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DarkOmenDKA

What happened to Unmod?

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I think The Coop's ideas about keeping porn softcore, within designated threads, and including a "Not safe for work" disclaimer are all very reasonable suggestions. The way I understand it, porn was never the main issue with UnMod, and played only a minor role in Dave's decision to put an end to it. Still, I would understand if he decides not to allow that sort of thing, since things could get sticky (no pun intended) if people started bending the rules. There will definitely be thorough discussion on the matter.

I also agree that fad threads should not have a place in OffTopic, as they are a waste of space and really junk up the queue. As for mock and +1 threads... It's hard to say. Some of those things were funny, but the sheer quantity of them was a little ridiculous. The classics like "...and it made me smile" are harmless and fun, but I think they should be kept to a minimum. There really is no point treating a forum like a slow AIM chatroom.

My opinion is that OffTopic should follow the general trend of GenDisc in that all threads have a productive purpose. If there are a few things that aren't officially "topics of discussion," but geared more towards posting artwork and the like (even if there’s a little porn), I see no harm in that. The problem with fad/mock/+1 threads is that they quickly become less about humor and more about increasing one's postcount. I know some of you may be thinking, "What's the harm in that?" So let me explain my reasoning.

It seems like the whole postcount phenomenon actually had a negative effect on the UnMod community, and contributed largely to our reasons for deletion, in the end. When new people joined the forum, whether justified or not, they were usually teased or told to GTFO. Because of this, they felt like the only way people would take them seriously is if they increased their postcount– and fast. While seemingly harmless at first glance, this phenomenon is what became the main catalyst for the following issues:

  1. Flame wars: The more the n00bs posted, the more they were mocked. It was obvious that they were posting every few seconds, and that became an annoyance to the people who had been around longer, so insults were flung left and right.
  2. Popularity contests: All anyone wants in life is to fit in. By increasing post count, n00bs and regulars alike seemed to think that they would be more accepted– or at least remembered– and so UnMod became one big popularity contest.
  3. Mob mentality*: With everyone trying so hard to impress each other, people started to lose their individuality. Fad threads flooded the forum because a lot of members couldn't (or were afraid to) think of any original ideas. And that, my friends, is what led to this:
  4. Abuse: The reason that UnMod was eventually deleted. At first, the abuse stayed primarily within the forum, and the mods were extremely lenient about this for a very long time. However, that "mob mentality" grew stronger and stronger with every passing day. Ultimately, it got so bad that whenever there was a major change to the site design, staff, policies– you name it– the abuse began to spill over into GenDisc and other forums. It was simply a headache to have to deal with this level of immaturity. People started complain about the changes, the moderation, the remixes, and the staff as though they were entitled to do so with no consequence– and publicly, in the clean forums! Of course not everybody in UnMod took part in all this, and we all recognize that fact, but the only solution we could find to this problem of abuse was to create OffTopic.

OffTopic as a new forum is out attempt at compromise, I assure you all! It would be impossible to please everyone, but it’s our best shot, and I hope those mature enough to understand the situation will give it a chance. Nobody intended to bulldoze your home on the internet– just provide a reasonable substitute. If you are one of those people that simply needs a place with no rules, you’re out of luck. The abuse had to go in the end, because unless Dave hired 20 extra mods to police the forums, it would have been a physical and emotional headache for the entire staff. We want OCR to be a welcoming place for everyone... everyone who is willing to play nice around these here parts. ^_~

I think most people are willing to admit that there have been some mistakes made in the process of this transition. Nobody knows how or why the writer’s thread was deleted, but it was clearly an accident. A few people may have been banned who did not necessarily deserve it, but you must understand that the whole alt account business is confusing, and the mods are looking into it as we speak. If everyone could have a little faith that we are sorting things out to the best of our ability, I think OffTopic will turn out just great!

*(As a side note, I believe this "mob mentality" is also what caused the site staff to overlook some valid issues during our transition that a few of the more thoughtful posters have now brought forth. It is not exactly reasonable to accuse us of lumping everyone together, when it was clear that an enormous proportion of UnModders could not think for themselves, and abused the forums together as an entity. We have always acknowledged that there are exceptions, and apologize to any and all of those who did not take part in the trouble.)

