Sonic The Hedgehog 2 HD

[Antipode]

Needs less circle head Sonic, and moar Sonic Adventure/Sonic rush sonic.

There must be something wrong with you.

[SonicTweaker]

I'm going to give this soundtrack a listen. And I swear to Allah, if these are not the greatest MIDI rips ever conceived since Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael, I am going to declare Jihad against the infidels perpetrating this most unholy, blasphemous diatribe.

In other words, this better fucking be good.

Oh, cry more. Just because our goal is to be true to the original and not completely change how the music sounds does not mean our music is automatically "horrible" for being "MIDI rips." You know, if you had extensively read the topic at all, you'd probably know that.

I mean, for fucks sake. Half the Sonic remixes on the site wouldn't fit a Sonic game well without heavy modification. That's why I'm glad that people like DarkeSword can understand this and modify an existing remix of his to fit the game well without completely destroying the original arrangement. I like Dream Pipe because it keeps the original song intact whilst also adding a personal touch. That's what I prefer in this project--changes that aren't too drastic.

Everybody thinks you need to completely re-arrange every bit of music you make that's based off an existing tune for it to not suck; did Jun Senoue's music in Sonic Adventure suck because he used a "MIDI rip" of his existing Sonic 3D Blast music for the Windy Valley and Twinkle Circuit music? It's that kind of elitist bullshit that really puts me off from participating in this community more, because I'd certainly like to.

[Ramaniscence]

There must be something wrong with you.

Why? Because I think the character design now a days is more interesting than a circle with eyes?

You vectorized old Sonic, big whoop. He still looks like 1992 design, just prettied.

http://purenintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/sonicrusha.jpg

To me, this Sonic looks WAY less shitty.

I'm not saying Sega's gameplay mechanics have taken huge strides forward, because they haven't. But there's nothing wrong with the up-to-date character designs of him.

[Bahamut]

Ho boy, drama of the day?

[Moogle!]

Why? Because I think the character design now a days is more interesting than a circle with eyes?

You vectorized old Sonic, big whoop. He still looks like 1992 design, just prettied.

That would be the intended goal of every aspect of this project, good sir.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Why? Because I think the character design now a days is more interesting than a circle with eyes?

You vectorized old Sonic, big whoop. He still looks like 1992 design, just prettied.

http://purenintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/sonicrusha.jpg

To me, this Sonic looks WAY less shitty.

I'm not saying Sega's gameplay mechanics have taken huge strides forward, because they haven't. But there's nothing wrong with the up-to-date character designs of him.

If you update his design... then he stops being classic Sonic. This is a classic Sonic game. To the vast majority of Sonic fans (i.e. the ones working on this project), something like that matters a ton. We're talking different proportions, different colors, a different character design entirely.

What you are proposing is almost like saying that if Megaman 2 was remade in HD, it should use the Megaman Battle Network designs. The Sonic fandom is split up in to specific groups of people who like the different interpretations of Sonic over the years, from Classic Sonic (Sonic 1-3), New Sonic (Sonic Adventure), not to mention the different interpretations of Sonic displayed in the three cartoon series (and each one of them has a different personality and tone), the Sonic X anime, the Sonic OVA (aka Sonic the Hedgehog the Movie).

There are a lot of different ways to portray Sonic and getting it right for the time period is extremely important (especially when you consider there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of people who prefer 1992 Sonic over today's incarnation), otherwise you might as well not even remake Sonic 2 in HD at all - you might as well just make an original Sonic game.

[zircon]

Oh, cry more. Just because our goal is to be true to the original and not completely change how the music sounds does not mean our music is automatically "horrible" for being "MIDI rips." You know, if you had extensively read the topic at all, you'd probably know that.

I mean, for fucks sake. Half the Sonic remixes on the site wouldn't fit a Sonic game well without heavy modification. That's why I'm glad that people like DarkeSword can understand this and modify an existing remix of his to fit the game well without completely destroying the original arrangement. I like Dream Pipe because it keeps the original song intact whilst also adding a personal touch. That's what I prefer in this project--changes that aren't too drastic.

Everybody thinks you need to completely re-arrange every bit of music you make that's based off an existing tune for it to not suck; did Jun Senoue's music in Sonic Adventure suck because he used a "MIDI rip" of his existing Sonic 3D Blast music for the Windy Valley and Twinkle Circuit music? It's that kind of elitist bullshit that really puts me off from participating in this community more, because I'd certainly like to.

I think you're overreacting. Suzu was being overdramatic in his post, but there's nothing inherently wrong with musicians, especially remixers on this site, having high standards for arranged music. Remember, this site isn't about creating music for games, but taking music from games and turning it into something new. We all appreciate well-made arrangements and cover tunes that stick closely to the original, but there is some bias against that kind of music because it is far easier to do than a creative re-arrangement or reinterpretation. That's not a matter of opinion - factually speaking, it is really easy to throw a MIDI in your sequencer, and, with limited technical knowledge, make a simple "remix" of a song that sounds halfway decent.

