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Wacky
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Blah, I guess there's no way to turn this discussion into hating on the new movie.

Sisko was a terrible leader anyway. What never made any sense to me about DS9 is why the Federation Flagship, i.e. the Enterprise, is never there. In Insurrection they explain it away as it doing all the diplomatic duties, but it was one of the most advanced and powerful ships in the fleet with arguably the best and most proficient crew in the feet, and it's not out there wrecking Dominion ships.

Granted, it's a televsion convention they can't be crossing over the TNG crew all the time, but why would you leave your most powerful ships on the sidelines while you're getting your ass kicked? They always threw all those useless Excelsior and Miranda class ships at the Dominion as if they had any hope of doing any kind of damage.

Voyager at least got back to the whole exploring the universe shtick. The problem with Voyager was that A: you knew they would eventually get home and until the series finale, any instant-get-home option would inevitably fail and B: by the last three seasons they were just recycling old episodes.

Of the two, Janeway was definitely more about Federation principles than Sisko. Her very adherence to them is the reason they were stuck in the Delta Quadrant in the first place.

EDIT:

Also to the point about SciFi usually making humans the jerks, that's one of things that made TOS and TNG endearing. In that future, humanity grew up and became the goody-goody force in the universe. In an effort to making everything "darker" in DS9/Enterprise, they often tossed that concept aside.

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Voyager at least got back to the whole exploring the universe shtick. The problem with Voyager was that A: you knew they would eventually get home and until the series finale, any instant-get-home option would inevitably fail and B: by the last three seasons they were just recycling old episodes.

I don't really agree with B since so much of the last 3 seasons revolved around Seven and the Borg kids, which weren't in the first four seasons. As for A, I don't know, you could really say that about almost any series. Main characters never dying, for example, is generally an assumption we all have about TV series (unless an actor is leaving, which is kind of rare). Similarly, the entire basis for Voyager is that they're stuck somewhere, so of course they're not going to get back before the series ends. The point is to see how the characters change, interact, etc. Much like how we know Monk is always going to get out of danger and solve crimes, it's thrilling (and funny) anyway.

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So Zricon likes Monk. Interesting bit of information... heh.

At the heart of it I feel that since Star Trek is told mostly from a Federation standpoint it's going to default to Federation = Good, Opposing Views = Bad. Kind of like the old saying about whoever wins the war gets to write the history books from their perspective.

In the last few years I've finally gotten around to watching every movie and TV series (minus DS9. I just can't get into the characters). yes, there are some continuity problems between the series/movies, and they do an okay job of explaining them. You really do have to sort of fuzz your brain a bit and think that every movie/series/book is it's own interpretation of the source material.

When you think about it, the Trek universe has been going on for 40+ years now with who knows how many different writers. Like I said before, if you just look at things on a smaller scale, it's a pretty good scifi series. When I go see the new movie, I'm going in thinking it's going to be a good Scifi/Action movie. Rather than expecting everything is going to adhere to established plot points. Cause I have a feeling they are going to throw a lot of that out the window.

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I don't really agree with B since so much of the last 3 seasons revolved around Seven and the Borg kids, which weren't in the first four seasons. As for A, I don't know, you could really say that about almost any series. Main characters never dying, for example, is generally an assumption we all have about TV series (unless an actor is leaving, which is kind of rare). Similarly, the entire basis for Voyager is that they're stuck somewhere, so of course they're not going to get back before the series ends. The point is to see how the characters change, interact, etc. Much like how we know Monk is always going to get out of danger and solve crimes, it's thrilling (and funny) anyway.

Must we fight even about Star Trek?

Just kidding. Actually I really enjoyed Voyager for the most part. I like it way better than DS9. I thought Seven's character was actually much better played than she was ever given credit for. It was very much a hybrid of what made Data and Spock so interesting. Plus you've got The Doctor and Janeway's stubborn refusal to break with everything that Starfleet represented. Some of the best episodes were those where they forced Janeway to choose between the idealism of Starfleet and just making their trip that much more bearable.

For A though, it's just that they overused it so much. Every time you turn around it's another "instant way home" episode. The first couple times it's interesting to see the characters get their hopes up only to have to deal with the inevitable letdown, but after a while it's just like "why are you still falling for this stuff?" And of course the way they ultimately did get home was kind of lame.

For B, they did start to recycle lots of plots that had been done before. Enterprise had that failing too. The Borg kids I didn't particularly care for myself, except that episode with Q's kid and Icheb. Although that episode was just a rehash of Deja Q where Q is forced to become human and Data teaches him about humanity. Plus, they progressively made the Borg less and less fearsome as Janeway was getting away from them every ten minutes. It made perfect sense that she would run into them constantly, and obviously they can't get assimilated or the show is over, but it was starting to get ridiculous.

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She knew the borgs much better than anyone else ever did, its obvious that she would survive them easier.

