Sign in to follow this  
Wacky

Star Trek

Recommended Posts

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure people don't usually go around randomly attempting to choke other people to death, even in their most intense grief.

And how much sense does it make that he marooned and then literally attempted to murder a cadet, and nobody even gives him shit about it. I'd really think that attempted murder of a trainee would be a court-martial offense, even given the circumstances.

Shock I have no problem with. Vulcan external calm while a roiling storm of grief tears him up internally is A-Ok. Making illogical command decisions because he's emotionally compromised, good in my book. Attempting to murder a cadet with bare hands, in front of the entire command staff of the ship... that's not just a breach of character, that's blatantly unrealistic, even if it weren't Spock.

It's not like Spock's been emotionally compromised before and tried to kill Kirk in front of a bunch of people or showed any emotion at all

Oh wait...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would have been uninteresting. Plus, the way most real people react to tragedies or major traumas is usually with shock at first. It doesn't often "sink in" until later. We can relate to Spock's facade of calmness, knowing that his mind is really in complete turmoil processing what just happened, and that his emotions are actually really affected.

I'm not sure how a sudden yet entirely telegraphed homicidal outburst is more interesting than watching a character who has spent his whole life learning to suppress his emotion struggle to maintain his control in the face of an overwhelming series of emotional events.

Plus, you weaken Kirk this way. Kirk has no reason to intentionally crack Spock other than Future Spock's say so, particularly in lieu of the fact that Spock is totally in the right to head for the fleet. They could have at least given Kirk an alternative plan that was risky, but possible, as opposed to a suicide charge on Nero's ship.

That reminds me of something else that bothered me. Why would Spock stand there and listen to Kirk mouthing off at all? He doesn't need Kirk to get the information since Scotty was right there and far more responsive to questions. You'd think he'd either throw Kirk off the ship again or have him hauled off to the brig as soon as he refused to answer his question. That would be the logical thing to do, and until Kirk's "yo momma!" Spock is still apparently able to think logically.

It was obviously out of the blue, its not as if Pike had read Kirk's files even before he joined Starfleet...

I edited the quote just to save some space. It's out of the blue because Pike has no justification for giving a cadet the First Officer position. Leader of the away team, fine I'll buy that. He could've done that without promoting Kirk a single rank though. I'm not even sure he's within his rights to promote Kirk at all since Kirk is not in Pike's chain of command given he's still a cadet, a suspended one at that, and doesn't belong on the ship. Kirk's essentially a civilian.

It's not like Spock's been emotionally compromised before and tried to kill Kirk in front of a bunch of people or showed any emotion at all

Oh wait...

Two words: Pon Farr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two words: Pon Farr.

How does that take anything away from the fact that it was an emotional outburst? They still attempt to control it(albeit unsuccesfully) with logic.

Also, I take it he didn't show emotion at 2:45-2:50? After the Pon Farr was over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How does that take anything away from the fact that it was an emotional outburst? They still attempt to control it(albeit unsuccesfully) with logic.

Also, I take it he didn't show emotion at 2:45-2:50? After the Pon Farr was over.

Because Pon Farr is a Vulcan mating urge that if not satisfied essentially results in insanity. It's made pretty clear that by the time the fight was on, Spock did not know what he was doing at all. As soon as he's "killed" Kirk, the Pon Farr subsides and Spock returns to his controlled self.

The only true emotional outburst Spock shows is his surprise and joy at seeing Kirk alive, but even that lasts all of a half-second. Whether or not that can be attributed to the Pon Farr cooldown is not stated. Still, it's a far cry from what Spock does in the movie. If he had just slugged Kirk, it would've made sense in the context of that character, but he flew into a homicidal rage and nearly choked him to death on the bridge of the ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure people don't usually go around randomly attempting to choke other people to death, even in their most intense grief.

What? MANY murders that occur in real life are "crimes of passion". That's actually exactly how they happen. It wasn't "random". Spock already disliked Kirk to begin with, had just been through an immense emotional trauma, and was provoked. WTF did you think would happen? This is something anyone can relate to.

And how much sense does it make that he marooned and then literally attempted to murder a cadet, and nobody even gives him shit about it. I'd really think that attempted murder of a trainee would be a court-martial offense, even given the circumstances.