[Ramaniscence]

That would be the intended goal of every aspect of this project, good sir.

And I never said it wasn't, I just said I didn't like it. And apparently I'm not allowed to not like something over something now a days.

[suzumebachi]

Just because our goal is to be true to the original and not completely change how the music sounds does not mean our music is automatically "horrible" for being "MIDI rips."

You're right. They're not horrible for being MIDI rips. They're horrible because they suck.

[DarkeSword]

Yeah but...we're not talking about OCR here...or remixing, or anything like that.

We're talking about the Sonic 2 HD project. It's an upgrade of the old game. It's not a reimagining, or a reinterpretation. It's pretty much Sonic 2 at a higher resolution and with some higher production values for the music (i.e. not Genesis synthesis). There is going to be SOME arrangement involved, as far as I'm aware (I mean Dream Pipe has a lot of stuff added, so you can count on me!) but come on, just enjoy it for what it is. :\

[Ramaniscence]

If you update his design... then he stops being classic Sonic. This is a classic Sonic game. To the vast majority of Sonic fans (i.e. the ones working on this project), something like that matters a ton. We're talking different proportions, different colors, a different character design entirely.

What you are proposing is almost like saying that if Megaman 2 was remade in HD, it should use the Megaman Battle Network designs. The Sonic fandom is split up in to specific groups of people who like the different interpretations of Sonic over the years, from Classic Sonic (Sonic 1-3), New Sonic (Sonic Adventure), not to mention the different interpretations of Sonic displayed in the three cartoon series (and each one of them has a different personality and tone), the Sonic X anime, the Sonic OVA (aka Sonic the Hedgehog the Movie).

There are a lot of different ways to portray Sonic and getting it right for the time period is extremely important (especially when you consider there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of people who prefer 1992 Sonic over today's incarnation), otherwise you might as well not even remake Sonic 2 in HD at all - you might as well just make an original Sonic game.

I would say that even Sonic 3 Sonic is lightyears beyond Sonic 2 sonic in means of animations and general design. Just making the Sonic 2 design less jagged, when it's already been improved upon tenfold, seems like a step backward to me, but that's your prerogative so whatever.

What you are proposing is almost like saying that if Megaman 2

To be more accurate, what I'm proposing is using Mega Man 7 Megaman.

[suzumebachi]

Yeah but...we're not talking about OCR here...or remixing, or anything like that.

We're talking about the Sonic 2 HD project. It's an upgrade of the old game. It's not a reimagining, or a reinterpretation. It's pretty much Sonic 2 at a higher resolution and with some higher production values for the music (i.e. not Genesis synthesis). There is going to be SOME arrangement involved, as far as I'm aware (I mean Dream Pipe has a lot of stuff added, so you can count on me!) but come on, just enjoy it for what it is. :\

The problem I have here is that just the idea of Sonic 2 HD alone carries with it vast amounts of potential. Sonic 2 is one of the greatest games ever made. Sonic 2 has one of the greatest soundtracks ever made.

That potential is being squandered. Maybe it's not a reinterpretation. But ripping off the original tracks note for note, and quite poorly I might add, is simply a copout.

Traced sprites and MIDI rips do not a good project make.

[Gollgagh]

Shit, we got the project leaders in here defending their work?

OCR really is getting to be more high-profile than I thought.

[SonicTweaker]

You're right. They're not horrible for being MIDI rips. They're horrible because they suck.

Then I invite you to do everything, and do it better; do it in a way that follows the original without adding ridiculous arbitrary solos and melodic variations. Make it sound absolutely fabulous, so you can back up your ridiculous ego.

Unless you're willing to do that, kindly shut the fuck up.

[Dhsu]

Oh boy, the ol' "it doesn't suck because you won't do it yourself" argument. Tsk tsk. It's pretty clear you don't like people polluting your precious soundtracks with their own ideas, but you don't have to be so angsty about it.

[José the Bronx Rican]

What's interesting is that the music doesn't go to either extreme, so the drama really is a bit much. This project calls for neither "original tunes note for note," or "arbitrary solos and melodic variations." The MIDIs used are from a few sequencing veterans (I happen to be one too), such as my good colleagues Teck and EspioKaos (John Weeks); the former does quite a bit of interpretation in his works, the latter follows the source closely. If you're gonna rip MIDIs, these files are great for it. The "poor" part, unfortunately, is in the sounds and mixing: a lot of it is extremely muddy in places, and drowning in reverb; some of these instrument sounds, especially the brasses, don't come off much better than their FM counterparts, or even the sounds from default Audigy Soundfonts. Even using the same MIDIs, they could be done better. Being a fan project, of course, means there's plenty of time for improvement, unless that C&D really is coming.