What I do like is that the first time she broke the temporal prime directive, it was for the doctor. He was a nothing for most ships, but he became central to that crew, and lead to some of the better episodes about ethics and definitions of humanity.

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Deep Space Nine is the hardest of them to get into, but I think it has the greatest payoff in the end out of all the series. The "new-adventure-a-week" format of TNG wears out, and doesn't allow you to really get engrossed in any storylines.Also, the lack of character development for anyone besides Worf, Data or Picard really hampered the series.

Voyager, to me at least, started really strongly and then just petered out at the end. The initial concept plus memorable enemies like the Kazon really hooked me. The show crashed the instant they entered Borg Space. That led to Seven of Nine, who replaced an interesting character (Kess) with tits. Not to mention that the Borg had been established as the strongest race by far in the Star Trek universe, yet they destroy that canon twofold with Species 8472 (which was really terrible), and by having one lonely starship actually survive the trip. One Borg cube destroyed 39 ships at Wolf 359. And Voyager can destroy an entire transwarp hub, even with future technology? Come on.

Deep Space Nine starts off slowly, it's true. They tried the TNG advemture-a-week thing, they even had Q in an episode. When they introduced the Dominion, that's when it picked up, and the introduction of Worf kicked it into high gear. I liked the look at the darker side of the future, because it allowed for the conflict that really shows character growth and development. And moreso than any other Trek, it had secondary characters that really drove the show forward. Weyoun, Dumar, Martok, Admiral Ross, Kai Winn, and who can forget maybe two of the best characters in Star Trek or sci-fi in general: Garak and Gul Dukat. It all came together so well in the end; not perfectly, but considering all the story threads, the end of the series was still a huge accomplishment.

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I liked the look at the darker side of the future, because it allowed for the conflict that really shows character growth and development. And moreso than any other Trek, it had secondary characters that really drove the show forward. Weyoun, Dumar, Martok, Admiral Ross, Kai Winn, and who can forget maybe two of the best characters in Star Trek or sci-fi in general: Garak and Gul Dukat. It all came together so well in the end; not perfectly, but considering all the story threads, the end of the series was still a huge accomplishment.

This is why I didn't like DS9. Star Trek was always many things, but not dark. The whole point was that it was a brighter future than our own. I didn't find any of the secondary characters to really drive the story either. Most of them just irritated me, especially Weyoun and Kai Winn. Martok was cool though.

Also, agreed on Garak but Gul Dukat was nothing special, especially after his genetic alteration to Bajoran or whatever and the whole anti-prophet bit.

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I kind of thought 'In the mirror darkly' from Enterprise was a nice change from the goodie goodie starfleet to some thing darker. I kind of wished they explored it a little more instead of just every one killing each other off to be top dog and left it with a cliff hanger.

There's only so much of "we're the good guys, humans are awesomely superior and flawless" message you can take before it gets lame and old.

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Hmm, I never really got that engrossed into Star Trek, I loved the movies, and I enjoyed some of the episodes in The Next Generation, but never got into any of the other series. Not that I disliked it or anything, just wasn't something I dove into like I did with some of the Star Wars books.

I did enjoy Nemesis alot, more than some people I know.

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Until she would throw the prime directive out the window for the sake of absolutely nothing.

She never threw it out of the window for absolutely nothing. Most of the time the Prime Directive didn't apply since they were always running into warp-capable civilizations. Even so, she didn't break it half as many times as Kirk or Picard.

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She broke the temporal prime directive twice. But then again, In the voyage home they did the same thing...

I feel that prime directives (even the omega directive) are somewhat more flexible than the name indicates.

I don't think anyone ever succeeded in time travel without breaking the Temporal Prime Directive.

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She never threw it out of the window for absolutely nothing. Most of the time the Prime Directive didn't apply since they were always running into warp-capable civilizations. Even so, she didn't break it half as many times as Kirk or Picard.

The Prime Directive covers all cultures, not just pre-warp. Janeway tosses over holodeck tech to the Harogen yet refuses to take technology in several instances that would allow her to get home due to her belief in the PD. Not to mention the multiple temporal prime directive disregards.

I'm not saying anyone is truly innocent of breaking said directive, but Voyager was all about holding it up with such high regard one episode and tossing it out an airlock the next. Especially obnoxious when they waltz around the Delta Quadrant acting as ambassadors of the Federation.

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The Prime Directive covers all cultures, not just pre-warp. Janeway tosses over holodeck tech to the Harogen yet refuses to take technology in several instances that would allow her to get home due to her belief in the PD. Not to mention the multiple temporal prime directive disregards.

I'm not saying anyone is truly innocent of breaking said directive, but Voyager was all about holding it up with such high regard one episode and tossing it out an airlock the next. Especially obnoxious when they waltz around the Delta Quadrant acting as ambassadors of the Federation.

