The Evolution of OCR

[Ramaniscence]

Uh buh... which doug are we talking about?

He's talking about comments I made in #ocremix while under heavy pressure from multiple parties for unimportant reason that were brought into this thread even though they have little to do with the actual discussion and most people don't even know what it's about.

That conversation should've ended in the channel, and it did. Me and djp discussed (and are still discussing despite Embarq's efforts otherwise) what went on in there, and it's really not anyone else's business.

[Gario]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only hack amateur remixer around here who actually LIKES, having an extremely high standard around here.

Nah - I'm a hack remixer who really loves the raising standards of this site (as it prevents me from embarrassing myself with old music that was really crap-tastic).

Go OCR!

[Patrick Burns]

As DJP said, it's only natural for a nostalgia community to be nostalgic, but I think there is a little nugget of truth coming from the current dissenters. There's nothing wrong with the guidelines or the system in place, it's just that the social atmosphere has changed unavoidably as site's traffic has increased.

With longer queue times and a bigger distinction between readers and artists, I think things feel more serious than they used to, and experimentation, risk, and humor (the bedrock of creativity, imo) aren't as balls to the walls as they used to be. Of course, other sites such as OLR and VGM have arisen to fill-in where OCR has moved on from, but I think people understandably miss having the single stage for everything.

And I think that's the main issue. As the VG music community has grown, OCR has taken the necessary position of herding the most "polished" arrangements and productions while other focuses have been fragmenting around it. It's not anyone's fault, it's just evolution.

That said, I think having more social features on OCR, or web 2.0 as it were, is the right direction to remedy some of this.

[1337 1]

That said, I think having more social features on OCR, or web 2.0 as it were, is the right direction to remedy some of this.

To be more correct, that may be one direction to remedy this. There is never a cure all solution, especially with a community like this one. At which point, I still maintain that this community has been one of the best ones around that I've been on. Other communities I've been with have gone to the dogs, but this one has stayed true to its nature. This isn't to say it hasn't changed; it has definitely gotten more serious in some areas, but in others, it has expanded (I cite the increasing number of gaming groups, such as those for starcraft and TF2, as well as the other "misc gaming" threads and groups, such as the recent "16 bit gaming art" thread as evidence) on its old "just for fun" nature IMHO. That said, other older members of OCR might not feel the same; but that's just another piece of the whole thing.

I guess, in the end, for one to expect a community to remain static is folly; people change as individuals, and that change will be reflected in the community as people enter, leave and contribute to the community. This applies on all scales and to all elements, the way I see it.

[Liontamer]

He's talking about comments I made in #ocremix while under heavy pressure from multiple parties for unimportant reason that were brought into this thread even though they have little to do with the actual discussion and most people don't even know what it's about.

That conversation should've ended in the channel, and it did. Me and djp discussed (and are still discussing despite Embarq's efforts otherwise) what went on in there, and it's really not anyone else's business.

[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> I'm sorry, do YOU want to be the one to tell him that a NO doesn't mean it's a bad song?

[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Because you don't seem to do that often

[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Nor do other judges

Again, I'm not mad, but if you're going to talk trash about me & the rest of the judges "under heavy pressure" and for everyone to read, it involves me. When you get disproven after links to 36 decisions in a row (because you don't actually read Judges Decisions), the LEAST you can do is admit "OK, I was just saying whatever. My mistake." Right now, you're just giving me a weak excuse, but I'll have to take it, because that's all you're willing to say. "I was under pressure", whatever that's supposed to mean. Say what you will about the process, but it's clear as day if you READ the decisions that we're not implying to everyone that rejected subs are bad music, and we also don't relax or tighten standards depending on the who the submitter is, unlike what Starla said. The beauty of it is that we don't need you to believe it in order for it to be true. As long as you have conspiracy theories on how we operate and assume bad faith, we're gonna have this problem.

[Ramaniscence]

Again, I'm not mad, but if you're going to talk trash about me & the rest of the judges "under heavy pressure" and for everyone to read, it involves me. When you get disproven after links to 36 decisions in a row (because you don't actually read Judges Decisions), the LEAST you can do is admit "OK, I was just saying whatever. My mistake." Right now, you're just giving me a weak excuse, but I'll have to take it, because that's all you're willing to say. "I was under pressure", whatever that's supposed to mean. Say what you will about the process, but it's clear as day if you READ the decisions that we're not implying to everyone that rejected subs are bad music, and we also don't relax or tighten standards depending on the who the submitter is, unlike what Starla said. The beauty of it is that we don't need you to believe it in order for it to be true. As long as you have conspiracy theories on how we operate and assume bad faith, we're gonna have this problem.

