TFC or TF1 anyone?

[Zephyr]

Can't we all just get along!

No? alright then...

[Rambo]

Well if you extrapolate on your statement, that means giving players more abilities makes a game even more conducive to strategy. So why even have classes? You could make one mega-class with everyone's abilities, that'll definitely open up endless teamplay possibilities. And as a side-benefit, the game will be automatically perfectly balanced.

*wub* <3

[SoloGamer]

You know what's more fun than playing TF or TFC?

Watching alt.slack make a fool out of himself OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER in this thread.

brb popcorn

Oh please. The overall range of skill is much lower in Forum Thread 2 than is in FTC.

FT2 has far more simplistic, slower, and predictable posts which in turn makes flame strategy much less and lolling a lot easier. FTC required that everyone in the thread not just be OK but GOOD in order to flame it

[OverCoat]

What is this, /v/?

"FUCKING CASUALS FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"

[alt.slack]

You know what's more fun than playing TF or TFC?

Watching alt.slack make a fool out of himself OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER in this thread.

brb popcorn

Instead of just calling me the fool give a reason why I am such. Or atleast an explanation as to how TF2 takes so much more skill or strategy.

[Schwaltzvald]

Instead of just calling me the fool give a reason why I am such. Or atleast an explanation as to how TF2 takes so much more skill or strategy.

Just go back and reread you're posts, that should suffice.

And this is also why I left TFC as well. Takes a looooooooooooooooooog time before a epiphany appears within the thoughts as such as alt.slacks.

[Bleck]

Instead of just calling me the fool give a reason why I am such.

well alright then here

Noticed the TF2 thread was rather large and became curious if anyone would be into playing the original and far superior TF games. I'd be down with hosting the server free of charge.

Better more strategic gameplay and you don't half to deal with steam.

Graphics are the least important part of any game. Know real gamer gives 2 shits what the game looks like if it plays well.

TFC's movement was awesome though. Super Quick caps on 2fort. Being able to dodge and avoid enemy fire more meant more aim involved. TF2 is just far to slow and combat is mostly ground based just strafing around each other. If you do go in the air your just an easy target becaus you always fall in the same motion. Boring. It feels as if Valve designed it for the consoles first then ported it to the PC.

Sounds like you just sucked at TFC. Maybe practice more. Not all games are meant to be able to play decently within the first week.

They just simplified the gameplay, slowed it down and took out a lot of the strategy. Trying to rely on neat characters or a cool graphics style in place of better more polished gameplay is one of the biggest things wrong with the game, hell with a lot of games now a days. If the gameplay is good enough nothing else matters. It's the reason QuakeWorld still keeps bringing me back. Or how I can play SMB1 for hours on end but Galaxy gets old after 1 play thru. Graphics and story don't make a game, the gameplay does.

Some people enjoy older versions of some games. Steam is also a major resource hog. Main thing is I shouldn't have to have some program running just to play my games.

I'm not bashing it I'm simply stating what valve did to it. I don't cotnsider that bashing it. TF2 is more style than it is substance, unfortunately thats all a lot of gamers seem to need now a days.

I was just hoping to find people to play the original with, what I got in turn was a bunch of people bashing TFC/TF1 for trivial reasons such as the graphics.

Thats just it. Developers are making games much easier for the casual gamer to hop in and play, but in turn this detracts greatly from the games overall range of skill. If you want to make a casual game then make a new game don't take what was once an amazing series and hype up it's sequel for years just to give us half of the game. Create a new series if you want to do that. The same thing happened to the Quake series and UT.

Often times it's the little details that really make a game. Games now a days lack the level of "polish" that they used to. Developers concern themselves far to much with story and graphics and seem to forget more and more what there making in the end.

Often times now a days I see many great games get knocked down in reviews due to lack of story or bad graphics or no multiplayer even though the gameplay was a lot of fun. Thats really sad in my opinion. We are gamers we PLAY games. In the end thats what brings us back. If the gameplay is good enough we can disregard a bad story or poor graphics. Take games like Mega Man 9, where the story is rehashed over and over (what little story there is) but it's the gameplay that makes it one of the best of '08.

With your sense of reasoning I could give you a game with addictive fun innovative gameplay but if it had no story and the graphics of frogger or even just copied the sprites from mario you would call it sub par. Gameplay first and foremost, everything else is just a bonus. The best companies were built on that philosophy.

