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you know what, video games really aren't that fun


Faduger
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Faduger: Heh, I got to play with Skypal too a little over a year ago. It was my second time playing people from the competitive community, and I thought after getting thrashed my first time I might have a chance at being able to compete because I had practiced all the advanced techs and stuff. Boy was I wrong, but that was a lot of fun.

Rainman DX: If you think a fighter's depth is determined by how many moves there are in the movelist, you have a whole lot to learn. =P

I'm sorry but from your post I can tell you know nothing of Smash. There is way too much to explain, but if you're interested you should see if there are any tournaments in your area you can attend to play a pro.

But just for now, here's an example of how depth goes much farther than simply being able to execute a single move. Anyone can perform Fox's shine. Just press down + B. But can you use it like this?

An old Fox combo video. Shows the basics of the advanced ways to use the shine. Shinespiking, waveshining, etc.

Oh, and go to these places to look for Smash events if you want to find one:

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=89

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Rainman DX: If you think a fighter's depth is determined by how many moves there are in the movelist, you have a whole lot to learn. =P

You gonna give me a counter-example? Or do I just have to take your word for it? And you can't use SSB:M - it's kinda like using a word in its own definition.

I'm sorry but from your post I can tell you know nothing of Smash.

Right, okay. Do I even have an obligation to reply to this?

Anyone can perform Fox's shine. Just press down + B. But can you use it like this?

... yes.

Once again, you cite examples that are demonstrations of greater superior skill than many can claim. But that is not the same thing as character depth. Nearly all of the kills in the first two minutes of the first video are accomplished using Fox's shine. This is not an example of depth, but rather quite the contrary: he was spamming that move. A more creative approach with an equal dose of skill would, for myself, satisfy the conditions for character depth. In Soul Calibur there are virtually innumerable kill moves for characters with three-or-so stances, not just a single one.

In my opinion:

Ultimate shallow character with great skill: Sheik

Better example of deep character with moderate potential: Mario; Ness

Best SSB:M example of deep character/lots of possibilities: Samus

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I love Smash Bros. But I'll be the first to tell you that the 'best' players around the world are usually just kids who spam Fox's shine, Marth's forward smash, or Sheik in general.

It's like picking up Soul Calibur 3 and saying 'I'm the best in the world because I'm playing as Night Terror and I know how to breath fire with him and nobody can block that.'

That's not depth.

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...lol

personly I love SC2 for the GC cause i love link

but i definently enjoy playing SSBM more

i murder ppl when i use fox and i dont use his shine unless im reflecting and attack

marth is my best char and i never use his smash attacks

and my 2nd best char is Zelda and i dont use sheik

a noob is the only one that would spam attacks

the real skill is in keeping an opponent off the ground and not leting him recover without using the same attack over and over...

and this whole thread reminds me of decline of video gaming lol

http://www.ugoplayer.com/animation/declineofvideogaming.html

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Smash is an interesting aspect of gaming. It most definitely has its simplistic aspects that make it fun and very accessible to anyone who wants to try, but when you get to the real meat of it, it's quite the hardcore game, or so many will argue. I personally think of myself as a topnotch smash player and I'm sure that it makes no bearing on what I'm about to say. Yes, you do have the players that spam shine all over the place while using only one or two moves in tandem to get all of their kills. The problem is that it works. An even bigger problem is that it isn't foolproof. I personally play Samus, but I can hold my own with any character. I just refuse the regulars like Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth. The point of what I'm trying to say is that while I do try to mix things up with different move combinations, you do have to rely on key moves in order to keep your opponent off of their game. When you get good enough, it stops mattering how good you are compared to your opponent (considering you're on somewhat equal footing), it becomes more of a game who can keep the other off of their balance. As Samus, I find keeping the charge shot at the ready will always throw them a little. I do use it a lot, and yea, maybe it's spamming, but you have to keep them off of their heels somehow. It's just how games are nowadays.

I honestly don't know why I typed all of that...but it's gonna stay, it'd be a waste to delete. Sorry.

