realistic guitar?

[Jacian]

Hey all... I need some help. I drastically need some rhythm guitar, that chugga-chugga in my song. But either Slayer isn't for me or I can't find out how to use it well enough. I know you great remixers have synthed guitars and leads in FL... so how do you do it? Is there a particular VST you used? Or do I need a tutorial in how to make Slayer sound good? Thanks everyone... you rock

~jace

[Tensei]

I still have to hear a synth guitar that could be confused with a real one, so basically the answer is " No, you can't get a realistic electric guitar sound from a synth"

Usually the best solution for this is to PM someone who plays an axe and ask them if they can play the chugga-chugga for you; believe me when I say it will sound a million times better than anything you could hope to achieve with FL slayer.

Now if you really want to use synth guitars because you think they'll fit better, try to get a lot of free sound fonts and samples, and layer them together, apply judicious distortion, etc. It won't sound as good as the real thing, but it will definitely get the job done. I think one of the main requirements is having at least an amp simulation (Guitar Rig 2/3, Amplitube 2) to run the sampled guitars through so they won't sound like total shit. Try to listen to some of Protricity's (Krool Intentions, Neighburgers, Assembly-Line Apparitions) stuff to get a feel for how you can make shitty samples sound great, it's all about the sequencing.

[zircon]

Nothing free will get the job done. $100-150 will get you Lyrical Distortion vol 1 or 2, which sounds great... $300 or so will get you Prominy LPC which definitely sounds very real.

[Zephyr]

Ya, I'd say either go with a real guitar, or pay for something. Slayer is chop full of glitches and pretty much just sucks. It can be done using synths and stuff, but you need to be a guru to do it.

[Fishy]

Nothing free will get the job done. $100-150 will get you Lyrical Distortion vol 1 or 2, which sounds great... $300 or so will get you Prominy LPC which definitely sounds very real.

Or you can pay $50 and I'll play it...

[Nutritious]

Or you can pay $50 and I'll play it...

As long as it's sequenceable, I'll take it

[Kittie Rose]

The cheapest guitar(within reason) and multi-effects will still be much better than the vast majority of guitar synth solutions. Dream Theater's keyboardists have been known to get good guitar sounds, if they're low in the mix.

Honestly, if it's a simple riff, just tell me the chords, send me the drumbeat, and I'll record it. I'll happily improv lead over it too. But I'll charge if it's more than one song I'm no great so I wouldn't charge much. But getting a real guitar/guitarist is probably your best solution.

I'd recommend a Pacifica 112 and a Korg AX3G, Zoom G1, Yamaha Magicstomp, Digitech RP50, Line 6 Pocket POD, any of those. Most of the AWESOME OC Remixes are actually using a cheap multi effects. Terra in Black was done on an RP7... generally multi fx have at least "one" good setting, even the ones from the 90s.

[zircon]

Guys, in all seriousness, I don't think it's really sensible to recommend "real guitar" to someone that wants the best SAMPLED or synth solution. Guitar isn't impossible to recreate with samples, as I (and other people) have shown, repeatedly. It's not always convenient to find a guitarist, and playing ability is highly variable.

[Kittie Rose]

I offered to do it, for free. That's pretty convenient. It only takes 5 minutes if I just have to record a CHUG.

[zircon]

Yes, but if someone's working on a remix at 3AM and you're not up? Or they want to change a note in their recording while you're on vacation? Or you're not fast enough for a passage that they want to play? Or their connection is too slow to receive large WAV files? Or you don't have the webspace to *upload* large WAV files because their direct connection (or yours) isn't working properly? I really could go on and on.

[Kittie Rose]

Yes, but if someone's working on a remix at 3AM and you're not up? Or they want to change a note in their recording while you're on vacation? Or you're not fast enough for a passage that they want to play? Or their connection is too slow to receive large WAV files? Or you don't have the webspace to *upload* large WAV files because their direct connection (or yours) isn't working properly? I really could go on and on.

Going by your logic, several long distance musical projects that somehow managed to release full albums must have failed miserably.

This guy was just asking for some basic chugga chugga guitar. Chances are he won't really need to change it, and if he does, I'm around fairly often. A bit of patience will get you everywhere.

I'm sorry, but guitar synths do sound quite terrible, at least as guitars. They can do alright as, well, a cross between a guitar and a synth sound, that Megaman 2 "Chillout" remix is a good example(unless that was using a real guitar with a weird playing style), but for it to actually sound like a real guitar is just nonsense.

If you care about convenience, use a crappy MIDI guitar synth. If you care about actually having a good sound, find a guitarist, or a guitar.

