops work out fine. Starting at 2:51 the piano will have to do some far jumps in the left hand, but there should be enough time...I guess?

@HarlemHeat360 The instruments are not sampled. The sound is created on the fly, so they are actually closer to a synthesizer.

[Rukunetsu]

Very nice work here - I look forward to hearing the final product; I would only say to not get over caught up in the technical aspects of what you're doing here, and to just have fun.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Rukunetsu

[suikun]

Updated the first post with what is probably the final version. I'll let it sit for a few days and then probably switch over to ready for review.

[Woody mC]

LOL, was tricked just like @HarlemHeat360 --- first thought of three pianos as well, hehe.

Considering these are modeled instruments, the outcome sounds very convincing, with the piano being the most realistic member of the trio IMHO.
The spotlight time slices for each instrument seemed pretty evenly distributed to me, so that sounded like a very smooth and lovely composition to my ears.

Fun thing to see a growth in use of instrument modeling tho; I've had an eye on this for years now, but was never very satisfied, at least on my particular domain (i.e. pipe organ synthesis).

[suikun]

And it's done! I guess? Let's see what the review says.

@Woody mC The piano I'm using is Pianotec from Modartt and they also have a modeled organ. I haven't looked into it much though. The strings are Audio Modeling SWAM and I don't think I will ever buy sampled strings again. Modeled instruments are just so much more enjoyable to use.

Edited July 10, 2022 by suikun

[Hemophiliac]

Piano trio is a lovely take for a remix.

The performances generated for the strings are lovely and well executed, however; they are produced very dry.  They need reverb.  I expect that there will be an issue with the track passing if you already submitted it due to that.

I think that the overall structure may be too close to the original for the site standards despite new part writing for the violin and cello.

Despite my gripes I did enjoy this and getting the modelled strings to sound good is tough, they just need reverb for added realism.

[suikun]

@Hemophiliac After listening back to it I think I agree on the reverb. It's already there but intentionally pulled down because I really don't want it to mud up the mix, but I actually invested a lot of time into shaping it using EQ and whatnot. I upped it by 4db and it added more to the realism than I anticipated and less mud than I thought it would.

I've updated the main post with the version I actually submitted. It has some more subtle vibrato changes, and also increased reverb. My mail submission linked to my personal webspace, so I just swapped out the old file with the one with more reverb. I'll just cross my fingers that the process is slow enough so that they hadn't downloaded it yet.

Edited July 25, 2022 by suikun

[Woody mC]

The increased reverb indeed makes a huuuuge difference in my ears (for the better, of course) and provides a way more "natural" feeling for me, compared to the former version I listened to.
Great to see (well, hear) that you gave it a polish, and even greater to read that you submitted your creation!

BTW, I already had my fingers on the pipe organ model by Modartt --- it sounds pretty nice and realistic for what it is, however, if you're as nit-picking on the details as I am, it's still worlds apart from a (carefully) sampled organ (not to mention the real ones, as each of these instruments works accurately *only* in the place/building it was designed for). If you're familiar with my coincident 1624 Scherer organ OoT recording, I think it's not hard to guess what I'm referring to...

[suikun]

@Woody mC I've never dealt with a sampled organ before and I'm not familiar with the instrument's intricacies, but I'd assume that producing a satisfactory result using samples is significantly easier than for strings (no velocities and legato transistions to worry about?), so getting the authentic experience that way sounds reasonable. I've played the violin myself many years ago, and sampled solo strings just make me want to pull my hair out. If you know what the instrument is capable of, the limitations and one-off sampling issues just drive you nuts. The SWAM solo strings are the first I've actually enjoyed using.

[Woody mC]

Yep, this is indeed true for strings (or other instruments), where you have to take control over a lot of parameters. In these cases, you're better off with models rather than samples --- and, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding, you definitely did a masterful job on your arrangement!

[Hemophiliac]

22 hours ago, suikun said:

@Hemophiliac After listening back to it I think I agree on the reverb. It's already there but intentionally pulled down because I really don't want it to mud up the mix, but I actually invested a lot of time into shaping it using EQ and whatnot. I upped it by 4db and it added more to the realism than I anticipated and less mud than I thought it would.

I've updated the main post with the version I actually submitted. It has some more subtle vibrato changes, and also increased reverb. My mail submission linked to my personal webspace, so I just swapped out the old file with the one with more reverb. I'll just cross my fingers that the process is slow enough so that they hadn't downloaded it yet.

When writing for acoustic instruments the arrangement will dictate the "mud".  You can get away with perfect 5ths and octaves in the very low ranges, it's when you start writing harmonic intervals closer than a 5th that it can get muddy.  If you want sonic clarity you just have to avoid writing close harmony in the low ranges.  Considering that a violin can only play as low as G3 (on normal tuning), it's not getting into the ranges where close harmony with the cello will get very muddy.  The intervals will still sound like separate instruments and not just mud.

This chart has some suggestion for ranges on intervals where they can be still distinguished as two separate notes.  I do find it helpful when writing for live performance, and it can also apply to writing in other genres as well, it's just a suggestion anyways.

Write as though you were thinking about actual performance, not just for a DAW to playback.

While this sounds better, I do think the arrangement may still be too conservative and close to the original.  Good luck on your submission.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Hemophiliac

[suikun]

@Hemophiliac Interesting. Maybe I was using the wrong approach due to how I learned mixing mainly through YouTube. Tutorials hardly use orchestra music for demonstration, so the way "mud" develops (e.g. overlap from untuned percussion, resonances from recording etc.) and is handled is very different.

I was actually already considering the intervals, but rather based on instruments and sections. For example close writing in the flutes is fine but for trombones open writing is better. The goal is of course to avoid smearing the sound from a musical point of view but so far I hadn't considered this in the context of mixing. In hindsight it is of course obvious, but in my head composing and mixing were two separate and independent stages with independent problems.

That is also why increasing the reverb just worked. The writing was already clean with regards to intervals, resonances were fixed before the reverb and recording issues can't be present due to the instruments being modeled.

[HLEET]

That's kind of relaxing. Very nice