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I do not understand how a community just chatting it up and having fun is considered "un-useful" as it is constantly stated.

Unless the board etiquette of flooding and overt image bombing isn't used, just keeping it within reason isn't so bad.

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I do not understand how a community just chatting it up and having fun is considered "un-useful" as it is constantly stated.

Unless the board etiquette of flooding and overt image bombing isn't used, just keeping it within reason isn't so bad.

As I just attempted to explain in my TLDR post :P...

We all want to keep it within reason. The "un-useful" thing isn't a problem in and of itself; it's that too much junk encourages people to post for the sole purpose of increasing their postcount. And that's what caused all those icky things I listed above, which resulted in UnMod's end.

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My opinion is that OffTopic should follow the general trend of GenDisc in that all threads have a productive purpose.

Looks like I have no place in off topic.

From your description it appears it will be quite....boring.

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As I just attempted to explain in my TLDR post :P...

We all want to keep it within reason. The "un-useful" thing isn't a problem in and of itself; it's that too much junk encourages people to post for the sole purpose of increasing their postcount. And that's what caused all those icky things I listed above, which resulted in UnMod's end.

That is understandable. However, I think it's important to remember that "productive" and "useful," as they pertain to threads, are relative terms. After all, I can see how one could deem PPR, Gendisc and the upcoming OT, as utterly useless and non-productive and be correct.

As Coop pointed out, it is difficult to define where certain threads fall- it would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater- to employ a tired cliche.

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This is all wrong, and almost insulting to UnModders. Fad threads originated because we couldn't think for ourselves?

With all due respect, are you fucking kidding me?! Fad threads were created because it was an UnMod meme. End of story.

All threads should have a productive purpose? Define productive. Back in UnMod, if a thread made me chuckle, it was good enough to exist. I think most of us are afraid that Off-Topic is just gonna become Gen-Disc #2.

I think maybe some of the mods mistook general UnMod mischief as post-whoring. But that's just one more piece of evidence that shows the people who authorized the deletion of UnMod just didn't understand what was going on.

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OffTopic as a new forum is out attempt at compromise

I would like to underscore this point. There are intelligent (former) UnModders and OCR staff members, yet it often feels like there is a huge wall separating them. Despite a lot of the recent events that, on the surface, appears to have widened the chasm, I also feel like, especially on IRC, the lines of communication have been opening up.

Even on the boards, I feel like both sides realize that they have necessarily acted with their best judgement the past few days, as evident in many posts in this very thread, and I think both sides, whether they were involved in the recent happenings or not, wish to make amends for any sore spots between the two groups. In summary, I think a cohesive OCR community is best for the site and for its members.

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Actually Pixie, from the things I watched, join dates and post counts weren't the source of all that much.

Post count increases were more of a joke than anything else. People with large post counts were being called postwhores and told "You have no life", as opposed to being considered people to look up to, or "the elite". There's a reason the phrase "You're not your post count" has been floating around UnMod for a long, long time. And really, even join dates were used more in a sarcastic way than as a legit weapon. When someone from say 2004 would comment, "UnMod sucks compared to how it was when I joined", that's when someone from 2003, 2002 or earlier would comment along the lines of "How would you know? You joined after it was already shitty".

Perhaps in the beginning, post counts and join dates were used against people with real intent. But by the time 2005 was over, anyone referencing post counts and join dates as a means to discount someone's comment was making a joke, and not being serious. Sure, some of the newbies took the comments seriously and got offended or upset, but that was more a result of not being able to detect the sarcasm, than actual intended maliciousness. Yes, there were exceptions, but they were just that... exceptions. Not the rule.

There were plenty of newbies who got respect for how they posted and did things, and there are plenty of regulars who still catch shit to this day, despite how long they've been here or how much they've posted. How a given newbie (or poster in general) acted was the main source of potential flaming and put downs over the years. Not post counts, and not join dates.

Of course, that's just my opinion based on my own experiences.

