How many of you know music theory?

[Cree`]

In my quest to become a better mixer, I've thought that it would be appropriate for me to get myself acquainted with Music Theory, and the major and minor scales, and the key signatures.

I've played the trumpet for 3 years in the highschool band, but I've never been formally taught music theory.

My question is, which would be more worthwhile: learning the piano first, or music theory? Also, how many of you actually know Music Theory?

[zircon]

Music theory is really broad, and can encompass topics that would require up to doctorate-level education. So you might get a wide range of answers, potentially

I for one have taken one full year of music theory as part of my generalized "Music Industry" degree, along with one term of "Modern Arrangement Techniques" (which covers some topics that might fall under theory), as well as one full year of "Ear Training" which again has some crossover. I also have some mixed experience from about 8-9 years of piano lessons, though I really didn't learn much formal theory in that. Actually taking classes on the topic was tedious at first, and not everything stuck in my head, but being able to listen to a song and analyze its chord progression, knowing what notes to write in a scale so it sounds 'right'... very useful skills.

Learning the piano and learning music theory go hand-in-hand to a degree. You will have to learn the basics of scales and note names, at the very least, when learning how to play the piano. I would try to do them both at the same time.

[Cree`]

Thank you very much . Your post was both very informative, and entertaining (for me anyways) to say the least. I'll see what I can do in that department, I found a website called Ricci Adam's Music Theory and it has alot of the basics of music theory, so I'll try that out for a few weeks, and hopefully I'll be able to get a semi-weighted midi keyboard and begin practicing piano, or something along those lines.

I would just like to say thanks for your help. Haha, it kinda surprised me that you replied because I sort of think of you as a music inspiration. I love your mixes, infact you, Scott Peeples, and Reuben Kee (R.I.P buddy) inspired me to actually pursue my dreams of making music.

Haha, sorry about my own personal monologue.

Much Thanks,

Cree

[dannthr]

Awesome, man, good luck with learning everything. Music is an amazing path to take, even if it's just one path amongst many you journey down, it's worth every step.

I agree with Zircon, if possible, learn both at the same time--additionally, guided instruction is incredibly valuable in the beginning. Even if you don't continue with lessons, they're a fantastic jump-start.

Just remember, also, that finding a good teacher is about compatibility and definitely not to let a bad teacher turn you off from a really fantastic journey.

[DrumUltimA]

the order in which you learn isn't as important--learning theory will help your piano skills, and vice versa. I would actually recommend doing both at the same time. there are a few websites out there that will help you build your basic theory and ear training skills, one that i've particularly liked is http://musictheory.net/ . There are lots of lessons and trainers on this site that can help you begin to build your fundamentals. If you find yourself not liking this site, there is also http://www.teoria.com , but i'm not as familiar with this site. Anyway, give it a go, see how it works!

[Moseph]

Whether or not knowledge of music theory will necessarily make you a better mixer is an open question, but it definitely will not hurt you. I think one of the greatest benefits will be that it will enhance your ability to communicate with other musicians because you'll know how the jargon relates to the music.

Like zircon, my theory knowledge comes mostly from study in college (two years of theory and ear training, and additional jazz theory studies). I don't think the basics should be all that difficult to pick up on your own, though. If you can find other people to hang out with who are accomplished musicians or are just interested in music, that would be a great thing, too, because it always helps to have support from others who share your interests.

Again echoing zircon, learning the piano will probably help with learning theory -- the piano keyboard gives you a concrete way to visualize scales and chords, for example. I'd played piano for years before I started studying theory in college, and I think it gave me a tremendous advantage over those who didn't have any piano experience. (Although be warned that if you do acquire piano skills, suddenly everyone will want you to play Happy Birthday for them. )

Another thing that helps improve general musicianship is (big surprise) listening to music, especially types of music that you're not familiar with or might not even like that much. In one of my theory classes, the teacher made us listen to about twenty hours of 20th-century classical music -- lots of weird, artsy, avant garde stuff. We all hated him for it at the time, but in retrospect it was one of the best things anyone could have done for us (or for me, at least). Looking back on all I learned in college, I think that class was the thing that most broadened my musical perspective.