The overall range of skill is much lower in TF2 than is in TFC. This is simply the player has far more control and capabilities in TFC than they do in TF2.

Valves idea of team balancing is to make the player wait for upwards of 20 secs after they die. Any game that makes the player wait for that long at all has terrible game design. Better level design, weapon balance or more abilities for each class would have been a much better way to balance out the gameplay than forcing the player to wait. Every time I wait I lose my "zone" a little. It just takes you out of the game to much for to long and is nothing more than a poor way of hiding the fact that your design team suffers in other areas.

TF2 has far more simplistic, slower, and predictable movement which in turn makes team strategy much less and aiming a lot easier. TFC required that everyone on the team not just be OK but GOOD in order to play it. I'm not saying there isn't a place for a TF2 type game just don't brand it Team Fortress then release a terribly simple slow paced half game.

TFC was the best looking HL1 mod out there. Had more colors and better animation than CS. It was the HL1 engine really, Valve took the Quake 1 engine and pushed it a bit farther than it should have for the time maybe. As long as I can tell what team is what and where I'm aiming on the model it's good enough for me.

In TF2 Valve just spent far too much time on the style and feel of the game and far too little on the actual gameplay. For the time it came out TFC looks great.

Quake 3 was Quake game for little kids.

Video Games are the last place a story is needed. Not to mention a lot of older games did a much better job of portraying a storyline and a new game world/universe than most newer games do.

Now 99 percent of games are littered with cut scenes out the ass, boring pointless dialog and the developers call this game content. Take a game like Mass Effect, it received huge praise and reviews for it's dialog and interaction with NPC's. Sorry but I enjoy playing a game not watching cut scenes and listening to boring speech while I just sit there.

Older games like Doom, Duke 3d, Commander Keen, hell even Myst showed the story and got you to understand the place you were in and what was happening in it thru the use of visuals, level design tricks and enemy placement.

Video Games have the unique ability to show/convey a story in a totally new and innovative way, the problem is know one is using them in that way.

It's also that a lot of games are being knocked for the bad story or bad graphics even if every other aspect of the game is good. Not every game needs a good story or a story at all for that matter. It just needs to play well. Trying to add a storyline to a game like Gears of War or Too Human is just silly. Some settings make for good games but not for good storylines and visa versa. Just like not every game needs to have a multiplayer aspect to it.

Theres been too many times where a games story has really interested me but the games sequels lacked the good gameplay of the original so I was unable to ever complete the storyline. Metal Gear is what is coming to mind. MGS1 is perfect, more realism in the sequels made it more boring. Or, and this is far more rare because if the gameplay is good enough I can ignore every other aspect of the game, the gameplay is amazing but has such a horrid storyline that you can't avoid having to listen too/deal with that it makes the game unplayable in the end. FFXII is a shining example of this. I still got thru it, but the storyline was somehow eve worse than FFVII's (VIII still being the only good FF story).

In the end putting as much focus on the games story or graphics as devs are now a days will often hider the game more than help it.

I greatly disagree. Playing TFC on a very high level for years, teamplay is far more important in it than in TF2. Even more so in TF1 for QuakeWorld. Making the player wait to rejoin the game is never a good way to balance it. The classes in TF2 are all far to predictable as far as what they will do in combat and where they will go. The more control and abilities you give the player to utilize the more strategies they can come up with in turn.

Yes, FFVIII was the only decent story in the series. FFVII was there for emo 12 year old kids that somehow found Cloud to be a badass, Cloud is the biggest emo pussy in any game, period. FFX2 was the only other game in the series to have a concept and story close to FFVIII's. But I prefer RPG's over turn based adventur games anyways. Give me an Ultima or Elder Scrolls any day of the week.

I just look at every aspect of the game, not just give it a quick glance over. I delve into a game and try to learn everything there is about it in order to get the full enjoyment out of it. TF2 lacked quite a bit of depth and replayability that it's predecessors had.

It has a simply awesome soundtrack. Sweet poppy visuals. It's one of those things Japan gives us that can't help but make you wanna jump up and dance with a giant smile no matter what mood your in.

Generally Squaresoft sucks to me, but they've come out with a few good gems.