Well for one, Star Trek always played that game of "Prime Directive is holier than thou" and then ten minutes later Kirk is banging the alien princess he's supposed to ferry to her arranged marriage.

More importantly though, he Prime Directive stated that they weren't allowed to involve themselves in the development of other cultures, and it applied primarily to sub-warp species. The idea was to keep stuff like the Hitler planet and the Mob planet from TOS or "Picard is God" from TNG from happening. They also weren't allowed to essentially upset the balance between fighting cultures either by providing weapons tech or what have you.

The Hirogen thing is a bad example because she wasn't interfering with their culture. She was looking for a solution to the Hirogen constantly hunting everyone, including her ship. Plus, Holodeck tech was not weapons tech. The Federation was almost always fine with giving out medical supplies and other technology that didn't involve weapons.

It eventually came back to bite her in the ass when the Holograms developed sentience though.

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As for Janeway's defense of Federation principles, did you (anyone) see the two-parter where they encountered the starship Equinox? Janeway squares off against Capt. Ransom and the Equinox crew when it's discovered they were murdering lifeforms in order to enhance their engines. Janeway throws her own principles out the window in her race to stop Ransom... at least until the tail end of part 2.

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Well for one, Star Trek always played that game of "Prime Directive is holier than thou" and then ten minutes later Kirk is banging the alien princess he's supposed to ferry to her arranged marriage.

I love the TNG episode with this wrinkle on it called "The Perfect Mate." It's the perfect counterpoint to explain why TNG is different from TOS. Whereas Kirk would have called off the wedding for some stupid reason and then hammered down on both sides to "just freaking agree on the peace treaty because it makes sense" that he does all the time (Also rooting Elaan), Picard learns that Kamala had bonded to him and wants him for all time. And it's Famke Janssen, so it's not like I'd say no. But he says no, because he has the will to resist his animal urges.

She also learned of his iron will and patience and because she has learned of his reticience and wisdom, she will go along with her arranged marriage. So in fact, instead of being an intergalactic semen sprinkler and caused a few headaches along the way, Picard has taken the route requiring temperance, wisdom and self-control.

Is there any other indication that Picard is the best Captain because of "Chain of Command?" He survives torture that would break just about any other man, refuses to cave in his principles or even what he sees in front of him because that to him is what he sees and believes, and then has the greater courage to admit that every man has his breaking point and he was very close to it.

Can you see Kirk admitting that? No, not even to himself. Sisko? Maybe, but we've seen the measure of the man in "In the Pale Moonlight." Picard would NEVER have made the Sisko lie. Janeway? Well... Sometimes I have no idea what her given reaction in any situation would be, because she's a little psychotic to be honest.

Archer... well, Archer seems to be very Kirky, but he's a very "Ends justifies the means" kinda guy. He also has absolutely no "aura of command" unlike the other four captains. Like seriously, you'd never shit Kirk because he'd beat the crap out of you, you'd never shit Picard because he would look at you funny and scare you to submission, you'd never shit Sisko because he'd find a way to ruin your life and no one shits Janeway because she's frankly psychotic and may very well go postal. Archer? None of these things.

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"The Perfect Mate" had a TOS episode to match it. It was on this weekend, ironically, where Kirk has to escort some angry bitch to another planet to marry a guy and settle their war. By the end of the episode she falls in love with Kirk as he tries to de-bitchify her, and uses her magical tears to make him fall in love with her. If one of her attendants hadn't rigged the ship to explode, he probably would've nailed her but he ends up having to deal with that instead. In the end, he just sends her off to her arranged marriage anyway.

As for torture, Kirk got whipped in the Nazi episode and didn't bat an eye. "Spock, would you please hurry? The guard did a very professional job on my back." It makes sense though. He and Spock and McCoy were constantly being imprisoned and tortured one way or another, so you'd gotta figure he'd be used to it.

I think Kirk would never have caved to seeing the lights. Knowing him, instead of smashing the controller, he would've rigged it to shock David Warner's character to death. Then he would've broken out and escaped back to the Enterprise.

Agreed about Archer.

There is also New Kirk from Star Trek 90210 to deal with. From what I've seen New Kirk is a typical rebel without a cause angsty asshole teenager who would've broken under the strain and cried for his momma about five mintues in.

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Yeah, I'm not optimistic about the new Star Trek movie. Will they have to retconn the actual history of the Enterprise, since Kirk wasn't her first captain?

And I don't get why everyone finds Sisko's actions in In the Pale Moonlight so terrible. I mean, have you considered that Sisko had the responsibility to lie, considering the Federation was doomed without the Romulans?

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Yeah, I'm not optimistic about the new Star Trek movie. Will they have to retconn the actual history of the Enterprise, since Kirk wasn't her first captain?

I won't spoil it, but there's a whole "canonical reboot" idea they set up for the film. It probably isn't going to 100% perfect, though.

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