[SnappleMan]

The best way to get into music theory is to first off, consider yourself a musician. Regardless of your skill level, you are a musician, looking at yourself as a ReMixer or arranger of music doesn't get you anywhere mentally because you are setting a cap on how far you expect yourself to go. Second, pick a style of music that you can relate to musically, in a more general sense. Techno doesn't count. A very good way to learn theory is to learn the history of Jazz. Jazz has everything you need to think in a classical and contemporary musical way. It incorporates elements like complex arrangements with rich harmonies and themes, and as it evolves into different styles, it goes through stages of minimalism, abstract music, virtuosity, expression and when you reach jazz fusion, you'll be able to understand how all the theory you're learning relates to music that's relevant to you.

Don't think of music theory as a mathematical explanation of music, though if you eventually go deep enough, you'll find yourself using all kinds of formulas to make sense of music on a physical level. Look at it as a vocabulary you need to know in order to properly communicate through a musical medium. And write music throughout the entire process. Start by writing a 1 minute song, before you start reading anything about theory. Then as you learn things, apply them to that song, and by the end, it SHOULD be a better piece of music.

In the end, just try to have as much fun as you can doing it, try to harness the excitement of learning something new, the payoff is tremendous. Good luck!

[The Pezman]

Man, I wish I had the time to take theory here in college. I took it in high school, and although the teacher was very good, he was only part time and I had not had a lot of prior musical experience. I definitely hope to revisit it someday, though.

[SnappleMan]

Man, I wish I had the time to take theory here in college. I took it in high school, and although the teacher was very good, he was only part time and I had not had a lot of prior musical experience. I definitely hope to revisit it someday, though.

www.google.com

www.wikipedia.org

www.internet.fgt

[Tensei]

First off, I do not mean to demean anyone, or discourage anyone from learning theory, I just want to show a bit of a different perspective, since you asked for everyone's opinion on this; Theory has never worked for me, ever. When I learned English, I always relied on my own instincts for what sounds right, and for the most part, I was always right.

Same works for me in music: When I have to figure out difficult chordal extensions, write an intricate progression, solo over a backing track, I ALWAYS rely on my ears first, and after that, if I'm up to it, I figure out what the hell I actually just did. To keep with Snappleman's dictionary analogy; I make words up, and sometimes, when I feel like it, I look them up in the dictionary to see if I was right.

I think the MOST important thing is (might only work for me this way though) to actually listen to music, a lot. Get used to the way the counterpoint, the progressions, the harmonies, the rhythms, melodies etc etc etc for that certain musical genre sound, and try to apply them yourself in your ReMix.

What I'm trying to make clear is that you shouldn't see learning musical theory as the be-all, end-all of your musical life. For the most part, you should be able to get by without it, and you should IMO only use your knowledge of music theory when you really have no idea what to do. Sort of like the way you wouldn't use a dictionary to look up every word before writing it down

[Lunahorum]

Learn both

If you want to be good at music, study everything that has to do with music.

Don't think of music theory as being a nerd buzz word either just because some hardcore rocker says things like "you don't need theory to play" or countless other badass variations.

[Fishy]

My thoughts:

Theory is in no way a necessity for making good music, but it can help you understand what makes something sound the way it does. Knowing theory can help you realise what you hear in your head easier and it can help you figure out whats not right about what you've done.

Knowing the basics can also help you move out of your comfort zone more easily. I don't know shit about jazz, but I know how to construct and resolve inverted 7th chords thanks to the 4-part harmony I took at school, and as 7ths and other chords extensions are one of the flavours of jazz, it resulted in the not totally crap jazz wip in the wip forum.

Basically, it comes in handy, and it helps you to articulate what you want to achieve to other people and it helps them explain stuff that you want to know to you. Long story short, learn it.

[Fray]

To keep with Snappleman's dictionary analogy; I make words up, and sometimes, when I feel like it, I look them up in the dictionary to see if I was right.

That's periodactically logalistic.

Edit: and what do you know, both words actually turned up results on a google search.

[Lunahorum]

Your audacious cataclysmic methods seek nothing more than sangradient itoprophies.