Give me a reason why limiting the players abilities adds to the level of strategy. I gave you a reason backing up my statement all you have done is say I'm wrong. The class limitations and overall player limitations just make it far more predictable in the end. In TFC if you had a good team where everyone was good at the movement and could utilize it well in any situation you had limiteless possiblities and patterns to run/control the map in. In games like TFC and CSS you already know a players movement capabilities and exactly how they can and can't move in certain situations or based on where they are on the map, this makes predicting the player and aiming on him much much easier. TF2's biggest issue to me still remains to be the speed though, simply put it's way to god damn slow to be considered part of the TF series. What FF game isn't designed for fanboys now a days. Seems like every FF game since the first one has been nothing but created for the fanboy's. Except for when Square tries something different with VIII or X-2 then immediately gets trashed for it thne gives us utter crap like FFIX.

No FF game has ever really had that decent of a combat system anyways. FFVIII's was just the most fun to master and replay with. Same thing with X-2. FFVIII was the only FF that had relaeable characters and cutscenes you didn't want to skip (well the same thing goes for X-2's cutscenes).

God, I can't stand how people keep saying TFC was too easy to go solo in. If you were playing against a good team in TFC teamplay was far more vital to winning than it is in TF2. It's just that there is a lot more in terms of team strategy in TFC than in TF2 because all the players have far more options and abilities at there disposal that all work well together in certain situations. There is just far more tactics to be utilized in TFC than there is in TF2.

Limiting the players toolset does nothing but make the game easier to learn and play decently over a shorter period of time and helps to make the player and gameplay as a whole far more predictable. I'm sorry, but I enjoy games where I can still see a surprise or two in terms of map strategy or team tactics after the games been out for a couple of years.

At the very least valve shouldn't have removed the movement that TFC had. Now going in the air does absolutely nothing for you but make you a very very easy to hit sniper or SG shot, or an easy to land a direct rocket on noob. It's sad. The gameplay especially in terms of combat strategy is very very simplified in TF2 from TFC.

No, I just like PLAYING GAMES. That is the first and only thing that really matters about the game. How much it is to actually play it. I love games with huge open worlds and expansive universes, but only if it is still fun to PLAY in the end. Oblivion and Morrowwind are 2 of my favorite games and neither have instant action or the ability to just kill everything that moves in instant action. It's that Bethesda actually took the time to think about all aspects of the game and do all aspects well. Most developers now a days seem to lack the ability to do so. The main storyline in Oblivion was terrible and greatly overused, but the world was big enough and the gameplay expansive enough to the point where the player didn't even have to go anywhere near it. I've put more than 500 hours into Oblivion and the farthest I ever got in the main story is returning the Amulet to Jaffre.

Not every game needs a story to be good anyways. Take a game like SpyHunter on the PS2. Sure they tried to add somewhat of a story but you don't miss anything if you completely ignore it and the game is still amazingly fun to play.

It's not that games are to advanced or that the new stuff always detracts from the experience. It's just more times than not in new games I find myself actually playing the game about half the time I'm sitting in front of it. The other half is listening to some craptastic half ass story or watching a sub par poorly voice acted cut scene. The thing is most video game premises don't make for very good storylines nor do they need to. Developers just often get to far ahead of themselves now a days. They realize the technology is there to pretty much do whatever you want in a game now a days, but very very few take the time to fully utilize it or utilize it well.

Older games actually did a much better job of putting a story into a game because of the technological limitations. They would "SHOW" the gamer the story, in terms of level design, wall textures, certain events in the game. Hearing sounds in the background or creating enviroments that made the player feel like they really were in a different place. Relying on cutscenes to tell the story in a video game is a total cop out and makes for a boring game. I'm sorry but I enjoy PLAYING my games, not watching cutscenes half the time just to get what 90 percent of the time is a terribly weak story.

Game developers are just that, gameplay designers. It's a huge rarity when one is good at both game design and story writing.

I'm really just saying not all games need to have a story and often times the attempt to include a story into a game can hurt it more than help it.

All of those are terrible arguments. Especially the MacGuyver one since MacGuyver had the most skills at his disposal in the show.

Give me a good argument to the statement that the less abilities and control the player has the more strategy they have in turn. Please do, no one has been able to yet.

[H. Guderian]

Instead of just calling me the fool give a reason why I am such. Or atleast an explanation as to how TF2 takes so much more skill or strategy.

I haven't called you a fool, but I'm tempted because you aren't reading a single reply given to you.

I'm sure you've played both, right? Thoroughly?

Just like how you're reading through our replies thoroughly?

You keep raising the issue that TFC/TF1 takes more skill and tactics, and keep claiming we aren't addressing this. We have.

