Wacky Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Everyone knows the Federation is good, right? The Federation is a utopia and in it Starfleet officers don't lie or cheat, and if they do, they are classed as bad, no matter what reason. It was this liberalism and moral objectivism, that really attracted me to Star Trek, especially when Picard can go badass and say that it doesn't matter even if Simon Tarses IS a Romulan spy, he must have a fair trial. It so happens that I no longer think the Federation is the shining ideal of right it used to be (with the glorious exception of Picard and possibly Kirk), for the following reasons- The Federation now acts as if the means justify the ends, which never used to be the case. I comment on the poor experiences of the Romulan Senator Vreenak, who apart from his anti human bias is a perfectly reasonable elected Senator of a Galactic Republic (The Romulan Empire.) 1. The Tomed Incident- In 2311, the Romulan Empire and the Federation are about to go to war when a Federation protoype vessel explodes and causes the Star Trek equivalent of a nuclear explosion (subspace explosion destroys an entire sector of space and renders it inoperable to warp travel.) A Romulan nationalist on the flagship Tomed rigs his warp core, powered by a black hole, to fail while in warp while aiming it at a line of Federation outposts. Four Thousand starfleet officers are murdered, and the Klingon Empire allies with the Federation in the face of such a cowardly attack. Senator Vreenak, a diplomatic aide at this time, comments that while a patriot and bigot, the nationalist would never act in a way contrary to Romulan interests, which he has just apparently done. He gets yelled at by everyone, including the Romulan ambassador. The only problem is that Vreenak is RIGHT. The entire incident was a plot by the Federation to get the Klingons onside so there would be peace. All the people on the bases were actually people who had died over the past year on classified missions and were "sent" there, their sensor readings faked with equipment. The nationalist's ship was in essence hijacked by a group of Starfleet officers, one of whom tricked a Romulan diplomat into transporting his men onto the ship. In total, 6 people died, although only one is truly murdered by a starfleet officer. 2. The Sisko Lie- If you've seen In the Pale Moonlight of DS9, one of my favourite episodes, you'll know how this goes. Captain Sisko lies, cheats, murders, acquiesces in murder, and condemns both Vreenak, who has found out that the alleged information given to him about the Dominion is a fabrication by Starfleet, and several million innocent Romulans to die JUST SO the Federation has a CHANCE of winning the Dominion War. It's nice how they still remember Starfleet is meant to be morally objectivist, so it has Sisko not being able to live with himself, and that he can't truly justify why he did what he did, but that's what the Federation has sunk to. 3. Star Trek: Insurrection- granted this time the good guys are Starfleet, but the bad guys are Starfleet too. The Federation advocates forcibly removing a colony of several thousand from a planet with regenerative powers so it can be strip mined and turned into medical treatments for the rest of the Federation. It also allies with a nascent warp civilisation just as an extra ally against the Dominion (Whereas without the alliance the Dominion would have just left them alone.) This is akin to France asking Luxembourg to ally with them because Germany just declared war on them. And you ask yourself... Is Optimus Prime truly the only unambiguous good character left in this world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Damned Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 No. He decided to wage a war on an innocent, uninvolved world just to appease his own moral self-righteousness. If he really cared, he would have pulled some trick to get the Deceptiacons to leave Earth and then blow them up, even at the cost of his own life. Instead, he sets up base and lets thousands of humans die horribly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauzer Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 We should be celebrating the death of Manichean universes in fiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Dog Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Everyone knows the Federation is good, right? Uh, no. I did, however, find it fascinating that they (correctly) did away with the concept of currency given that they now existed in a world with unlimited resources (ie. tea, earl gray, hot) but found it strange that this world stll had a kind of governmental hierarchy. Based on what? Certainly not democracy. Who got to decide who was fit to be a Captain or not? The Federation, to me, seemed like it was ENTIRELY military-based. Every single job (which you weren't paid for) was somehow related to their military structure - whether you were a science officer, or an engineer, or a starship captain, or a ridiculously dressed bartender. I don't see any room in the federation for the poet, or artist, or drunken jerk that just likes to think shit up all the time. Nor do I see any place for leisure, but for "approved shore leave." You ask me, the Federation seems like a socially acceptable society of slaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Damned Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Not unlike the Autobots. They blindly follow Optimus Prime on the stupidest, tactically flawed missions, and they thank him for it. Fuck, Optimus Prime is a giant robo-dick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 Indeed. To be fair though, they are doing the equivalent of taking the USS Enterprise (As in CVN 65) and having a constant look at it. When Starfleet is the combined "mega agency" of the United Federation of Planets, you've clearly got the various disciplines, which is why