Anyhow, about the depth being determined by the number of moves in a movelist: Yes, having a long movelist gives you something to learn, but also having other aspects to the game give you a lot to learn. You said not to use smash in it's own definition, but it's too hard not to use. You have different weights of characters affecting when they can down-cancel, you have kill priority of certain moves so you know which ones to pull if you want to get your hit in first so you don't die, or how fast certain characters fall regardless of weight so you can chain grab them if you want to be an ass. Seriously now, you can also apply this to something like the Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen series. Very simplistic, much like smash in its movelists and special setup, but then again, there's so much to know, like when there's going to be delay in an attack combo, or when your sidestep will be fast enough, or when you think they're going to add a little delay into their combo to lure you into a sidestep so they can pound you then. Seriously, you can't take depth at something like movelists, because that's only what you see at the beginning before you can even comprehend the game itself.

That was waaay too lengthy for me, I'll do my best to restrain myself. Hehe. ^.^;

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I'm just glad to hear everyone loves smash brothers...i believe its only truly a great experience if you play others as good as you. only then will you feel the real heat of a battle.

Which now brings up how they will make the next. What kind of techniques will be enhanced. Will Kong grab to people at the same time? Will throw his shine? Id like to think so, i wonder how hard it would be to develop it. I'm not sure why i went off on that but damn i like thinking about it.

How about Crono Cross, wasn't that a disappointment to anyone? I had large expectations. I Liked alot of it, but don't you think it could have been better.

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Rainman: It's not as simple as just spamming down + B. The point I was trying to make is that there is so much more depth in fighting games than just the single moves. The shine is a great example, not just because of shine spiking. The shine can be cancelled with a jump immediately, and that jump can be cancelled before leaving the ground with an airdodge directed at an angle into the ground, making you slide. So put all that together, and you in effect you just shined your opponent, then almost at the exact same time they are sent back, you're sliding along with them, able to do any move out of the slide immediately. This is kind of a jump into the advanced stuff because it involves a wavedash, and I havn't explained wavedashing and its uses without the shine yet. But anyway, this opens up a crapload of options, because you can now follow up the shine with any attack you want (assuming you're playing a character who doesn't fall from the shine or slide to far) before they even recover from hitstun. So if you wanted, you could just do another shine, and wavedash from that. This is an example of how much depth this move can add to the game with more than simply being able to press down + B.

I guess I'll explain some more stuff with Fox and his shine. Now you may be able to perform a "down air." Again, like the shine, it's simple. Just hit down + A while in the air. But I'll explain a way to use the down air very effectively with the shine that goes way beyond simply executing the two moves in any old situation. To use the down air more effectively, there are a few things you can do. First, short hop. Press jump really fast (for Fox, the button has to be pressed for no more than 3 frames) and instead of jumping high he'll jump really low. This alone adds a lot of options for aerial attacks. Another thing you can do is fast fall. You probably know that once you reach the peak of a jump, you can press down for your character to fall faster to the ground. Combine this with a short hop, and you've got a really fast jump. The third thing you can do with these others is L cancel. If you're doing an aerial A attack and press L within 6 frames of hitting the ground, half of your entire ending lag is canceled. The L cancel itself opens up a very important option for the shine. With L canceling, you can not only combo every landed down air into a shine, which can open up a crapload of combos as I've shown, but it's too fast to shield grab. Shield grabbing is when you shield an attack, and grab right after the attack hits and your shield stun ends. Normally an attack's lag lasts longer than shield stun, so if you shield an attack and your opponent is within grab range, it's a guaranteed grab. But you can L cancel a down air (or any of Fox's aerials for that matter) into a shine faster than they can shield grab, if they try to shield grab the down air. But what if they shield both? This is where it gets a little tricky. Fox can do some really fast stuff directly out of his shine. One thing you can do is come out of the shine immediately with a grab: shine, jump cancel the shine, then cancel the jump before leaving ground with a GRAB. Yep, you can cancel the jump while in the crouch animation with a grab too. This is very very useful for running grabs, because it allows you to perform a standing grab while running, instead of a regular dash grab in which for most character's cases, they lunge out retardedly with a whole bunch of lag compared to the standing grab. But that's besides the point. Anyways, that's one thing you can do. Another thing you can do is shine the shield, jump cancel, cancel jump with shine before leaving the ground, repeat. This is really really fast. Theoretically, you could be doing shines 4 frames apart if you canceled everything as soon as possible. It doesn't have to be that fast though. But if you were perfect, you could just do this until their shield breaks. But it's very very difficult, and nobody can do it that long. The guy who can do it best can only get up to about 10 doubleshines. Something a little easier that a lot of Falcos like to do is cancel the shine with a shuffle'd (what I explained earlier - short hop, fast fall and L cancel an aerial attack) down air, canceling straight into another shine. Doing this over and over again can wear their shields down too, and just like with Fox, you can also switch it up by canceling a shine into a jump canceled grab as well. Eh, there's a lot more to explain and you probably can't really understand everything without actually learning it for yourself. But one thing's that for sure is that just because you can do all the moves the instruction manual tells you to do (which is freaking easy, really) doesn't mean you have mastered the entire game's technical aspect. Not even close.