It was within his rights to maroon Kirk, but he put him near a Federation outpost. As for the latter, again, no one's going to give Spock shit over it when his entire race was practically just annihilated. In the real world we call that 'extreme emotional disturbance' :)

Shock I have no problem with. Vulcan external calm while a roiling storm of grief tears him up internally is A-Ok. Making illogical command decisions because he's emotionally compromised, good in my book. Attempting to murder a cadet with bare hands, in front of the entire command staff of the ship... that's not just a breach of character, that's blatantly unrealistic, even if it weren't Spock.

It realy isn't, and it's hardly as if Spock took out a phaser and started firing. It was a fistfight. You really must not have much experience with real-world crime. "Attempted murder" is when you plan to kill someone, get your weapon, and then execute it - it's well-thought out. An explosive rage is what happens when you find your wife cheating on you with another man, you get in a fight with him, and it gets out of hand. They're VERY very different.

And let's not forget that there was really no reason for Kirk to even think of Spock's mother as far as his line of attack for getting Spock to show that he's emotionally compromised.

The reason would be that, you know, people are close to their mothers and Kirk knew that she had just died.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, there are only about 10 000 Vulcans left in the galaxy (which really limits their genetic diversity), and most of them seem to be rather old. Factor in that seven-year mating cycle thing, and it seems unlikely that the species will reproduce enough to last more than a half dozen generations.

So, how will they survive?

I'm thinking cloning. Throw enough genetic variations in the clones, do some of that there invitro fertilization, and bam, enough babies to keep the race going until they have the population base to reproduce regularly.

That, or just write them off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hope that they integrate the destruction of Vulcan as an important part of the universe, instead of just having it as a major event in one movie that's never mentioned again. That happens far too often in Star Trek.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really hope that they integrate the destruction of Vulcan as an important part of the universe, instead of just having it as a major event in one movie that's never mentioned again. That happens far too often in Star Trek.

This is something that troubled me about the end of the movie. The Federation has lost a key member planet and member race, all of their home-based ships save one, an entire generation of cadets, and Earth now has a massive singularity sitting outside its doorstep. The rest of the fleet is engaged in some other war with somebody (Klingons?) This should, by all rights, leave the Federation in chaos and wide open to assault from every major power in the viscinity. One would expect the Romulans to quickly capitalize on the situation and conquer it outright.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about Star Trek (at least with the exception of Deep Space Nine) is that it doesn't really lend itself well to big space battles. DS9 showed us that space battle like that went through entire fleets in a matter of minutes. Even the big, heavily shielded vessels were taken out in a matter of seconds during a battle, and you'd often see entire lines gone in the first volley (concentrated fire, battle stations, random technology that disabled ships, etc), so having the Enterprise go up against a dozen Klingon or Romulan ships isn't going to be very plausible, or even entertaining. "Oh look, Kirk and his crew are blasting away everything in sight and only taking moderate damage again... yeah, bored with this now." There's a limit to the random sci-fi bullshit they can use to justify how things turn out each time.

With the new movie, they seem to be going for far more dynamic but confined battles. I could see small groups of ships, maybe three or four on each side, going at it, bu not the hundred or so you'd see in DS9.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that makes the universe far more interesting. It will be cool to see how the Federation operates from a position of weakness.

It's kind of beyond weakness though. They really should cease to exist after this movie, especially if Nero took the time in his 25 year wait to go drop off some of his advanced weaponry on Romulus.

One would also expect the quick destruction of the Enterprise as she is overwhelmed trying to stave off the invasion pretty much by herself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, there are only about 10 000 Vulcans left in the galaxy (which really limits their genetic diversity), and most of them seem to be rather old. Factor in that seven-year mating cycle thing, and it seems unlikely that the species will reproduce enough to last more than a half dozen generations.

10,000 individuals should be plenty to continue the species. Estimates of minimum viable population size go as low as fifty individuals to avoid inbreeding in the short-term and around 500 to maintain genetic diversity in the long term. The galaxy might not exactly be hip-deep in Vulcans, but assuming they make a concentrated effort to get everyone together and continue the species (which certainly seems likely) and barring any further massive reductions of their population, they'd almost certainly be able to survive even without resorting to methods like cloning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's kind of beyond weakness though. They really should cease to exist after this movie, especially if Nero took the time in his 25 year wait to go drop off some of his advanced weaponry on Romulus.

One would also expect the quick destruction of the Enterprise as she is overwhelmed trying to stave off the invasion pretty much by herself.

The movie never suggests that he does. In fact, during the movie it makes it explicitly known that his ship stands apart from the Romulan Empire.