Ok. Fine. I'll play your game.

Those comments made on IRC came after djp and Bahamut were making abrasive, aggressive comments toward me. When made a comment about someone else saying that "if someone's song gets their song rejected they need to grow," was "the most ignorant thing I'd heard in awhile" Wes was constantly badgering me as to why I didn't think HoboKa's post was the "most ignorant thing I've heard in awhile" and my refusal to acknowledge his post with my reply (seemingly trying to insinuate that I agree that djp had vested interests in VGMix getting hacked). I REALLY didn't want to have that conversation, but I kept getting pushed and pushed.

Eventually djp chimed in with a tone of his own after having heard from Bahamut about some comments I had made in another, private IRC channel, amongst friends, in frustration, that seemed, to me at least, to be pretty over-exaggerated and at the very least out of context.

THAT BEING SAID, yes I was under a lot of pressure from multiple parties. If a bunch people back someone into a corner and start badgering them, they're bound to get an unsavory response. I didn't want to have that conversation. It was frustrating and uncomfortable, I said some things I didn't really mean, and the situation got resolved on IRC. Where it should have stayed, but alas here I am again.

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges. I generally take great care in what I say on the forums about OCR because I know that if I say the slightest thing that could even be possibly conceived as aggressive I'm immediately going to have a 3 paragraph response making it out to be more than it is.

I'm not an english major, I'm a human being, I make mistakes sometimes, and I probably the worst writer in the planet.

I have nothing but love and passion for this community as a whole. That's why I have, on so many occasions, gone out of my way to do whatever I can to help. In fact I've done a great deal for OverClocked ReMix specifically.

As I told djp I obviously have some qualms about how OCReMix works these days, but I don't deny that it's Dave's site, and he can run it however he sees fit, and that's perfectly fine. No one really should tell him otherwise. That's why I have my own site why I do things my way.

starla is he own person, with her own opinions, and I can't control what she says or how she feels. However I DID say to her (in private) that her comments weren't helping the situation and that her aggression is being misplaced.

Anything else there is to be said I will talk about with djp directly in private.

[Liontamer]

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges.

It's fair to note though that your post there had nothing to do with what I quoted. Saying YOU know mixes don't have to be made to OCR spec and that they aren't bad wasn't the same as acknowledging that we on the panel are cool with that too and don't put down submitters based on that. You seemed to acknowledge that we knew that earlier in this thread, but then IRC was a complete 180. Regardless, I got my mea culpa, and I'm good. With no sarcasm/holding it over you intended, THANK YOU.

Who knows though, maybe we faked being constructive and supportive to submitters for months in advance in every decision KNOWING we'd get called out for being unsupportive, OCR-standards-or-it's-crap douches. See, we plan ahead. The conspiracy continues...

[Aninymouse]

when in doubt blame the judges

[Nekofrog]

can the judges djp

[po!]

When Js make suggestions for resubmissions, we hope the artist feels they'll improve the song in a way they're personally happy with, that they only take suggestions on that level, and that they pass on whatever doesn't work with their vision for the piece.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

[Aninymouse]

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

Okay then, my question to you then sir is this: in what way would you have the judges pass judgment/suggestions on to aspiring artists? In other words, if you find fault in the method, how would you improve it? Because if you're not going to offer a solution to your perceived problem then you are simply whining.

Personally, I never have nor ever will make it a point to listen to all the music on this site; I got for especially unique mixes, games I like or own and artists I enjoy. So for instance, if a song is posted by a guy I've never heard of for a game I've never played and it has "orchestral" in the writeup I'm not going to think about downloading it.

With that said, it should be clear that my "perception" of the "trend" in the site's music is very limited, and thus, perhaps I am not the best to judge such things. I will say this, though: there's still a lot of heart and soul to the old mixes, sure, but the real timeless ones - the ones that seem great despite the sub-par samples (for example) - usually all belong to a select few artists of the time, not the majority.

Likewise, the same could be said for the newer mixes, replacing the "samples" with "arrangement," perhaps. Just like in the rest of the music world, everyone is going to prefer certain kinds of music over others for seemingly no reason at all... Between "Death on the Snowfield" and "Wanderer on the Offensive," it's hard for me to say that either is better than the other, since I love them both so much.