There is a whole bunch more that I'd like to explain about things like edgegames (which are unique to Smash - yes, you can get ring outs in SC2, but edgegames in that game are nothing compared to how complicated edgegames are in Smash. In SC2, you push your opponent off the edge and they die. Hoo hoo! Ok, there is a little depth to it - it's about character placement, getting your opponent into a vulnerable situation to fall off, and you can do things like parry an attack while standing at the ledge so your opponent goes behind and off.) In Smash there are a whole bunch of aspects to edgegames like edgehogging (not just to give them no option if they can only reach the edge, but to eliminate that possibility if they have the option of going to the edge or the stage), falling from the edge straight into a second jump (which opens up a whole bunch of new options), using the invincibility frames from grabbing the edge (ties in with the last thing - you can fall from the edge into a second jump to grab the edge again to get invincibility frames to abuse) and a whole lot more. There is too much to explain, you'd have to find out for yourself. I strongly recommend you try to find a tournament in your area to play a pro to see what it's all about. It's kind of ridiculous to act like you know enough about Smash to compare it's depth to other games when you havn't even played people in the competitive community. You're just going by what you've found out about the game.

Edit: WHOA, heh. didn't realize it turned into a wall of text. I do that sometimes when I have nothing to do. Sorry.

Edit 2: For demonstrating how moves can add much more depth to the game than simply being able to execute each single move, a simpler way of putting it is this: Combos are everything. You may understand the basic principles behind the moves they teach you in the instructional video. But that's got nothing to do with combos. You may be able to perform all of Mario's attacks one by one, but can you use them in such beautiful synergy like this? http://files.filefront.com/Mariotalityc2/;5312673;;/fileinfo.html

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Yeah, they're fun. I bought Donkey Kong Jungle Beat yesterday (new, for 16 bucks, Bongos and all) and it's fun as hell. I've never played anything like it. It's really unique, just like the Wii controller. I'm serious, I haven't felt that good about buying a game in a long time. It's off topic, but I had to get that off my chest.

I can't believe this game wasn't popular. It's a shame.

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Yeah, they're fun. I bought Donkey Kong Jungle Beat yesterday (new, for 16 bucks, Bongos and all) and it's fun as hell. I've never played anything like it. It's really unique, just like the Wii controller. I'm serious, I haven't felt that good about buying a game in a long time. It's off topic, but I had to get that off my chest.

I can't believe this game wasn't popular. It's a shame.

I agree, I got that back when it came out and loved it. If they make a sequel, I'd be all over it. I think a lot of people probably thought it was too "weird" a concept (platformer controlled with bongos) and shied away from it, which is too bad for them IMO.

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You know, I'm certainly not finding any fun in the Wii version of Twlight Princess. Mostly because I already played it on the GC and you don't have to do all those wacky motions just to get things done... that and the Wii's verison is flipped, screwing me up completely.

I dunno, this just might be enough for me to trade my Wii and two games in for a 360.

