OCR04754 - *YES* Chrono Cross & Chrono Trigger "Lost Orphan"

[Emunator]

Primary Artist: AzureKevin

Like most RPG fans who played games from the 90s, I absolutely adore the Chrono series.

Last year I decided to experience Chrono Cross again via the new remaster.  During my playthrough, a short 6/8 piano idea for the song, “Burning Orphanage” popped into my head, and after playing around with it, I decided to try building it up into a full song.

It eventually evolved into this, what I think would be classed as a kind of haunting prog rock song with piano being the main driver, but also accompanied by the usual fair of rock drums, bass, synth leads, organs, both layered and lead electric guitar parts, strings, and mellotron choir.  Some parts of the song are perhaps faintly influenced by bands like King Crimson, some of Steven Wilson's solo music, as well as stuff by The Black Mages.

Once most of the first half was fleshed out (which was originally just going to be the whole arrangement), I realized one night that I could smoothly transition into the song “Silent Light” from Chrono Trigger, so I incorporated that as a slower second half.  Eventually I figured out a way to transition it back to Burning Orphanage with a mellower tone to close out the song.

The progression of the arrangement is recounting Kid’s trauma of fighting and surviving Lynx’s attack on the orphanage (first half with "Burning Orphanage"), but then wandering alone after her escape (second half with "Silent Light") and eventually finding peace (back to a slower "Burning Orphanage"), but not necessarily closure.

Both songs, I noticed, were very underepresented arrangement-wise, as I don't believe I've ever heard an arrangement of "Burning Orphanage", so I tried my best to create an interesting one!

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Games & Sources:

An arrangement of two songs:

"Burning Orphanage" from Chrono Cross, by Yasunori Mitsuda:

and "Silent Light" from Chrono Trigger, by Nobuo Uematsu:

[prophetik music]

agree that both are underrepresented.

piano-driven to start. drums come in at 0:11. the kick is pitched relatively high and has little beater tone initially, so it's a bit hard to hear. there's some organ and pads that eventually come in, and we get a big old-school proggy drama progression at 0:59. 1:16 picks back up as if nothing happened and it progresses through the B section of the theme. we get some guitar at 1:39 as a lead, and there's some more upbeat drum work as it picks up at 2:02. the balance here is a little off and the rhythm guitar both sounds not particularly great (highly EQ'd, sounds very synthy) and it's very loud and covering up the more interesting organ work behind it. there's a ritard going into the hold at 2:49, and it tones down for the A theme again on piano.

3:22 is where silent light starts. it fits surprisingly well with the same instrumentation and style. there's some very aggressive panning here that's a little confusing in an auditory sense. the lead guitar is also really loud. this whole section at 4:06 through like 4:25 sounds very loud.

the material from the start of the track comes back at 4:34, albeit much slower. this goes through the progression and is done with a very chrono cross-y broken chord to finish.

i think this one is pretty close! like really close, this was a tough one for me. there's some notable missteps that i feel really hurt the track. the balance (especially in the guitar) is rough. not only does the guitar not sound great, it's very loud in several spots. i'd recommend turning it down a lot and then spending time volumizing individual parts rather than sticking with one volume for the whole track. similarly, i found the piano throughout to be very mechanical - it's doing the same thing at essentially the same velocity for a lot of the track. you've got a nice shape overall to this, so having the piano be more nuanced in how it's playing and what it's playing would really elevate everything. lastly, the very hard panning at 3:22 was too much for me on headphones.

i'd love to hear this one with live guitar, some more nuance in the keys, and some more attention to the mixing of the different elements.

 

 

NO

[MindWanderer]

Really clever idea. I hated this part of Chrono Cross, so I don't even remember this music despite having played through multiple times, but this is a neat approach to it.

The soundscape is pretty cluttered, as proph said. There's some notable pumping with the kicks, and there's a distinct garage band-esque muddiness. Even when it's just bass+piano+drums, everything sounds mushy. I almost didn't notice there was a bass at all. The panning at 3:22 didn't bother me, but listen to what happens with the piano in that section: when the synth lead or electric guitar play, the piano ducks way down to make room for them. That synth lead in particular is loud, piercing, and shoves everything else into the background hard. So does the right-hand piano, to a lesser extent.

I'm borderline on this one, too. The arrangement is original and entertaining. But the production, for me, falls just a little short. Humanizing and rebalancing all the instruments will do wonders for making this sound clean, and help the listener enjoy the part-writing that much more.

NO (borderline, resubmit)

[Chimpazilla]

I agree that the piano is mechanical; the timings and velocities are all the same and grid-locked, but I like the piano tone.  The fake guitar is used well enough.  I don't find the production to be dealbreaker though, the mixing is fine and mastering is reasonable.  I don't hear any kick pumping, although the kick itself is very sharp which perhaps is causing that effect.  I hear plenty of low end and SPAN shows me the frequencies are well distributed so I'm surprised to see any comments about missing bass.

The arrangement is super creative and I love the 6/8 proggy approach!  Nice filtered intro.  The mix is full of varied instruments, textures, vibes, tempo changes, and unique writing.

