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Wacky

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The dude saves the Federation, Earth, and Pike who is insta-promoted for living, all with minimal casualties, if any. I say that gets the man a get ship free card.

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Remember that Kirk also devises the plan for how to destroy Nero's ship with Spock.

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Remember that Kirk also devises the plan for how to destroy Nero's ship with Spock.

lotd has already said he doesn't believe kirk did anything at all, so he's probably going to say that kirk didn't and it was all spock.

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It seems unlikely that Kirk would say "remember our plan" or "stick to the plan" (something to that effect) to Spock, if Spock was the one that made it up.

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I wish there was an iMax in Montana... I've only seen a movie at one once in Boise, I think. Don't even recall what movie it was.

How many of you saw it on the big BIG screen?

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Remember that Kirk also devises the plan for how to destroy Nero's ship with Spock.

Did they have a plan to destroy it? I honestly don't remember. I thought the entirety of their plan was to beam over where Spock was going to go looking for the red matter and Kirk was going to go get Pike.

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I wish there was an iMax in Montana... I've only seen a movie at one once in Boise, I think. Don't even recall what movie it was.

How many of you saw it on the big BIG screen?

Saw it on an Imax twice. I had to do this movie justice. I can't remember the last time I saw a movie at the Imax period.

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I saw it in IMAX.

I kind of never want to see a movie at a normal theater again. But I couldn't possibly afford that.

I saw it in IMAX after seeing in a reg theatre, and MAN was it so much more awesome.

The difference in price from reg to IMAX is $1.50, so i'm thinking i'm gonna see more stuff at IMAX.

what's the price difference between reg and IMAX where you live?

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Spock is half-human, and I thought that was something that was completely ignored in the TOS movies. I think it's great that they finally have shown some of the conflict of his two cultures.

Besides, such a look at Vulcans is not unprecedented. The name of the episode escapes me, but there was an episode in TNG where Picard took in the emotions of a Vulcan ambassador, and they were pretty intense there as well.

I realize this, but Spock's personality was well established by the original series, the movies, and some eps of TNG. And none of the time line alterning stuff should have had any effect on Spock's development until after he'd joined starfleet academy. Spock flying into a violent rage whenever his mother is mentioned is just inexcusable. I mean, it would be incredibly lazy writing even if it weren't completely breaking a well-established character.

I mean, since it was so incredibly clear that the only reason they put it in at all is because they'd written themselves into a corner regarding how they were going to get Kirk into command of the Enterprise.

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Spock flying into a violent rage whenever his mother is mentioned is just inexcusable.

The first occasion, he was just a kid. How is this out of canon? Other prominent Vulcans, such as Tuvok, also showed considerable emotion when they were much younger. It doesn't seem uncommon. The second occasion, his entire planet and the vast majority of his race had been annihilated and his mother was basically murdered before his eyes. It wasn't JUST his mother, it was the culmination of the emotions from all that. I don't believe that a young Vulcan could possibly be stoic through a gigantic genocide of his own race and the death of his mother. Even the older Spock said he was "emotionally compromised".

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The first occasion, he was just a kid. How is this out of canon? Other prominent Vulcans, such as Tuvok, also showed considerable emotion when they were much younger. It doesn't seem uncommon. The second occasion, his entire planet and the vast majority of his race had been annihilated and his mother was basically murdered before his eyes. It wasn't JUST his mother, it was the culmination of the emotions from all that. I don't believe that a young Vulcan could possibly be stoic through a gigantic genocide of his own race and the death of his mother. Even the older Spock said he was "emotionally compromised".

I'm not talking about "showing emotion". I'm talking about psychotic rage.

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And none of the time line alterning stuff should have had any effect on Spock's development until after he'd joined starfleet academy.

how could you possible know this

the change of the tiniest of events can have unpredictable effects on the fate of the entire bloody universe

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I realize this, but Spock's personality was well established by the original series, the movies, and some eps of TNG. And none of the time line alterning stuff should have had any effect on Spock's development until after he'd joined starfleet academy. Spock flying into a violent rage whenever his mother is mentioned is just inexcusable. I mean, it would be incredibly lazy writing even if it weren't completely breaking a well-established character.

I mean, since it was so incredibly clear that the only reason they put it in at all is because they'd written themselves into a corner regarding how they were going to get Kirk into command of the Enterprise.

You could tell they had no idea how to get him in command the moment Pike promotes him to First Officer out of the blue.

Still, the whole thing would've worked a lot better if Spock actually was emotionally compromised by the events of the film. Until the violent rage moment, Spock is acting perfectly rationally and taking the proper course of action. Instead, they should have had Spock choose to just chase after Nero under some flimsy pretense to cover a building desire for revenge. At which point Kirk can object to the suicidal mission, get thrown off the ship in an escalation of Spock's wrath, and as such later when Kirk provokes Spock it would make more sense that he'd lose it. It also would make Kirk's interference meaningful since he would be doing it for some tangible reason, rather than his Destiny to be in command requiring it.

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Yeah, that was standard for Vulcans. When the have no emotional control, they tend to be angry balls of pure rage. Heck, remember the Search for Spock?