Also, we have to keep the destruction of Vulcan in perspective. True, it's a major blow to the Federation to lose one of its founding worlds, but it's far from a crippling one. At the time of the movie, the Federation was comprised of 120 worlds and 700 colonies. The ships destroyed by Nero near Vulcan wasn't an entire fleet, just the ships that happened to be nearest to Vulcan, and what, then there was only like fifteen that were destroyed? The Klingons lost more ships when Nero destroyed their prison world.

The Federation's main fleet remains intact, and there are still 119 other planets that it can draw on for troops, ships and other materials. They're weaker than before Nero appeared, yes, but they're far from a sitting duck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just saw the movie and it was very good! Liked all the nod and winks to the original show. Also, it culminated what I always liked about the first series, the wild western in space action w/ scifi-y moral overtones. Not exactly so much morals in the new film, but was great action and CG shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The movie never suggests that he does. In fact, during the movie it makes it explicitly known that his ship stands apart from the Romulan Empire.

Also, we have to keep the destruction of Vulcan in perspective. True, it's a major blow to the Federation to lose one of its founding worlds, but it's far from a crippling one. At the time of the movie, the Federation was comprised of 120 worlds and 700 colonies. The ships destroyed by Nero near Vulcan wasn't an entire fleet, just the ships that happened to be nearest to Vulcan, and what, then there was only like fifteen that were destroyed? The Klingons lost more ships when Nero destroyed their prison world.

The Federation's main fleet remains intact, and there are still 119 other planets that it can draw on for troops, ships and other materials. They're weaker than before Nero appeared, yes, but they're far from a sitting duck.

It's difficult to tell really. It's not just the loss of the ships and the resources the entire Vulcan system normally provides, but also the resulting chaos. Vulcan was always a keystone of the Federation, so if you abruptly yank that out, you're going to throw the Federation leadership into disarray. Moreover, if Earth is in fact being affected by the black hole, they need to focus a substantial portion of their resources to finding a way to deal with it.

As far as Nero, he makes clear he's separate from the Romulans, but they neglected to give any indication as to what he spent 25 years doing. He could've spent the entire time secretly working to assist the Romulan Empire's development for all we know. He may have spent it sitting in one spot waiting to see Spock show up.

It seems to me like a few of you wanted to see the movie just to hate on it for not being your vision of Star Trek.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't planning to see it at all. After three days of listening to people tell me how it was totally not what the trailers and plot details implied and was actually a great adaptation and a fantastic movie, I figured I might as well take a chance on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm waiting to see how Klingons are going to look in the next Trek movie.

Because Enterprise had a really really really shitty excuse for why they look different. And Enterprise is Canon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm waiting to see how Klingons are going to look in the next Trek movie.

Because Enterprise had a really really really shitty excuse for why they look different. And Enterprise is Canon.

It's too bad they couldn't have left it where it was in DS9 with Worf's "we don't discuss it" quip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as Nero, he makes clear he's separate from the Romulans, but they neglected to give any indication as to what he spent 25 years doing. He could've spent the entire time secretly working to assist the Romulan Empire's development for all we know. He may have spent it sitting in one spot waiting to see Spock show up.

Actually there was a deleted scene indicating that Nero had been captured and spent 25 years in a Klingon prison before breaking out. The description of the scene given by the filmmakers is kinda confusing, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there is a comic book that explains a bit more and fleshes out the story. Nero and his crippled ship spent 25 years under Klingon watch, he eventually broke out, the ship had healed itself, and then the movie went own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, they chose not to include that information in the movie. It's a really bad decision on the part of the writers to leave the exposition of what's going on with Nero & Future Spock almost entirely to the Countdown comic book. I had read a synopsis of the comic book, but I don't remember anyone mentioning the Klingon prison. One critical detail I think the comic book had that the movie does not the is whole bit about Vulcan not wanting to help Romulus. That at least gives some justification to all that Spock/Vulcan hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, the prison bit is absent from both the comic and the novelization. The dialogue in the film about 47 Klingon ships being destroyed was a reference to the scene. There are even bits of it in the trailers. Remember "the wait is over"? One of the ads had a brief clip of Nero fistfighting people who appear to be Klingons, except their faces are concealed in helmets. What a tease. :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'm gonna say is now my girlfriend is pissed that it's cool to be a Trekkie ever since this movie came out. Everyone always makes fun of her for liking Star Trek.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this