If this does not pass, I suggest working with the piano velocities to make the piano more natural sounding, especially in the sections where it is most exposed.  If you could get live guitar that would be amazing, but not necessary for my vote.

YES

[Liontamer]

I remember listening to this on my phone a few weeks ago and thinking the initial sequencing felt stiff. To me, it's lacks humanization that undermines the energy of the writing, but it's serviceable. The creativity of the arrangement side tends to make up for this for me, though I can absolutely understand others feeling otherwise, and it's a borderline case for me.

I liked the bass writing; it's oddly mixed in that I hear the notes, but it's not as audible as it feels like it should be, so you don't get the full effect of the cool composition there. Nice sudden rhythmic shift at 1:59 as a subtle transition into the chorus at 2:02, that was smart stuff. At 2:14 when the snare rhythm shifted, it exposed the relative emptiness of that drum sample more, but it wasn't a huge deal; the textures are cohesive enough. Sampled guitar from 3:43-3:54 is weird in that it rings out so loudly yet it's there so fleetingly (the part comes back at 4:19); didn't make sense to mix it like that.

In any case, while the sample realism was the biggest drawback to me, Kevin's arrangement approach was cool, and I thought the combination of themes was effective. I would love an improved version if possible, but I'm willing to let it ride, and appreciate the creative arrangement approach first and foremost.

YES (borderline)

[Hemophiliac]

I'm surprised that Silent Light has not been represented on OCR yet. I really like the source and it's so cool to see it represented here.

Adapting both sources to this style works so well, and there's a great build of energy from beginning to end. Highlights for me were the contrast between energy like at 2:02 and 2:53. The laid back groove in 6/8 in the second half is awesome with Silent Light.

I agree with Chimpazilla that the piano would benefit from more exaggerated humanization, especially when there is less going on around it. The bass is less present and quieter then the other parts in the mix and could use a boost. I feel like i'm picking up some pumping from a compressor in the beginning with the piano on the downbeats from 0:12-0:57 and later 2:53-3:22.  My guess is there's a side-chained compressor reducing the piano.  I don't notice the compressor pump when a lot of other parts are playing which says that the amount of pump is not much.  It's only when things are exposed that it stands out.

This one is really close for me, it's a case where smaller minor issues added up to more. I'd like to see this back with some changes if possible.

NO (please resubmit!)

 

[Emunator]

Pretty much falling in line with Larry and Kris here - if this were a weaker, less ambitious arrangement, the issues with mechanical piano programming or the mushy, over-crowded mixing would absolutely sink this. I also felt like the snare tone was too in-your-face for the way it was written, and again highlights the lack of realism. However, as it stands, the arrangement is really good. I also was impressed with how good the programmed guitar turned out - all things considered, that was another area that easily could have been a dealbreaker but it was pretty convincing.

I absolutely hear areas this could be improved, but when I weigh them against the parts of this that you got right, I fall on the positive side here.

YES

[XPRTNovice]

I gotta say, I wasn't really convinced about this one until things got moving around 2:06. We've got a lot of staleness in the mix, the kick drum is flat, without dimension, and the overall performances of everything except the guitar and organ are very programmed and mechanical. 

 

The piano sound at 3:01 is overcompressed to my ear, making it sound boxy and even occasionally getting small breathing/pumping effects in there, which kind of ruins the soundscape there. Then, having the piano in the background of the organ, still overcompressed, is throwing me out of the next section.

 

The guitar performances lack a lot of expression, mostly have no vibrato, and the sustain on each note dies long before it should. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I really do feel like this arrangement is amazing. It's a beautiful reinterpretation of these sources, the time changes are fun, and the material itself never gets boring. But we've got some mix issues, some mechanization, and some flat samples and performances that keep this below the bar for me. I disagree with other judges that a good arrangement makes up for a lack of detail in the mixing - this track has potential to me, but it's not there yet. 

 

NO (please resubmit!)

[Gario]

It's funny, I'm probably more familiar with Burning Orphans than with any other track in the Chrono Chross OST due to having it be on some playlists of mine long before I knew it was in Chrono Cross or have played the game; it doesn't even register that others don't have that specific song ingrained in their memory like mine. Story-time aside, they're good sources, and some nice blending of the two in the middle of the arrangement, to boot. Overall I've gotta echo the praises on the arrangement that the others have given; it's well fleshed out and the prog-rock style form keeps it interesting to the end. The instruments are humanized well enough overall, and the instruments that sound stiff (specifically that plodding piano) sound stylistically so with all the processing that went into it so it never bothered me. It's a good example of advice that I give others when working with samples - if it's gonna sound unrealistic you're better to lean all in and make it sound intentional rather than accidental.

The production is decent, but not perfect. The mixing is unbalanced in places, specifically being an issue at 2:02 - 2:52 where the lead organ gets drown behind the other instruments rather than popping out above the rest. You can still hear it but it sounds more like a texture than something of a focus for folk to grab onto, like it should as the lead.