People working with fewer tools have to think harder how best to deploy the tools of their own and those of the team. You have use your limited resources as an individual to become a stronger team as a whole.

And TF2 does not betray the class-based gameplay of the previous TFC game(s?). It enhanced it but making teamplay more important. Whats a better team game? Where everyone has a unique and valuable skill to bring to the table, or one where everyone is essentially the same (grenades, everyone has a shotgun or two) with one guy going fast and one going slow, with very...weak class differences. TF2 wins, teamgameplaywise.

Edit: Yes, TFC was much easier to solo in than TF2. I don't know why you think otherwise when mentioning 'quick caps on 2fort.' Most caps in most cases are the work of 1 individual and the luck of someone else on his team distracting or in the way to catch a rocket accidentally. In TFC you happened to have a team. In TF2 you are actually on a team.

[alt.slack]

I haven't called you a fool, but I'm tempted because you aren't reading a single reply given to you.

I'm sure you've played both, right? Thoroughly?

Just like how you're reading through our replies thoroughly?

You keep raising the issue that TFC/TF1 takes more skill and tactics, and keep claiming we aren't addressing this. We have.

People working with fewer tools have to think harder how best to deploy the tools of their own and those of the team. You have use your limited resources as an individual to become a stronger team as a whole.

And TF2 does not betray the class-based gameplay of the previous TFC game(s?). It enhanced it but making teamplay more important. Whats a better team game? Where everyone has a unique and valuable skill to bring to the table, or one where everyone is essentially the same (grenades, everyone has a shotgun or two) with one guy going fast and one going slow, with very...weak class differences. TF2 wins, teamgameplaywise.

Edit: Yes, TFC was much easier to solo in than TF2. I don't know why you think otherwise when mentioning 'quick caps on 2fort.' Most caps in most cases are the work of 1 individual and the luck of someone else on his team distracting or in the way to catch a rocket accidentally. In TFC you happened to have a team. In TF2 you are actually on a team.

I don't understand the logic of how having fewer options and less things to think about makes you have to think harder. When the player has more options his opponent has to be able to respond to many more possibilities in any given situation. You also have to think more about what the best possible thing to do is in any situation. The more you have to think about the more thinking involved and the more your enemy has to predict and adapt to your style of play.

The ability to solo more actually means that if the whole team is good at doing so they can in turn utilize those skills to makel an amazing team. My old TFC clan had a lot of the maps totally mastered for speed all based on using each others nades for momentum and precise player placement. Very similar to how good teams play QuakeWorld CTF.

You can't tell me the combat and movement is drastically simplified in TF2. Simply strafing around your enemy got old in Doom. Movement in shooters had evolved since then, but somewhere along the line people forgot that video games can be over the top, not everyone needs to be realistic. Even the pipe and rocket jumps are terrible and nowhere near as useful for strategy as they were in TF1/TFC.

[alt.slack]

In response to Bleck in post 89.

You still haven't told me how I am a fool. Give me some valid counter arguments to my points instead of just calling me a fool for stating them. Give me a logical counter argument to any of my points and I'll listen. Simply calling one a fool with no reason or statement backing it up is just sad. Explain yourself. Just because you don't agree with me how does it make me the fool.

Just give me some explanations, don't just call me a fool if you can't even come up with a reason why.

[Brycepops]

So much for playing TFC and/or Quake TF ¬_¬ Look at this shit.

[The Coop]

Wait... there's a TF for Quake?

[Brycepops]

Wait... there's a TF for Quake?

You bet. That's what alt.slack meant when he put TF1 in the thread title. It's what started it all.

[The Coop]

Huh. I always thought it was just a HL series mod.

Well, you learn something new everyday

[Bleck]

Give me some valid counter arguments

internet advice number 43:

saying that an argument isn't valid doesn't make it invalid

lern 2 argu maet

[Dhsu]

You can't tell me the combat and movement is drastically simplified in TF2. Simply strafing around your enemy got old in Doom. Movement in shooters had evolved since then, but somewhere along the line people forgot that video games can be over the top, not everyone needs to be realistic. Even the pipe and rocket jumps are terrible and nowhere near as useful for strategy as they were in TF1/TFC.

You obviously haven't played enough Scout.

[H. Guderian]

I don't understand the logic of how having fewer options and less things to think about makes you have to think harder.