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You gonna give me a counter-example? Or do I just have to take your word for it? And you can't use SSB:M - it's kinda like using a word in its own definition.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UEDC5GunTxQ

Guile owning shit on cvs. Guile has two specials, while everyone has around 4 or 5. Dude holds his ground just fine from what I see.

o-o-o-opinion breaker

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You know, I'm certainly not finding any fun in the Wii version of Twlight Princess. Mostly because I already played it on the GC and you don't have to do all those wacky motions just to get things done... that and the Wii's verison is flipped, screwing me up completely.

I dunno, this just might be enough for me to trade my Wii and two games in for a 360.

Twilight Princess, while a good game, is an awful example of a Wii game.

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=UEDC5GunTxQ

Guile owning shit on cvs. Guile has two specials, while everyone has around 4 or 5. Dude holds his ground just fine from what I see.

o-o-o-opinion breaker

Oh whoops, I forgot he said it has to be a non-SSBM example. I don't really see why; we are talking mainly about SSBM after all, so wouldn't it be fitting if I used an example from the game itself to prove my point? But whatever. The thing I said about combos can be applied to any fighting game. Every fighting game (that's played competitively at least) has lots of advanced techniques that aren't found in the command list. This video shows some crazy Yun combos that would completely surprise anyone who thought there was nothing more to learning Yun than just learning how to execute his individual moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HKg5u5hxQU

One thing it demonstrates is Kara-canceling. You can give a move extra range by canceling certain moves into it, where you cancel the move before the hitbox comes out. This is shown when he is in Genei-Jin, and he does the palm which normally sends Yun too far back to do another palm directly, but he does a strong punch (which the very first part of the animation is the character lunging forward) then before the actual punch happens, he cancels it into a palm.

And this is only the technical skill aspect we're talking about here. If you think a fighting game's depth is only as deep as its command lists, learn how to execute all the moves in any random competitively played fighter then play in a tournament. Why did you not even come close to doing alright? Because there's a lot more to the game then just executing moves. Even when strictly talking about the technical aspect of a fighting game, there is always much more to learn than the command list or instruction manual will tell you.

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I had a revalation, or a revolution...just a thought. I haven't really been up to date with games, but i have played a bunch of old ones and have experienced a not so good emotion. Alot of video games suck. Not just crappy publicized remakes of movies n such. The Series for an entire company is based on a plummer? I can definately understand how they can be appealing. I do believe the potential of game is much greater then what they have. All the final fantasy series gameplay is boring. Its just that, boring. Gameplay needs a boost because they are excelling on everything but. Mario games are so basic it can boggle the mind. They spend Way to much time on making superb grphics and sound. Wher is the complication of gameplay? Smash brothers has complicated physics in many ways to master it in competition. It could be so much better. So why, why do they insist on making games simple. The more you can do, the more you can master and have a great experience. To anyone how can reason, share my understanding of blan games, why are none so innovative?

Ok, I'm sure you've heard this reaction before, but please get some perspective.. All people on this planet (6Billion) is NOT the same as you .. They experience different emotions doing different things.. To Go up, as you do, and try to push down ALOT of people's believes and interests with your TIIINNY little voice is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard .. alot of people don't like videogames, alot of people love them .. so what you should do is maybe try to realise that you're not GOD, your opinions are not omnipotent. and NO final fantasy is not boring. it's satisfying for alot of people.. YOU might think it's boring . And the fact that the Plumber is a maincharacter of the whole culture is quite Cool imo..

you see, these things DIFFER from person to person, I dont go around trying to make people think as I do .. I accept the fact that i'm small.

"there are so many of us so you can't count"

/Thom Yorke 2006

biggest regards

Jonas Loman, videogame-lover and musician ..

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you want fun...play Yggdra Union on the GBA.

This game is so refreshing because i actually have to THINK to play it.

Yggdra Union is the only game to give me a game over screen in a long time. It's a game that beats you down not because of luck, but because of skill.

That's the beauty of the game. I loved Fire Emblem, but the luck factor was just too frustrating sometimes. In Yggdra, luck is rarely a factor.

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Yggdra Union is the only game to give me a game over screen in a long time. It's a game that beats you down not because of luck, but because of skill.