The issues of the arrangement being 'mechanical' that others have pointed out don't resonate with me, though; the guitars, drums, and bass sound fine to my ear, and the items that sound mechanical have plenty of intentionality and charm to them to where it doesn't register as an issue to me. The production isn't perfect and the mixing could use some sprucing up, but otherwise I think this is a solid front page contender, and in my opinion not even a close call. Nice work!

YES

[Flexstyle]

I can see why this is a split vote. Mixing issues are a bit rough for me (lotta stuff crowded into the midrange and not a lot of definition in the low or high end), and those drums...man, this would be elevated so much with a real drummer, or at least more nuanced sequencing on this one. That's kinda a big ask, though, I know. This is a good arrangement, though, and a lot of imagination is shown here.

Here's the thing -- when it comes to could-go-both-ways tracks like this for me, my big X-factor is this: "Did you make it interesting, at least?" The answer here is yes. This is an ambitious arrangement that says a lot over the course of five minutes, and while there are clear mix and sequencing issues, the overall package is one that I think clears the bar -- everything in here is here for a reason, the point of the arrangement comes across despite the midrange mud, and the guitar performances are strong as well. 

 

YES

[Rexy]

Okay, this arrangement is fire! You brought in one theatrical primary source and packed it full of prog tropes, which makes me a happy casual listener. The adaptation to 6/8 to match "Silent Night" is excellent, as was the high-passed intro, the building/breaking of textures throughout, the drum writing and fills (shoutout to the syncopation in the fill at 2:00!), and the overall attention to detail with tempo shaping. The slow parts resonated with a somber mood and reflected the twist the source got, and the faster parts worked because they showcased your texture and writing choices. My prog bias may be speaking here, but it hit all the right notes for me and has so much individuality packed in.

But then I had to think about where I stood on the production values. This is one of those tracks where the EQ shaping has a firm spread, yet the bulk of the instrumentation is dominating the midrange, though clarity is still present despite that packed section of the stage. The sample choices, while great, also put me in a sequencing dilemma, though.

Yes, the piano and organ are gridlocked - but the velocities on the former are still human, and the latter doubles as either a textural pad or melody, depending on the situation. While interestingly written, the drums are not only gridlocked, but the fills are extremely mechanical-sounding - but the overall velocity shaping shifted well to befit the changing moods. The guitar sample has had most of its articulations based on note placement and volume shaping, which does leave many end-phrase sustained notes exposed and without expression, not even any vibrato - and that's something I'd have more beef if used more predominantly than it did. It's one of those tracks that would get a giant lift with some live performers, but does it need them to clear the bar? My answer to that is not necessarily.

The arrangement shone through despite the production flaws, so I'm all for seeing this on the site as it is. But Kevin, the best advice I can give you is to continue to hone those production skills. You may find a new way to overcome any current obstacles. :-)

YES

[Liontamer]

I went ahead and sent Kevin the feedback today in case he wanted to attempt some revisions, and he's going to go for it. His comments:

Quote

 

Hey Liontamer!

I'm going to look into making some revisions to this song, especially with all the amazing feedback from the judges!  I definitely agree with the sentiment that many artists would prefer to receive the feedback ahead of time, and I personally can't help but to repeatedly come back to and modify songs that I previously deemed "finished".  They can never be truly finished, especially since the mixing / production aspect is something I'm always unsure about / striving to improve.

One thing I did find... funny/interesting?  Most of the judges thought I used a midi/sampled guitar, but I actually did play all the parts with an actual electric guitar and mic'd amp.  I do think my timing is good, but otherwise I'm just an okay lead guitar player, as it's something I picked up more recently and I usually prefer to stick to rhythm guitar.  So I'm not totally sure how to approach that; perhaps I should try playing the leads with more vibrato?

Anyway, thanks to all the judges for the very valuable feedback, and I'm going to try to implement as many improvements as I can.

Once it's done, should I just post it here or resubmit it through the normal submission method?

Thanks!

 

EDIT (11/3): New version was provided.

On 10/18/2024 at 7:33 PM, AzureKevin said:

Hello all,

I'm ready to resubmit "Lost Orphan"!

I did my best to incorporate as many suggestions from the judges as I could:  I adjusted the volume issues with the lead guitar and lead organ parts, and improved the way the mix is handled to reduce the muddiness with the background instruments so that the lead instruments stand out better.  I also went ahead and re-recorded most of the guitar parts, and adjusted their tone.

I changed the bass tone by removing a filter I had on the track; it was kind of muting the tone of the bass.

I changed most of the drum samples so that they fit a bit better in the song, and the kick should come through better in the mix.  I also humanized all of the drum and piano parts, and manually added delay to some of the lead piano notes.

Lastly, I removed a compressor that I put on the master track, and added a mastering VST.

Hopefully it's a decently noticeable improvement from my previous version.  Thanks again for all of your advice; it's so refreshing to actually receive actionable feedback!

The most noticeable difference to me was the soundscape being sharpened up, so there's a lot less latent mud in the picture. This is ready to go.