Is it harder to win a battle with more men, munition, and tools, or when you are lacking and each man is highly specialised? It should be obvious the less you have the more thought you need to use to make that weapon effective.

When the player has more options his opponent has to be able to respond to many more possibilities in any given situation.

Nade spam and everyone has shotguns flying around is some sort of enigma to figure out? Just because you're used to it and overthink the gameplay doesn't mean its actually super-deep.

The ability to solo more actually means

the game should be called Fortress Classic.

You can't tell me the combat and movement is drastically simplified in TF2.

And flying medics was the epitome of good gameplay that only a fraction of the playerbase can use? I'm also gonna preempt you because you said it earlier. I should not have to play a game 3 months straight learning every strategy to get my money's worth. Should I tell you to watch a movie or listen to a song for a month if you didn't enjoy/like it as much as I did? That's insanity.

Simply strafing around your enemy got old in Doom. Movement in shooters had evolved since then, but somewhere along the line people forgot that video games can be over the top, not everyone needs to be realistic. Even the pipe and rocket jumps are terrible and nowhere near as useful for strategy as they were in TF1/TFC.

Simply flying around with nades, still, isn't some sorta grace from your gaming god. And whats your definition of movement evolution? Grasping onto straws from an ancient engine and calling every peice a work of excellent gameplay mechanic? Take yourself off your little crazy air balloon and rejoin us on the ground. There's less oxygen depravation down here!

[Rambo]

You obviously haven't played enough Scout.

Or Soldier or Demo for that matter. In fact I presume he hasn't logged more than an hour of play, if that, on TF2.

[Wintermute]

*munches on popcorn*

Oh god I love this part, it's when alt.slack tries to come up with an actual logical explanation for his insanity, and fails!

*munch*

[alt.slack]

Is it harder to win a battle with more men, munition, and tools, or when you are lacking and each man is highly specialised? It should be obvious the less you have the more thought you need to use to make that weapon effective.

Nade spam and everyone has shotguns flying around is some sort of enigma to figure out? Just because you're used to it and overthink the gameplay doesn't mean its actually super-deep.

the game should be called Fortress Classic.

And flying medics was the epitome of good gameplay that only a fraction of the playerbase can use? I'm also gonna preempt you because you said it earlier. I should not have to play a game 3 months straight learning every strategy to get my money's worth. Should I tell you to watch a movie or listen to a song for a month if you didn't enjoy/like it as much as I did? That's insanity.

Simply flying around with nades, still, isn't some sorta grace from your gaming god. And whats your definition of movement evolution? Grasping onto straws from an ancient engine and calling every peice a work of excellent gameplay mechanic? Take yourself off your little crazy air balloon and rejoin us on the ground. There's less oxygen depravation down here!

If you have a problem with games that have a high learning curve than maybe you should find a different game or stick to the consoles for your shooters. The ability to dodge not only side to side but in the air as well adds another dynamic to the combat. The more you can move to avoid enemy fire the more aim it requires them in turn.

The nades were not spam, if you knew how to dodge them. It sounds like your just another casual gamer who will call a game bad if it takes more than a week to get a kill in it.

[alt.slack]

internet advice number 43:

saying that an argument isn't valid doesn't make it invalid

lern 2 argu maet

But you never even gave me an argument you just called me a fool. So I was never able to even state your argument as invalid, I just simply asked you for one to begin with.

Calling me a fool just shows me you can't come up with any good counterpoints.

[alt.slack]

So much for playing TFC and/or Quake TF ¬_¬ Look at this shit.

Hey, I was hoping too, but as soon as I mentioned it I got nothing but a page and a half about how nasty the game looks or how awful it plays. Rather sad if you ask me.

[The Coop]

I've never played either of the TF games, but Quake and it's two expansions have gotten a lot of usage from me in good ol' DOSBox over the years.

!!!

Shit! That reminds me. I gotta bump a thread...

[Bleck]

But you never even gave me an argument you just called me a fool.

just because you don't like it doesn't mean TF2 is a bad game

if you can't convince people here to play TFC without bashing TF2 then it's because it isn't any better of a game

yours is the backpedaling that will pierce the heavens

[alt.slack]

I've never played either of the TF games, but Quake and it's two expansions have gotten a lot of usage from me in good ol' DOSBox over the years.

!!!

Shit! That reminds me. I gotta bump a thread...

QuakeWorld still takes far more skill and strat than any FPS out there.