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Join dates may have been the actual mark of a more experienced UnModder, but I am absolutely certain that many new people still used postcount to try to "make up" for it. I've talked to people who admited it behind the scenes, because they wanted to feel more welcome.

And regardless, just seeing tons of fad threads contributes to the "mob mentality," because it encourages more to pop up. ;)

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You would be wrong then, the whole +1 thing was a joke.

No one's worth was "actually" assessed by their post count, unless that individual was brand new.

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Join dates may have been the actual mark of a more experienced UnModder, but I am absolutely certain that many new people still used postcount to try to "make up" for it. I've talked to people who admited it behind the scenes, because they wanted to feel more welcome.

And regardless, just seeing tons of fad threads contributes to the "mob mentality," because it encourages more to pop up. ;)

I fail to understand why this merits the sudden deletion of an entire forum.

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Join dates may have been the actual mark of a more experienced UnModder, but I am absolutely certain that many new people still used postcount to try to "make up" for it. I've talked to people who admited it behind the scenes, because they wanted to feel more welcome.

And regardless, just seeing tons of fad threads contributes to the "mob mentality," because it encourages more to pop up.

I fail to understand why this merits the sudden deletion of an entire forum.

Oh my God... are you serious? You obviously missed my essay post on the last page, in which I explained the reasons UnMod was deleted in extreme detail. Please take the time to read what people are saying before making assumptions. That goes for everyone.

EDIT:

The post is on page 22. I didn't realize this post would be the first on 24. ^_~

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There were plenty of newbies who got respect for how they posted and did things, and there are plenty of regulars who still catch shit to this day, despite how long they've been here or how much they've posted. How a given newbie (or poster in general) acted was the main source of potential flaming and put downs over the years. Not post counts, and not join dates.

Of course, that's just my opinion based on my own experiences.

I second this. I was never that deep in Unmod, but I don't recall ever getting flamed- and hell, I wasn't all that constructive. I goofed around in the photo caption threads, etc, but also in the occasional +1/postwhore thread, because it was fun now and then. But I didn't do it to up my count to gain respect- just for the hell of it because it was there, basically.

It seems that this is all besides the point, though- the major problem being discussed is people being treated badly when they were new. Maybe instead of banning a type of thread because of the psychological reasons it may have ended up degrading the forum over the years, we could try saying "Hey guys, don't be dicks, huh?"

Of course, this sort of thing will only be an issue a long time from now. Before one can insult a newcomer, there have to be people that aren't newcomers. We'll all be n00bs at OT for a while.

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Well, apparently mob mentality and post-whoring in general in UnMod were the reasons things spilled over into GenDisc by this logic, right? But I don't think that's the issue at all. I think we're putting a magnifying glass over the worse aspects of UnMod and looking over the good ones entirely. As far as I know, there wasn't any huge drama between UnMod and the other forums right before UnMod's deletion, right? So, why the sudden decision? No warning, and not even any decent explanations until recently. It's just not fair to the UnMod community.

Pixietricks, I read your original post in its entirety three times. And it reeks of misunderstanding and false assumptions. Once again, it's obvious that those who were for the deletion of UnMod were not associated with or familiar with it at all.

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Pixie, if you could, I'm rather interested in a response to my question.

Will it be a moderation-worthy offense to say something with the explicit intent to offend or arouse a response in Off-Topic?

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As I just attempted to explain in my TLDR post :P...

We all want to keep it within reason. The "un-useful" thing isn't a problem in and of itself; it's that too much junk encourages people to post for the sole purpose of increasing their postcount. And that's what caused all those icky things I listed above, which resulted in UnMod's end.

Yes, I've read through it thoroughly, but I'm just saying that it's a bit strange since Unmod as of late has been more or less like what Gen Disc was supposed to be.

And if people wanted to "prune" the forum so to speak and make it more civil or have it serve some purpose, the place could've been moderated a bit more strict in terms of the flooding and other excessive cases of fad threads and overt trolling.

But I suppose that's oxymoronic since it IS unmoderated after all.

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It seems that this is all besides the point, though- the major problem being discussed is people being treated badly when they were new.