[zykO]

Your audacious cataclysmic methods seek nothing more than sangradient itoprophies.

first of all, that was an awfully asinine thing to say

================

it has already been alluded to but theory, as a discipline, may be a great route to take in rounding out your capacity as a musician but ultimately your artistry will come from other sources anyways. in other words, when snappleman suggests that you first start considering yourself as an artist and as a musician, the suggestion is to cultivate your ability to use the tools you'll learn in theory to aid you in your work rather than serve you as a crutch.

however, what i really want to suggest here is that theory really is just a language. while music theory (and like dannthr and zircon have already pointed out) is a very expansive and broad field, it doesn't serve only as a set of rules and such. in actuality, the things that theory describes are already present in the world around you... for example, a natural C is a natural C regardless of whether you call it that. what theory affords us is a way to put everything into a communicatable language and an applicable system... in other words, it is far easier to wade through the complicated world of sound when you have a plethora of terms, names, standards and explanations for things.

a lot of music purists are going to vehemently disagree with me on a matter of principle but i am still convinced that experience weighs more than a few years of musical education. like any language, the more you use it, the better you will be at using it and likewise, a person who has been creating music for 40 years will have encountered a whole lot of "music theory" before all is said and done and while he or she may not be aware of what the rule is or what the note is called, they'll know the rule and how the note sounds more than someone who took a couple of years of courses.

it is ultimately a choice you make. i studied theory for a couple of years when i was very young and it built a nice foundation for understanding basic concepts of music that have aided me over the years. a lack of theory knowledge can cripple you at first if you don't have much musical experience but familiarity with music and experience can replace extensive music theory knowledge as most of what you'll learn in theory, you will hardly use when writing.... it is like here in auto insurance... in order to get licensed, i had to learn a whole host of broad knowledge about indemnity and the laws and blah blah.... but in the end, the actual art of selling insurance is quite simpler and its complexity is in other parts of the process.

truth is: theory is what you make of it. it is there. it is there regardless of whether you study it or not. if you make music out of your garage and have never read a book on it ever, you are still using theory... you just don't know it.

study it but don't obsess over it too much. there is far more that goes into making music than just what a note is called.

[Moseph]

The study of theory isn't absolutely necessary to write good music.

As an illustration, here's a quote from the guy who made Cave Story, which has pretty good music (and the game has a couple of OCR mixes):

(Link to the interview)

I don't know all that much about music, as I'm not a terribly good student. But what I do is put some notes together, give them a listen, and decide if they sound good or bad. If they sound bad I erase them, and if they sound good I keep them. Then, repeat.

In general, the more specific the requirements of the style you're writing in, the more your theory knowledge will factor into the actual process of composition. Excluding writing in historical styles (e.g. writing fugues), I think the style of music where theoretical knowledge is probably the most important is jazz. It's such a big deal in jazz because you need to know how the chords and scales are constructed so you can understand lead sheets and improvise, and if you're arranging, it's good to know something about chord voicing so your harmonic parts will sound nice.

EDIT: I joke with my friends that when composing modern classical/art music, we can pretty much do whatever the heck we want for whatever reason we want and leave it to the theorists fifty years from now to try and make sense of what we did.

[SnappleMan]

Without learning WHY things sound the way they do, or what the relationships between notes are, you can only make music without knowing theory for so long before you hit a brick wall. Either your music will all sound the same, or you'll realize that your ability to write is limited and you'll then start to learn theory.

Like zyko said, theory is just a way to understand music. If you choose to go in farther, then more power to you, but EVERY musician needs to know the basics, and should be able to think of a song in terms of the events going on as opposed to memorizing how it sounds.

[zykO]

Without learning WHY things sound the way they do, or what the relationships between notes are, you can only make music without knowing theory for so long before you hit a brick wall. Either your music will all sound the same, or you'll realize that your ability to write is limited and you'll then start to learn theory.

there is a whole lot of truth to that statement.

[DarkeSword]

zyko hit the nail on the head. Theory is about giving you a vocabulary and about giving you a framework with which to approach music. In the end though, composing has a lot to do with what 'sounds right.'

I'm a huge proponent of people learning basic theory. My advice to anyone trying to interpret and arrange music is always this: learn basic chords, intervals, and keys. Knowing these things will facilitate translating what you hear into what you write. With enough practice, composing and arranging in this manner becomes second nature.

To Cree, the original poster: your mode of thinking is right on. Learning major and minor scales and keys will help you out. I was a trumpet player too, and I took a basic theory course in high school where I learned all the ins-and-outs of keys, scales, intervals, chords, and rhythm, and meter. Not only will it help you compose and arrange, but it'll help your playing.

The piano in and of itself is an excellent way to learn basic theory (although I never went that route), because all of the relationships between notes on a piano are visible. You can instantly see what is meant by a whole step and a half step; you can count out the intervals for a major chord. You can count out the notes and go through the circle of fourths and the circle of fifths and see why they're circles (omg spoilers).