people wear the different coloured shirts. But that's basically irrelevant. The reason why you only see military personnel is simply because you're on a military ship. The actual non-militariness of Starfleet actually strikes me as quite odd. Have you ever seen anyone answer the Captain back? Yes, all the time. Have you seen Chief (Who is probably a CPO) O'Brien dress down an Ensign? Yep, all the time. Also: It actually grates me that fully half of the main cast of the Next Generation was a lieutenant commander. Lieutenant Commanders captain destroyers and other fairly significant ships. Sure they'd give the flagship a full Captain and a few commanders, but they freaking GIVE AWAY those rank pips, man. Also- Miranda class ships getting full Captains to captain them. There are 100 people on the ship- a Lieutenant Commander will do. Christ, even Lieutenants are capable of commanding vessels. There's a really awesome Star Trek book series about a lawyer plying his trade in the Federation. There should be more books like that. That and the one which was "West Wing in Space." That wasn't so bad but I always had the feeling the Federation was more United Nations than the United Planets of America. That is, the only reason why Starfleet did everything was that the Federation was so loosely governed it was the ONLY agency with a truly Federation wide jurisdiction. It also explained why, until DS9, the Enterprise would be the ONLY ship for light years around. In essence, DS9 tried to import the USA into the UFP and it translates BADLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotd2242 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Well don't worry. The new movie will completely erase all of that and turn it into one protracted episode of 90210. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 We should be celebrating the death of Manichean universes in fiction. It's not really manichean. You have an idealistic, free society which is merely the backdrop for a series of stories, the stories of which are a way to explore what it means to be human, what you could find out there in space. Wars are meant for Babylon 5. The Inner Light is a pure Trek Episode, and it's possibly the most beautiful ever made- and nowhere in it is there a good guy or a bad guy. I mean, what are the best 10 Trek episodes I can think of off the top of my head? 1. The Inner Light 2. All Good Things 3. I, Borg 4. His Way (yes, I like DS9 too) 5. In the Pale Moonlight 6. For the Uniform (The really good in universe critique of the Federation. Also shows off Sisko's somewhat obsessive character as well) 7. Data's Day 8. Mirror Mirror 9. Lower Decks 10. Field of Fire These aren't "Good vs. Evil" scenarios. They all are about how humans interact with each other and deal with each other. Hell, two of them don't even involve bad guys, strictly speaking (And I do not think Q is a bad guy, so All Good Things is also another one of these.) And who can't feel for Michael Eddington when he screams at Sisko that the Federation wants everybody to be happy and safe and all kumbaya, and to the Maquis that's worse than any living hell you could think of? I mean, you don't have to make the Federation "Bad" to make it "Bad," if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 Also, in this technological utopia, Energy would be currency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overflow Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Actually, the federation does have a currency; Credits. It's almost never talked about in the series(I think there was a brief mention by the alternate universe Kirk) because it doesn't really apply to starship personnel. They need whatever they need (e.g. food synthesizers, holodecks, etc) and since they're going to be out in space for long periods of time, they can't be expected to pay for things like that. Civilians, however, do. In the book Prime Directive(Which is an awesome book, btw, with a crappy ending) the crew of the NCC-1701 have to hide from the government, and as such, must live like civilians. There's one part, I recall, where McCoy is frustrated over the fact that he has to wait in line and dole out credits just to use a transporter. Kirk also makes a mention of paying Scotty his week's salary (In the Doomsday Machine), but this could just be a joke. I've always thought that the Federation was kind of a communistic society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 Somebody PLEASE shoot Brannon Braga, as I just saw the Voyager episode "Threshold" and it is so MINDBOGGLINGLY stupid that I am lost for words, other than he should be shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Damned Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Voyager was always kind of stupid. Complaining years after it went off the air is not going to do anything about it. Actually, the entire series is stupid, when you look at it. It's either too cheesy with all its bullshit science, or it's taking itself far too seriously with its ethical drama. Fuck Star Trek. Let's go back to arguing about why Optimus Prime is a dick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Sounds Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I had to post this somewhere... Star Trek XI Preview (lolz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Christopher Judge's deadpan delivery of EVERYTHING Teal'c says is just...hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotd2242 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 That episode of Stargate was on the other day. When watching it, I had the exact same thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 This is now the Christopher Judge Appreciation Thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotd2242 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Actually I meant about how they were doing that with the Star Trek movie but yeah Judge is awesome. His best line ever was the bit where Daniel tries to prove how deep he is, and Teal'C responds, "My depth is immaterial to this discussion." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Damned Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Don't you guys hate Optimus Prime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-Duper Sombrero Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The whole "Humans are assholes" theme is quite common in science fiction, and pretty much any story where humans aren't the only characters (and even in some where they are). Lord of the Rings, for example. Humans failed to destroy the one ring and thus made things worse for everyone involved. This happens alot. Don't you guys hate Optimus Prime? He's a giant robot. He's allowed to be a dick. Giant robots do whatever they want, and if we get to watch, it's awesome. But yeah, I think his fighting on Earth is kinda dumb, considering they can pretty much go anywhere. Wasn't there an explanation that Earth had some sort of super-resource that only one side of the giant robots could use? I think they had a reason for being here, but I'm not certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flare4War Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The whole "Humans are assholes" theme is quite common in science fiction, and pretty much any story where humans aren't the only characters (and even in some where they are). Lord of the Rings, for example. Humans failed to destroy the one ring and thus made things worse for everyone involved. This happens alot. It's true, it is very common for writers to make humans neurotic and selfish. The writers of 'Mass Effect' did this somewhat too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Stunna Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 In defense of the Federation and its actions taken during the Dominion War, they really had no choice. The Dominion was vastly superior to the combined forces of the Federation and the Klingons, and once the Breen joined the war they were stronger than the Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance as well. It took an act of "God" to save the Alpha Quadrant the first time, and a full scale rebellion on Cardassia Prime to save it the second time. In the face of the overwhelming might of the Dominion, I think that what Sisko did was justified. After all, ideals don't mean much if you're living under Dominion occupation. To Atomic Dog's point, I think you're confusing the Federation with Starfleet. Starfleet is a military organization, so yeah, every job in Starfleet is aimed towards a military end. However, not all Federation citizens are in Starfleet: Picard's brother ran a vineyard, Sisko's father had a restaurant, etc. Now those business ventures certainly raise other questions regarding how currency works in the Federation, but they don't seem to have any particular military aim at heart. Aslo, I am upset that Wacky's list did not include "Far Beyond the Stars" or "The Visitor", arguably the two best episodes of Deep Space Nine. And Voyager is God-awful. Way to emasculate one of the best sci-fi villains ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Acolyte Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 To Atomic Dog's point, I think you're confusing the Federation with Starfleet. Starfleet is a military organization, so yeah, every job in Starfleet is aimed towards a military end. However, not all Federation citizens are in Starfleet: Picard's brother ran a vineyard, Sisko's father had a restaurant, etc. Now those business ventures certainly raise other questions regarding how currency works in the Federation, but they don't seem to have any particular military aim at heart. Picard later told Lily (in First Contact) that "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We [strive to] better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Still decidedly vague, but currency as we know it seems to be irrelevant. Although they DO deal with the Ferengi.... but I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Stunna Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Picard later told Lily (in First Contact) that "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We [strive to] better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Still decidedly vague, but currency as we know it seems to be irrelevant. Although they DO deal with the Ferengi.... but I digress. Yeah, I always found the fact that Quark owns the bar on Deep Space Nine weird, since he's unabashedly profit-driven. And for that matter, how do Starfleet officers get latinum to gamble with? Ha, maybe the answer to all these questions is just a simple oversight on the part of the writers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Author Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Replicator credits and replicator rations. That's part of their "salary." Also, Jam Stunna, it is when someone has "no choice" but do do something against their principles that you see how strongly they do believe in these principles. To accept to break the very principles you are fighting for is hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Stunna Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Replicator credits and replicator rations. That's part of their "salary."Also, Jam Stunna, it is when someone has "no choice" but do do something against their principles that you see how strongly they do believe in these principles. To accept to break the very principles you are fighting for is hypocritical. Well, look at it this way: If the Dominion conquers the Federation, those principles cease to exist because the Federation no longer exists. You're right, it is hypocritical. But I think life as a hypocrite is better than death as a principled man. Your beliefs really don't mean much when you're dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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