[SonicTweaker]

Oh boy, the ol' "it doesn't suck because you won't do it yourself" argument. Tsk tsk. It's pretty clear you don't like people polluting your precious soundtracks with their own ideas, but you don't have to be so angsty about it.

Yeah... no. I'm saying if he isn't willing to give any actual constructive feedback, compared to just saying "LOL YOUR MUSIC SUCKS BASED ON PRINCIPLE," and is also refusing to provide any example whatsoever of what he would consider ideal (nor making any sort of convincing argument as to why it would be more beneficial to the project), then his opinion is absolutely worthless and he needs to stop making a complete prick of himself.

I'm not being "angsty" for defending mine and others' work. If I insulted your work based solely on some sort of arbitrary principle, you would laugh me off for being some stupid newbie; why should I accept the same treatment in stride?

What's interesting is that the music doesn't go to either extreme, so the drama really is a bit much. This project calls for neither "original tunes note for note," or "arbitrary solos and melodic variations." The MIDIs used are from a few sequencing veterans (I happen to be one too), such as my good colleagues Teck and EspioKaos (John Weeks); the former does quite a bit of interpretation in his works, the latter follows the source closely. If you're gonna rip MIDIs, these files are great for it. The "poor" part, unfortunately, is in the sounds and mixing: a lot of it is extremely muddy in places, and drowning in reverb; some of these instrument sounds, especially the brasses, don't come off much better than their FM counterparts, or even the sounds from default Audigy Soundfonts. Even using the same MIDIs, they could be done better. Being a fan project, of course, means there's plenty of time for improvement, unless that C&D really is coming.

Okay, now this is much more reasonable. I don't consider myself the most seasoned mixer, nor do I have complicated music equipment--I'm simply trying to work with what I can. Any suggestions as to how I can make things better based on what I've provided?

(Also note that, given the current trend of things, my work will likely be surpassed; still, I don't turn down constructive feedback )

[Moogle!]

Here is the link to the project in question's forum, and the specific music thread.

Oh boy, the ol' "it doesn't suck because you won't do it yourself" argument. Tsk tsk. It's pretty clear you don't like people polluting your precious soundtracks with their own ideas, but you don't have to be so angsty about it.

Then pay attention please. They're not looking to remix the songs, they're looking to remaster them. I'll agree, the MIDI rips aren't ideal, but their the best most of the current participants can come up with. They are hackers and coders, not musicians.

If you want an example of what we're lookign for, check out Darkesword's Special Stage entry. This is a good example of what they want, as oppose to say, the remix. They're not saying the remix is bad, it's just not what they want for this. Again, remasters, not remixes.

Even though I haven't really contributed anything, I'm personally disheartened by the lack of enthusiasm for this project from this forum. I know alot of endeavors haven't worked out in the past, but jeez, talk about raining on the parade.

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm going to give this soundtrack a listen. And I swear to Allah, if these are not the greatest MIDI rips ever conceived since Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael, I am going to declare Jihad against the infidels perpetrating this most unholy, blasphemous diatribe.

In other words, this better fucking be good.

That leaves them a lot of breathing room, since Isaac was the one that nearly got sacrificed. Ass.

Sir Nuts, is your signature SUPPOSED to look like a stylized face on a tree, AS WELL as two men leaning up against a windmill? Because it totally does to me.

[JH Sounds]

Sir Nuts, is your signature SUPPOSED to look like a stylized face on a tree, AS WELL as two men leaning up against a windmill? Because it totally does to me.

Don Quixote FTW

[suzumebachi]

That leaves them a lot of breathing room, since Isaac was the one that nearly got sacrificed. Ass.

Nice work. Not only are you becoming even more petty in your pathetic effort to attack my invincible ego, you're also ENTIRELY WRONG.

[Shadow Wolf]

On the contrary, it would seem to depend on your reference material.

Genesis 22

Abraham Tested

1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"

"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.

"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram [a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

I dare say mine is somewhat more well known.

[The Coop]

Sonic and scripture arguments. Two great tastes that get screwed up together.

[Dhsu]

Yeah... no. I'm saying if he isn't willing to give any actual constructive feedback, compared to just saying "LOL YOUR MUSIC SUCKS BASED ON PRINCIPLE," and is also refusing to provide any example whatsoever of what he would consider ideal (nor making any sort of convincing argument as to why it would be more beneficial to the project), then his opinion is absolutely worthless and he needs to stop making a complete prick of himself.

He specifically said it *didn't* suck based on the principle of their being MIDI rips. He said they were bad because they are badly done, i.e. "suck." Basically, the same thing Jose said, but less tactfully.

Honestly, I don't blame you for getting mad at him and calling the whole community elitist based on one person's comments. He'll be okay though, he's used to it.

[Shadow Wolf]

Sonic and scripture go together like Reese's Pieces and beer. Which is to say VERY badly.