And you don't need to upload large Wav files. A high quality OGG would do. Remember a lot of the artefects of lossy compression are only present/apparent when multiple instruments play at once.

[zircon]

http://www.prominy-ss.com/LPC/LPC_super_p_multi.mov

So this sounds "quite terrible"?? Or these?

http://www.soundtempest.net/nomuraclip.mp3

http://www.soundtempest.net/agclip2.mp3

?? Give me a break. There are GREAT guitar samples out there. It seems like you're taking this fact really personally, but get used to the fact that there's a time and a place to find real musicians for projects, and it's not always someone needs (or wants) all the time. Even in the world of high-end film and game composition, sampled instruments are almost always used, even when resources allow for live players. Sometimes it's just preferable to have exact control over your sound, and not have to wait awhile every time you want to revise a note. You can instantly see what would happen if you were to tranpose a riff up a line, or change something from major to minor.

Regardless of what YOU PERSONALLY believe, if this guy was asking for guitar samples and tips to get his own samples/synths to sound better, answer the question. If you don't have an answer, don't post. It's like if someone asked about how to do something in Reason, and rather than answer that, someone posted "Pro Tools can do that better, just get Pro Tools!!!" That's ignorant, and it's trolling.

Now, back on topic please?

[Kittie Rose]

Back On Topic please - I love how you get your final say and don't let anyone rebut it. That's not how argument works. If there is a logical hole in what you've just said, I should always have a right to point out it - to think otherwise is to put yourself in the realm of infallibility. This is directly related to the topic - disallowing any tangents whatsoever is completely unnatural to any form of discussion.

Those clips do not sound like guitars. They don't sound terrible, but in terms of a convincing guitar sound, they are indeed somewhat awful. The NOMURA one, do you not see what's wrong with it? It sounds more like a square wave synth with the mids turned up a bit run through an overdrive pedal. It lacks a booming low end, or any bite at the top end too.

Palm-muted, chugging guitar, is especially difficult to replicate because of what it does to the harmonics, etc. It's not about what I "Personally" believe. Cut that crap out. It annoys me when people force relativism in an argument. Synthesised guitar, except for ridiculously high quality synths that'd cost as much as a decent real guitar, do not cut it. Chances are, if this guy doesn't find Slayer anywhere near up to his task, he won't find one that is.

I'd rather tell the OP the truth instead of what he wants to hear. It is not as enjoyable to listen back to tracks I've done with synth guitar a long time ago as it is with even badly recorded real guitar. He was asking for a realistic guitar, and I'm suggesting that the only real way to achieve this is through a real guitar. There are a dozen reasons I could get into, sound theory wise, why a guitar sounds better. But just compare the two for yourself.

You really have no idea what you're taking about. Nobody would professionally use samples of a distorted guitar, or at least it's extremely uncommon. Industrial music, stuff like that uses it, but in a way that it's meant to sound that way, it's not the same as replacing a real guitar. *If* the OP is working on Industrial, then maybe it'd work out - but probably not. And no, that clip you posted me wasn't industrial - real industrial sounds a lot harsher than that, that was just a combination of electro and metal.

Pianos, flutes - they can be more easily emulated. Please stop talking like you're an expert here - it's obviously you either have no clue about actual sound work, or are disregarding it to defend your own decisions. I record a lot of lo-fi, sloppy crap but in many ways it still sounds better, because it sounds human and alive, even with some of the "clippy" samples I use(since my music is somewhat influenced by Industrial).

The realm where your attitude would apply would be in the mainstream Pop music circuits. Fake, cheesy instruments go down well there. And quite frankly, I'm tired of processed sounding pap. Using software based instruments doesn't necessarily have to sound fake and processed, of course, and it depends on context, but with the kind of attitude you have, it really sets a precedent for them to do so.

I was trying to be both realistic and helpful. I offered a higher quality solution, at least temporarily. It's unlikely he'll get the sound he's looking for from a VST - you had no problem with the people before me saying this, since they didn't challenge you.

[zircon]

Back On Topic please - I love how you get your final say and don't let anyone rebut it.

Well, I'm a moderator, so yes, I do get the final say. The reason I 'singled you out' is because no one else responded to me to argue about what I posted. My second post in this thread was addressed to "guys" - eg. everyone who had posted recommending a real guitarist rather than using samples. Had anyone else continued to quibble about it I would have given them the same warning which you've earned. So once again, you are strongly encouraged to stop, unless you have something constructive to add.