That's the beauty of the game. I loved Fire Emblem, but the luck factor was just too frustrating sometimes. In Yggdra, luck is rarely a factor.

The trick to Fire Emblem is to make luck a non-factor. If you know how to use your units correctly and move them properly, you can effectively eliminate luck as a damning factor, except in levelling up. Personally, that's a reason why I love Fire Emblem so much. You can either play it relying on luck or you can play cautiously and then improvise if something doesn't go quite your way.

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Ok, I'm sure you've heard this reaction before, but please get some perspective.. All people on this planet (6Billion) is NOT the same as you .. They experience different emotions doing different things.. To Go up, as you do, and try to push down ALOT of people's believes and interests with your TIIINNY little voice is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard .. alot of people don't like videogames, alot of people love them .. so what you should do is maybe try to realise that you're not GOD, your opinions are not omnipotent. and NO final fantasy is not boring. it's satisfying for alot of people.. YOU might think it's boring . And the fact that the Plumber is a maincharacter of the whole culture is quite Cool imo..

you see, these things DIFFER from person to person, I dont go around trying to make people think as I do .. I accept the fact that i'm small.

"there are so many of us so you can't count"

/Thom Yorke 2006

biggest regards

Jonas Loman, videogame-lover and musician ..

Yeah, everyone does have a differen't perspective. People also change the way they feel all the time. Assuming this basic logic is applied to what i posted, i would assume also the people replying would understand that i understand the basic logic.thus, not needing to explain what i'm explaining. I may have said it as a fact, but you can interpret it as an opinion because, thats what it is. For me alot of times games is a love-hate relationship and i'm expressing some hate in the post. Thanks for trying to make me understand though.

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I've sort of reached the point where console gaming for me isn't a huge draw anymore and I basically continue to play consoles out of habit. I got drawn into EVE by a friend and became hooked. Its got a learning curve that actually leans backwards and is just that deep. If you are serious about games just being too simple...give EVE a go I guess.

As for simple gameplay being a problem, what the hell? Mario is still a blast because its so simple. Drunken Mario speed runs are by far one of the most enjoyable things you can ever do. Lots of simple games are just sheer fun no matter what, and the difficulty of the gameplay itself can just make it...well...not fun.

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As for simple gameplay being a problem, what the hell? Mario is still a blast because its so simple. Drunken Mario speed runs are by far one of the most enjoyable things you can ever do. Lots of simple games are just sheer fun no matter what, and the difficulty of the gameplay itself can just make it...well...not fun.

That reminds me of F-Zero GX for the GCN. Great game for multiplayer, but when it came to getting full completion of the game itself to unlock everything...that became so very frustrating.

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Rainman: It's not as simple as just spamming down + B. The point I was trying to make is that there is so much more depth in fighting games than just the single moves. The shine is a great example, not just because of shine spiking. The shine can be cancelled with a jump immediately, and that jump can be cancelled before leaving the ground with an airdodge directed at an angle into the ground, making you slide. So put all that together, and you in effect you just shined your opponent, then almost at the exact same time they are sent back, you're sliding along with them, able to do any move out of the slide immediately. This is kind of a jump into the advanced stuff because it involves a wavedash, and I havn't explained wavedashing and its uses without the shine yet. But anyway, this opens up a crapload of options, because you can now follow up the shine with any attack you want (assuming you're playing a character who doesn't fall from the shine or slide to far) before they even recover from hitstun. So if you wanted, you could just do another shine, and wavedash from that. This is an example of how much depth this move can add to the game with more than simply being able to press down + B.