Bottom line is, like most other folks have been telling you, you can't go wrong with familiarizing yourself with the basic principles of our western major/minor system.

[po!]

ok.. lots of different definitions of music theory.. my definition is a bit different:

music is a totally abstract concept, and music theory is just to way to put it in more concrete terms.

most often this is done using notes/harmony, ie. writing chords and analyzing them, since that is the easiest to put onto a sheet of paper and talk about. very little has been done to theororize other aspects of music.. for example how do you explain why a certain beat is more "danceable" than another?

(actually i just recently watched a victor wooten seminar that sort of talks about this.. learning music vs learning notes. you can go to http://www.bassplayer.tv/ and click Artists Features -> Victor Wooten and watch the Ten Elements of Music sections. it's worthwhile to watch.. Vic is a great teacher)

i disagree with the statement that learning music theory will make you a better musician. it will allow you to translate abstract musical concepts into concrete terms so you can write it down or talk to people about it.. that's it. it won't make you more creative.. if you hit a wall as a musician then you better try to find some insipiration

to answer the OP's question... yea learn both piano and theory at the same time. piano is very conducive to theory since you can literally see all the notes laid out

[Cree`]

Wow, thanks a lot guys. There is some great information in here, and I really enjoyed reading what all of you have to say.

As for my opinion on the matter....

I think of music theory as a supplement, or an addition to your vocabulary. Just like having a big vocabulary wont make you a good writer. Knowing music theory and being able to play the piano won't make you a good composer, but it will sure help you express yourself, and and articulate more clearly.

[DrumUltimA]

As an illustration, here's a quote from the guy who made Cave Story, which has pretty good music (and the game has a couple of OCR mixes):

(Link to the interview)

In general, the more specific the requirements of the style you're writing in, the more your theory knowledge will factor into the actual process of composition. Excluding writing in historical styles (e.g. writing fugues), I think the style of music where theoretical knowledge is probably the most important is jazz. It's such a big deal in jazz because you need to know how the chords and scales are constructed so you can understand lead sheets and improvise, and if you're arranging, it's good to know something about chord voicing so your harmonic parts will sound nice.

EDIT: I joke with my friends that when composing modern classical/art music, we can pretty much do whatever the heck we want for whatever reason we want and leave it to the theorists fifty years from now to try and make sense of what we did.

i actually find that theory being a big deal in jazz is a fairly common misconception. In the world of musical acedemia, jazz educators try to follow the Jamie Abersold school of thought when teaching, saying 'only play on this chord this scale', etc. But along with what zyko and Snappleman were saying, i find that theory is a supplement to jazz and not much more. I learned to improvise not by learning modes and studying ii-V-Is, but rather by listening to jazz and playing along, deciding what i thought sounded good or not. The result of this was me noticing patterns in my playing, and finding that I could define these patterns in words. In short, if you want me to play a "blues scale", I might say "well, 'the' blues scale, or my blues scale?"

in short--jazz is more about playing stuff that sounds good than understanding why it sounds good.

[zircon]

Yeah, that may be so, but especially in this day & age communication is paramount. If you can't articulate to someone why and how what you did sounds good, that's a negative. It makes learning and collaborating that much harder. That's why I think theory plays an important role regardless.

[Lunahorum]

thanks for the bass links

[zykO]

ok.. lots of different definitions of music theory.. my definition is a bit different:

music is a totally abstract concept, and music theory is just to way to put it in more concrete terms.

most often this is done using notes/harmony, ie. writing chords and analyzing them, since that is the easiest to put onto a sheet of paper and talk about. very little has been done to theororize other aspects of music.. for example how do you explain why a certain beat is more "danceable" than another?

(actually i just recently watched a victor wooten seminar that sort of talks about this.. learning music vs learning notes. you can go to http://www.bassplayer.tv/ and click Artists Features -> Victor Wooten and watch the Ten Elements of Music sections. it's worthwhile to watch.. Vic is a great teacher)

i disagree with the statement that learning music theory will make you a better musician. it will allow you to translate abstract musical concepts into concrete terms so you can write it down or talk to people about it.. that's it. it won't make you more creative.. if you hit a wall as a musician then you better try to find some insipiration

to answer the OP's question... yea learn both piano and theory at the same time. piano is very conducive to theory since you can literally see all the notes laid out

holy fuck, i think i wanted to say something like that =)

also, how are you, brother