If you want to make a thread about "Live vs. Sampled Guitar" in this forum you are more than welcome to! So, I'm not going to address the majority of your points here because it would crap up THIS thread even further. If you really want to talk to me personally about it, I'm on irc.enterthegame.com #ocrwip, where - and this may come as a shock - I hang out with guitarists like Sixto, Fishy, Tensei San, and Geoffrey Taucer, three of whom I've collaborated with (repeatedly) and all of whom are awesome. I will address these though

Please stop talking like you're an expert here - it's obviously you either have no clue about actual sound work

I am an expert, actually, as I'm a professional composer and sound designer that gets enough freelance work to have the equivalent of a full-time salary, even though I'm still working on a degree full-time. I've written and composed music (primarily using samples) that has won numerous awards, been placed in movies, broadcast on TV, and licensed all over the world. In fact, a remix I did using all samples (including sampled guitar) is going to be included in an upcoming Street Fighter game.

Nobody would professionally use samples of a distorted guitar, or at least it's extremely uncommon.

Tell that to Hans Zimmer.

[Kittie Rose]

Well, I'm a moderator, so yes, I do get the final say. The reason I 'singled you out' is because no one else responded to me to argue about what I posted.

Exactly. Nobody else challenged you.

My second post in this thread was addressed to "guys" - eg. everyone who had posted recommending a real guitarist rather than using samples.

There's nothing wrong with this. Just because it's not what the OP originally asked for does not mean they are not valid suggestions.

Again, I vehemently oppose such unintelligent, undynamic and generally ridiculous methods of moderation. It's not going to hurt anyone if people actually have relevant discussion. You're over-moderating, for the same of it.

So once again, you are strongly encouraged to stop, unless you have something constructive to add.

I am adding something constructive. Please demonstrate how it is not constructive. It might not be exactly what the OP asked for, but it is still relevant to the subject at hand.

If you want to make a thread about "Live vs. Sampled Guitar" in this forum you are more than welcome to!

But this discussion is relevant to the OP's request - you are forcing people to only recommend softsynth options when other solutions may suit him better. In another thread, it won't help him in the same way.

You're the most destructive element in this thread, by far. You can't see past your own ban hammer.

I'm on irc.enterthegame.com #ocrwip, where - and this may come as a shock - I hang out with guitarists like Sixto, Fishy, Tensei San, and Geoffrey Taucer, three of whom I've collaborated with (repeatedly) and all of whom are awesome.

Wow. If I hang out with black kids, does that make me black? No. You still obviously don't "get" guitar and why a real guitar sounds alive, or are disregarding it to defend your own laziness of using synth options in place of a real guitar(as opposed to using it as a synth guitar, which is different).

I am an expert, actually, as I'm a professional composer and sound designer that gets enough freelance work to have the equivalent of a full-time salary, even though I'm still working on a degree full-time. I've written and composed music (primarily using samples) that has won numerous awards, been placed in movies, broadcast on TV, and licensed all over the world. In fact, a remix I did using all samples (including sampled guitar) is going to be included in an upcoming Street Fighter game.

None of this has anything to do with actual guitar sound. I guess I forgot that SOME games as well as cheesy TV programmes sometimes use synth guitar, but it's a shame. It's still a mile away from the avenue of real guitar based music and you don't seem to understand why.

You can be an expert on the clarinet and have no idea of the tonal qualities of a saxophone. I said several times that samples of certain instruments do pass - but guitar does not. There are certain areas where it is more acceptable - like in Industrial music, and to an *extent* video games(though to be honest I'm very disappointed if there is such a track in SF4), but it's still nowhere near the same as a real guitar. This is one of the first things that I learned making music, and I'm not the first. I must clarify one thing that I slightly retract - nobody *professionally who knows anything about guitar, would use a guitar synth in place of a real guitar*, or at least very few would. There are almost definitely pop tracks that make use of it, but then again, I'm talking about the more lower end options here. With enough tech these days you can do almost anything- but you may as well get a guitar for that price. Some studio execs obviously don't understand this, and prefer to keep everything processed.

You obviously don't know a lot about guitar, or are a rare exception.

Tell that to Hans Zimmer.

As I've said before using it in an expiremental context such as in Industrial is not the same as using it as a replacement for a real electric guitar. That's what I'm getting at. I use a guitar synth on one of my tracks, but not to sound like a guitar. This is, again, the point I'm getting at. The fact that you've had commercial success is irrelevant, as commerical success generally is. Also, given that "processed" is all the rage these days, it would perhaps only further my point. I've had music played on the radio too - does that make me more of an expert than someone that hasn't? No. And more importantly, does it mean that I definitely didn't make some tonal fuck up that I really shouldn't have? Probably not. There are certainly elements in some of my tracks that would offend real practioners of the genre of that track. Since I'm a young musician, it's something I'm going to work on, rather than taking your stance of oh well it's easier this way.

