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  #121  
Old 08-23-2011, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleck View Post
goddamn denying
So, I did some number crunching on Denying in HoN vs. XP bonuses in LoL. Fortunately, experience gain from creeps in both games is roughly the same (60 for melee, 40 for ranged).

In a game of HoN, 10 denies is about the average per hero during the laning phase (i.e. the phase where denying directly affects your enemies XP gain).

10 creeps in HoN are worth ~500 XP. Denying 10 creeps reduces your enemies XP gain to 33% of 500 if they're ranged heroes, and 66% of 500 if they're melee. This means that the difference in XP will be 333.33 XP or 166.66 XP respectively, and that's if your opponent doesn't deny at all.

In LoL, the laning phase lasts about 20 minutes. Minion waves (containing 6 minions) start spawning at 1:30 and will continue to spawn every 30 seconds after that, so 37 x 6 = 222 Minions will spawn in 20 minutes. Let's adjust that downwards to 150 minions to accomodate for dying/getting zoned/being out of lane, so you'll be getting the experience from 150 Minion deaths in 20 minutes. An average of 50 experience per minion means that you'll get about 7500 xp during that time.

5% of 7500 is 375. That is the XP advantage you will have over your opponent by speccing Awareness in the utility mastery tree. This actually means that speccing Awareness in LoL is about as useful as denying in HoN (not very), and gets completely negated if you actually deny/spec Awareness as well. This is all calculated for a solo lane, so if you're in a dual lane the difference become even less noticeable because everything gets halved.

Considering all of this, hating on denying seems pretty pedantic.

As for 5 second stuns. In this thread Zileas, the champion designer for LoL, talks about the concept of anti-fun, and how taking away control from your opponent might be fun for you, but isn't fun for them. However, according to him, giving them the opportunity to do a clutch dodge on a skillshot Dark Binding suddenly makes it fun for them too. And I agree with that. And HoNs/DotAs game design seems to be in line with that, because the longer the CC duration on a skill is, the more caveats it will have, to the point that even the Chronos ult you mentioned can be dodged.
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Last edited by Tensei; 08-23-2011 at 05:29 PM.
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  #122  
Old 08-23-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensei View Post
math

Considering all of this, hating on denying seems pretty pedantic.
How well a mechanic works has nothing to do with whether or not the mechanic is dumb bullshit. The only justification for denying is that removing it makes the laning phase boring - but from a design perspective, that doesn't justify denying so much as it makes it clear how mechanically broken the concept of the 'laning phase' actually is.

I'm excited for Dominion in LoL for that very reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensei View Post
As for 5 second stuns. In this thread Zileas, the champion designer for LoL, talks about the concept of anti-fun, and how taking away control from your opponent might be fun for you, but isn't fun for them. However, according to him, giving them the opportunity to do a clutch dodge on a skillshot Dark Binding suddenly makes it fun for them too. And I agree with that. And HoNs/DotAs game design seems to be in line with that, because the longer the CC duration on a skill is, the more caveats it will have, to the point that even the Chronos ult you mentioned can be dodged.
I think that an oft looked idea, when it comes to design of individual characters in games and the balance of those characters, is how easy it is to do something.

I agree that something like Dark Binding is not so bad because it's actually a toss-up as to whether or not it will hit - but then there's also Ashe's arrow, which moves too quickly to be dodged at a certain distance. Or Taric/Sion/Annie/Twisted Fate/Ryze/Fiddlesticks' homing/instant disables, where they require no skill whatsoever and are incredibly zoning tools. Those don't require any real skill besides activating the skill and watching the game do the work for you. Those are the kind that aren't really fun.

And there's also the whole thing about just how long they last. Chronos' ult is, like you said, avoidable, but my problem with it was more how it disables you for five seconds. Admittedly, I played HoN when I was really inexperienced with DotA and most of my experience now comes from LoL, but not only is a five second disable five seconds where a player just can't play the game, but it also seems like plenty of time to pretty much destroy anyone that isn't a tank. And since neither LoL nor HoN[?] (or, presumably, DotA2) has diminishing returns on disables, the meta-game will almost always revolve entirely around how disable-heavy your team composition is - and will, therefore, gravitate to the characters with the easiest disables to land.

And as long as the entire underlying structure of the game revolves around easy abilities that disable your opponents for increasingly irritating amounts of time, it's going to be really unintuitive and unenjoyable for a lot of players, and really hard to get into for new players.
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  #123  
Old 08-24-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleck View Post
How well a mechanic works has nothing to do with whether or not the mechanic is dumb bullshit. The only justification for denying is that removing it makes the laning phase boring - but from a design perspective, that doesn't justify denying so much as it makes it clear how mechanically broken the concept of the 'laning phase' actually is.

I'm excited for Dominion in LoL for that very reason.
http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/
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  #124  
Old 08-24-2011, 02:21 PM
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Bloodline Champions is actually a great game and I'm curious to see what it'll be like when it gets out of beta.
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  #125  
Old 08-24-2011, 02:38 PM
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Also http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/566
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  #126  
Old 09-18-2011, 08:12 PM
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New hero icons got leaked (though supposedly this is from an alpha build, which explains why some of them look not so great)
http://i.imgur.com/3vD0t.jpg

Also, someone with access to the client leaked a lot of the voices, and most of them are awesome. Here's Juggernaut.
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  #127  
Old 09-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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What the heck does "True Wielder of Lothar's" mean?
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  #128  
Old 09-18-2011, 10:34 PM
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It's a joke. Lothars is the DotA equivalent of Assassins Shroud and I'm pretty sure the hero in question is Clinkz. Clinkz has a windwalk ability similar to Madman, so Lothars is completely redundant on him.

I have to say though, the voice acting work is mindblowingly detailed. Heroes not only announce the type of rune they pick up to their team or taunt certain rival heroes after killing them, but they actually have item-specific lines (Slardar saying "This...would seem redundant" after picking up a Basher) as well as lines that comment on whether an ability was succesful or not (Faceless Void goes "An eternity of embarassment" after messing up Chronofield).

Sniper even has an entire category of TF2 references ("Thanks for standing still, Wanker/Ganker.")

Oh, and Pudge literally has the same voice actor as the TF2 sniper, faux-accent and all. It somehow fits perfectly.

There's a guy uploading them here if you want to check them out.
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Last edited by Tensei; 09-18-2011 at 10:44 PM.
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  #129  
Old 09-18-2011, 10:38 PM
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Haha, wow. I guess that's what happens when you give Dota 2 to Valve -- PURE AWESOMENESS.
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  #130  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:27 AM
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I think Dragon Knight is one of the characters from the Half Life series...one of the half life 2 episodes...i can't recall which one or which character. Can anyone identify him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXPTxXK1d1w
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