I guess I'll explain some more stuff with Fox and his shine. Now you may be able to perform a "down air." Again, like the shine, it's simple. Just hit down + A while in the air. But I'll explain a way to use the down air very effectively with the shine that goes way beyond simply executing the two moves in any old situation. To use the down air more effectively, there are a few things you can do. First, short hop. Press jump really fast (for Fox, the button has to be pressed for no more than 3 frames) and instead of jumping high he'll jump really low. This alone adds a lot of options for aerial attacks. Another thing you can do is fast fall. You probably know that once you reach the peak of a jump, you can press down for your character to fall faster to the ground. Combine this with a short hop, and you've got a really fast jump. The third thing you can do with these others is L cancel. If you're doing an aerial A attack and press L within 6 frames of hitting the ground, half of your entire ending lag is canceled. The L cancel itself opens up a very important option for the shine. With L canceling, you can not only combo every landed down air into a shine, which can open up a crapload of combos as I've shown, but it's too fast to shield grab. Shield grabbing is when you shield an attack, and grab right after the attack hits and your shield stun ends. Normally an attack's lag lasts longer than shield stun, so if you shield an attack and your opponent is within grab range, it's a guaranteed grab. But you can L cancel a down air (or any of Fox's aerials for that matter) into a shine faster than they can shield grab, if they try to shield grab the down air. But what if they shield both? This is where it gets a little tricky. Fox can do some really fast stuff directly out of his shine. One thing you can do is come out of the shine immediately with a grab: shine, jump cancel the shine, then cancel the jump before leaving ground with a GRAB. Yep, you can cancel the jump while in the crouch animation with a grab too. This is very very useful for running grabs, because it allows you to perform a standing grab while running, instead of a regular dash grab in which for most character's cases, they lunge out retardedly with a whole bunch of lag compared to the standing grab. But that's besides the point. Anyways, that's one thing you can do. Another thing you can do is shine the shield, jump cancel, cancel jump with shine before leaving the ground, repeat. This is really really fast. Theoretically, you could be doing shines 4 frames apart if you canceled everything as soon as possible. It doesn't have to be that fast though. But if you were perfect, you could just do this until their shield breaks. But it's very very difficult, and nobody can do it that long. The guy who can do it best can only get up to about 10 doubleshines. Something a little easier that a lot of Falcos like to do is cancel the shine with a shuffle'd (what I explained earlier - short hop, fast fall and L cancel an aerial attack) down air, canceling straight into another shine. Doing this over and over again can wear their shields down too, and just like with Fox, you can also switch it up by canceling a shine into a jump canceled grab as well. Eh, there's a lot more to explain and you probably can't really understand everything without actually learning it for yourself. But one thing's that for sure is that just because you can do all the moves the instruction manual tells you to do (which is freaking easy, really) doesn't mean you have mastered the entire game's technical aspect. Not even close.

There is a whole bunch more that I'd like to explain about things like edgegames (which are unique to Smash - yes, you can get ring outs in SC2, but edgegames in that game are nothing compared to how complicated edgegames are in Smash. In SC2, you push your opponent off the edge and they die. Hoo hoo! Ok, there is a little depth to it - it's about character placement, getting your opponent into a vulnerable situation to fall off, and you can do things like parry an attack while standing at the ledge so your opponent goes behind and off.) In Smash there are a whole bunch of aspects to edgegames like edgehogging (not just to give them no option if they can only reach the edge, but to eliminate that possibility if they have the option of going to the edge or the stage), falling from the edge straight into a second jump (which opens up a whole bunch of new options), using the invincibility frames from grabbing the edge (ties in with the last thing - you can fall from the edge into a second jump to grab the edge again to get invincibility frames to abuse) and a whole lot more. There is too much to explain, you'd have to find out for yourself. I strongly recommend you try to find a tournament in your area to play a pro to see what it's all about. It's kind of ridiculous to act like you know enough about Smash to compare it's depth to other games when you havn't even played people in the competitive community. You're just going by what you've found out about the game.

Edit: WHOA, heh. didn't realize it turned into a wall of text. I do that sometimes when I have nothing to do. Sorry.

Edit 2: For demonstrating how moves can add much more depth to the game than simply being able to execute each single move, a simpler way of putting it is this: Combos are everything. You may understand the basic principles behind the moves they teach you in the instructional video. But that's got nothing to do with combos. You may be able to perform all of Mario's attacks one by one, but can you use them in such beautiful synergy like this? http://files.filefront.com/Mariotalityc2/;5312673;;/fileinfo.html

Damn guy. sounds like we need to settle this in a game of chess? maybe you two can pwn eachother ther. I like your spunk, defending smash as you do.

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