Actually, the main point I was trying to get at for the reason UnMod was deleted is abuse, especially when it spilled onto other forums. All the bullets before that in my essay post (2 pages ago) were just factors that led up to that abuse. Hope that clarifies things.

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Look, my point is that UnMod has always been UnMod, and nobody seemed opposed to what went on there until one day it was deleted. I think most of us are just pissed at the lack of respect with which we are being treated.

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Pixietricks, I call complete and total bullshit. You obviously never took part in, or even bothered to understand unmod if you think that's the way the place was.

I'm very aware that you never actually attempted to post in the unmods, because it would have been very obvious if you had. The most important thing that the unmods did have going for them was a tight community; and you would have stood out there on many, many levels and would have been called out for exactly that reason.

"Flame Wars" are the basis of Gendisc and PPR, these were very few in the unmods. The amount of threads that downgraded into a standard back and forth action between two sides was exceedingly slim. If you posted something that didn't fit, it was generally shoved as a side note into an otherwise slightly-useful discussion before that discussion degraded into something about pancakes and smiling mexicans.

"Popularity Contests" were a joke. That was the entire point of them, they were simply a joke. Not everyone who had a high post count or an early join date was respected. I had 7000 posts and a 2003 join date and was still a prime example of that. Why? Because i contributed nothing to the actual society of unmod. People like Coop and Mahaboo did worthwhile stuff; Arashi and Atomic Dog made themselves obvious. Even posters with lower numbers like NNY or Red Omen made themselves known through wit and education. Post counts had nothing to do with it; but higher posts obviously meant higher visibility; as they contributed more.

"Mob Mentality" is not the way to describe a community; and like everything else in your post is simply insulting.

I don't care if you are sleeping with zircon or whatever the hell else is going on behind the scenes at OCR. It never concerned me, while other unmodders apparently had some say in it; i try to stay out of all the bullshit. But when an entire community forum is destroyed due to blatant misunderstandings and overgeneralizations; someone, somewhere, needs to actually get an idea of what the hell was truly going on before the lies eventually become a forgotten "truth".

Not all mods are evil, not everyone in the unmods were either. Some of us just try our best to be nothing but regular people who enjoyed being in the company of other like-minded people. We had our own ways of "getting along", and i'm sorry that it isn't anywhere near as white and black as everyone wishes or thinks it was.

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Not sure if this is going to be read after Syl's post, but...

Join dates may have been the actual mark of a more experienced UnModder, but I am absolutely certain that many new people still used postcount to try to "make up" for it. I've talked to people who admited it behind the scenes, because they wanted to feel more welcome.

And regardless, just seeing tons of fad threads contributes to the "mob mentality," because it encourages more to pop up. ;)

But how is that the fault of anyone in UnMod? If you look around the Web, the notion of having a bigger post count to fit in is not an UnMod or OCR trait. It's everywhere. Every site forum at some point has had someone make a sarcastic remark regarding a person's post count, and how it wasn't big enough to make that poster be taken seriously. It's been going on since before OCR was ever started, and it'll continue long after OCR vanishes. UnMod posters are not at fault for that mind set, because even if a newbie took that remark completely seriously, there were scores of posts elsewhere on OCR and in UnMod that stated the exact opposite. I don't see how the inability to take a joke, is something that could be used in what you described.

Regarding the mob mentality you mentioned, I don't think you really understood what was going on when those fad threads were created...

Fad threads had nothing to do with fitting in, nor did they come about from running out of thread ideas. When fad threads were made, they were made in an attempt to be funny. Some succeeded, some didn't. After a while, they were almost expected to show up, and both regulars and newbies alike made them over time. If you made one, you weren't part of the group, nor were you desperate to find a thread idea. All you were, was someone who made a fad thread in an attempt to get/give a quick laugh.

In fact, more often than not, people were trying to keep posters from making fad threads. There were quite a few posts within the fad threads that stated they'd grown tiresome, and that people should stop making them. Some said this politely, some not so polite. But basically, to a decent number of people, they'd run their course quite some time ago. But in the end, they were a source of short lived amusement, and little more.

This isn't intended as any kind of insult Pixie, but I honestly believe that you have a good number of misconceptions about what went on in UnMod, and why it went on.

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