Synth guitars still tend to sound dire in place of real rockin' guitars, and I stand by this. Real serious musicians in genres where guitar is in any way important would absolutely not tend to use guitar synths in place or real guitars, and for good reason. If you looked at music from a more tonal point of view rather than one of composition, you might understand.

And this line of discussion is still PERFECTLY relevant since it's about the best option for real guitar. Does anyone really agree with Zircon's ruling, and if you do, can you explain yourselves logically to prove you're not just sucking up to the mod(as most tend to do)? Nobody should use their mod badge to avoid dealing with criticism and being challenged. It's immature.

[Lunahorum]

knock it off

[Bahamut]

Staff opinion agrees with zircon here. Any more derailing of the thread will result in moderator action.

[Kittie Rose]

Staff opinion agrees with zircon here. Any more derailing of the thread will result in moderator action.

How about you back up your "Staff opinions"? I'm calling bullshit. This is anal overmoderating in the extreme. You're forcing people to give a specific answer, forcing your opinions on people. It's sickening. Even if you own this board, it's still wrong to do that but nobody can bring you down off your high and mighty podiums. If you had solid reasoning behind your actions, you would have provided it immediately. More than likely you'll come up with something in an a priori format and lock the thread so nobody can challenge your authority on that matter, since some of you seem incapable of dealing with criticism. Authoritarianism is not healthy.

[Bahamut]

How about you back up your "Staff opinions"? I'm calling bullshit. This is anal overmoderating in the extreme. You're forcing people to give a specific answer, forcing your opinions on people. It's sickening. Even if you own this board, it's still wrong to do that but nobody can bring you down off your high and mighty podiums. If you had solid reasoning behind your actions, you would have provided it immediately. More than likely you'll come up with something in an a priori format and lock the thread so nobody can challenge your authority on that matter, since some of you seem incapable of dealing with criticism. Authoritarianism is not healthy.

Actually, quite a bunch of musicians are getting a kick out of reading your posts right now. Calling Hans Zimmer industrial? Anyone who knows anything about the industrial genre would laugh at the outrageousness of this statement, amongst others (Hint: Front Line Assembly & Fear Factory makes music far from what Hans Zimmer does).

First off, all of this discussion IS offtopic. The person asked for realistic guitars, not real guitars - that is clear from the original post. Saying it isn't doesn't make it otherwise - for someone who throws around the word of logic, you sure apply fallacies of your own, assuming I wouldn't be able to rebut your argument just because you wish to be childish and refuse to acknowledge the extreme thread derailment. Personally, I'm for as little moderation as possible, but when someone shows a childish stubbornness to this degree, I move to act swiftly - you'll see action soon enough, after you get to read others clear disagreement with your stance.

I would post more, but I decided to let others do the speaking - it isn't worth wasting my time I could be using to study algebraic topology.

[Sixto]

Shhh, quit being dumb. Someone started this thread in search of tips on synth guitar. You're just trolling now.

AND, it is very possible to achieve great guitar sounds using samples. I don't like admitting that, but it's the truth.

[bustatunez]

anyway

http://www.getdistorted.com/ for around $20 (15 euros) you can get one of the best distorted powerchords libs out there as an instant download. they also have two distorted rhythm loop collections that are definitely worth checking out, and extremely affordable (3 euros).

also comes with some nice FX patches too, and is generally very playable and easy to mix; KT2 and Giga3 formats

[Smenelian]

anyway

http://www.getdistorted.com/ for around $20 (15 euros) you can get one of the best distorted powerchords libs out there as an instant download. they also have two distorted rhythm loop collections that are definitely worth checking out, and extremely affordable (3 euros).

also comes with some nice FX patches too, and is generally very playable and easy to mix; KT2 and Giga3 formats

I'm tempted to drop $20 for that. As much as I don't like pre-added distortion, I can live with it for that price.

[shorelinetrance]

not advocating piracy, but you can find most of the stuff these guys mention for free.

but i usally just do what every else does, get my buddy to record it for me :DDDDD

[Tensei]

not advocating piracy, but you can find most of the stuff these guys mention for free.

How is this not advocating piracy?

[shorelinetrance]

How is this not advocating piracy?

I'm just alerting him, not saying he should do it.