This would be my response as well. Vulcans are affected more by emotions than anyone, they just control the expression of the emotions. When that control is gone, the extent to which their emotions show would logically (lol) be pretty significant.

Still, the whole thing would've worked a lot better if Spock actually was emotionally compromised by the events of the film. Until the violent rage moment, Spock is acting perfectly rationally and taking the proper course of action. Instead, they should have had Spock choose to just chase after Nero under some flimsy pretense to cover a building desire for revenge. At which point Kirk can object to the suicidal mission, get thrown off the ship in an escalation of Spock's wrath, and as such later when Kirk provokes Spock it would make more sense that he'd lose it. It also would make Kirk's interference meaningful since he would be doing it for some tangible reason, rather than his Destiny to be in command requiring it.

This would have been uninteresting. Plus, the way most real people react to tragedies or major traumas is usually with shock at first. It doesn't often "sink in" until later. We can relate to Spock's facade of calmness, knowing that his mind is really in complete turmoil processing what just happened, and that his emotions are actually really affected.

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how could you possible know this

the change of the tiniest of events can have unpredictable effects on the fate of the entire bloody universe

In closing of this grand argument. I'd like to say...

Don't compare this movie with the old Star Trek. The time line change broke all the rules so there is none to abide by any more. This is now an entirely new Star Trek with no set story (with the exception of "Enterprise" of course).

Therefore, all arguments of what should be by comparing to any other Star Trek series or movies is now null and void.

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You could tell they had no idea how to get him in command the moment Pike promotes him to First Officer out of the blue.

It was obviously out of the blue, its not as if Pike had read Kirk's files even before he joined Starfleet... And then there was the 3 years training in which Pike may have seen something in Kirk... It may also be because Kirk was the one that at that point had saved the Enterprise by virtue of having them be aware that they were warping into a trap and having the shield and evasive manoeuvres going as they came out of warp...

Finally, it might also have to do with giving Kirk a position above Sulu and the Red Shirt's position for the suicidal orbital jump mission because he trusted Kirk more in the combat situation than the engineer and the guy who forgot the parking break on...

But yeah, Kirk at that point was completely underserving of the first officer's position.

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the way most real people react to tragedies or major traumas is usually with shock at first. It doesn't often "sink in" until later. We can relate to Spock's facade of calmness, knowing that his mind is really in complete turmoil processing what just happened, and that his emotions are actually really affected.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure people don't usually go around randomly attempting to choke other people to death, even in their most intense grief.

And how much sense does it make that he marooned and then literally attempted to murder a cadet, and nobody even gives him shit about it. I'd really think that attempted murder of a trainee would be a court-martial offense, even given the circumstances.

Shock I have no problem with. Vulcan external calm while a roiling storm of grief tears him up internally is A-Ok. Making illogical command decisions because he's emotionally compromised, good in my book. Attempting to murder a cadet with bare hands, in front of the entire command staff of the ship... that's not just a breach of character, that's blatantly unrealistic, even if it weren't Spock.

And let's not forget that there was really no reason for Kirk to even think of Spock's mother as far as his line of attack for getting Spock to show that he's emotionally compromised.

And hey, while we're at it, why is it that Chekov could get a transporter lock onto a falling Kirk and Sulu, but couldn't for Spock's mom? I mean seriously, that she even died is inconsistent with a scene from just 5 minutes earlier.

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And hey, while we're at it, why is it that Chekov could get a transporter lock onto a falling Kirk and Sulu, but couldn't for Spock's mom?

Shorter fall distance = less time to get a lock. Obviously.

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I think it was obvious that Spock had actual anger issues and not just simply acting out.

Also, the movie broke its budget. Now all it'll make are profits when it comes out overseas + DVD/Bluray sales.

I guess a sequel is basically guaranteed, even if they said pre-production already began before the movie's release.

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Shorter fall distance = less time to get a lock. Obviously.

I'm pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that he was trailing Kirk and Sulu whereas Spock's mother was there 1 second and then started falling the next.

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Shorter fall distance = less time to get a lock. Obviously.

That and, you know, Kirk and Sulu didn't have an entire planet imploding and self destructing around them at the time.

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And hey, while we're at it, why is it that Chekov could get a transporter lock onto a falling Kirk and Sulu, but couldn't for Spock's mom? I mean seriously, that she even died is inconsistent with a scene from just 5 minutes earlier.

Chekov had nearly a minute of Kirk and Sulu falling at the same velocity and trajectory to get a good lock on them.

Ms Grayson had about half a second before she went splat. TNG transporters could just mange pick her up; even original TOS series transporters couldn't. I actually like how the transporter in the movie is a temperamental little bastard. It explains why people still use shuttles a lot.

Also, Spock being really angry is not silly at all. Romulans are basically Vulcans who learned to channel their rage and hate into ambition and controlled aggression for the betterment of his society; Vulcans channel it into logic. A Romulan without his society and his sense of self would be as psychotic as a Vulcan without logic- and both are basically rage filled hate machines. Spock, a Vulcan with all his rage, with his human side, which encourages him to express his feelings, and then you combine the two so that the human side weakens his emotional control...

I'm actually quite surprised he doesn't go apeshit MORE OFTEN.

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