In the end, if the music on OCR is changing too much, I think the change is due to many, many factors and not just the judging process. I, personally, do not have an issue with such things, since I place the "burden" on the artist himself/herself. I haven't heard the rejected mixes, but I'd wager they're not overdoing things on their end. Right guys?

If anything, what I have issue with are site projects. I hesitate to point any fingers, but there have been some album projects that have left me with a bad taste in my mouth on the whole (with a few great tracks), and there have been others that blew me away. It saddens me that sometimes they fall into the former category, because the album projects really are a large tribute to the game itself (and likely won't ever be the subject of another project in the foreseeable future). However, I feel that tightening "quality control" on certain projects would have choked them out by halfway, and it would have only been a select few tracks being released instead of an album's worth.

...when in doubt, I'd rather opt for "more music" than "less music," I suppose. The artists with the skill and drive and self-motivation to make something great will shine through regardless.

[Monobrow]

I wish you guys would all lighten up.

[Bahamut]

Ok. Fine. I'll play your game.

Those comments made on IRC came after djp and Bahamut were making abrasive, aggressive comments toward me

Let me get this straight - it's ok for you to make exaggerated comments on one extreme, but then when someone points out that there was a more extreme example of what you were claiming in an earlier post, it's suddenly aggressive? Let me remind you how you opened up

[23:24] <@Ramaniscenc> http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=552513&postcount=78

[23:24] <@Ramaniscenc> That is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a longggg time

If you're going to make a garbage attack on me, at least accurately reflect how it started. YOU were the aggressive one from the start, and the chatlog verifies this. I could post more of the chatlog if you wish, but I don't want to really clog up this thread which is supposed to be a reflection on the change that has gone on over the years.

[Gario]

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges.

lol, wow - I didn't even know you responded to what I said, Rama... this thread grew too quickly for me to notice. I feel obligated to respond to that (even though it was over two weeks ago...).

I was really addressing Hoboka (and a few others I've seen) very specifically in that thread, so alas it came out as 'everyone' in an overgeneralization. Your quite right with what you said to me (hell, I affirm it in other posts in this thread), so... yeah.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

Umm... yeah, they have, except they don't say it won't be accepted on OCR ever specifically.

I'd have to say - this thread's brought out a little bit of hostility with everyone (but at the same time it is very interesting to follow). OCR would be boring without these little tidbits of humanity sprinkled here and there, though.

[Liontamer]

I disagree with dPaladin on internet debate, or at least how I'm handling it here; I can't speak for anyone else, and I might not even be referred to. Just noting I'm not trying to just put the best face on OCR and misrepresent anyone. Even going back to the ReMixer exodus way back, some people have flat out hated the formal implementation of standards, and it's cost us the activity of some mixers; I just think we've moved in a more consistent, beneficial direction.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

No problem, po, I didn't think you were being a hater, I was just saying it's tough to see the standards as something that can encourage creativity if you see any measure of rules as stifling. Dave covered it a lot better than I ever could.

Also, re: the Js criticisms and suggestions, they're mostly going to be geared to the standards, because people are submitting it with the specific intention of OCR posting it. Responding to subs with that POV is simply our job in the process.

[Patrick Burns]

Speaking of evolution, as the submissions have continued to increase (as I assume they are), the queue age is now about 7.5% of the site's age. Will this function continue as the site and submission #s grow?

[Liontamer]

Speaking of evolution, as the submissions have continued to increase (as I assume they are), the queue age is now about 7.5% of the site's age. Will this function continue as the site and submission #s grow?

That all depends on my free time, not the rate of subs.

[Aninymouse]

I wish you guys would all lighten up.

let 'em have their fun

[po!]

Okay then, my question to you then sir is this: in what way would you have the judges pass judgment/suggestions on to aspiring artists? In other words, if you find fault in the method, how would you improve it? Because if you're not going to offer a solution to your perceived problem then you are simply whining.

like i said, i don't think there's a problem here, that's why i'm not offering a solution. i don't think the judging process is bad, i was just trying to explain that i think it's a major factor in "The Evolution of OCR", whether we realize it or not

why does it seem like every post that isn't heads-over-heel praise for the site is taken as an attack? *sigh*... i thought i was pretty clear that i'm not dissing the system. i'm not fond of judging/reviewing music in general, but i know that OCR needs the judging process to be what it is

[Platonist]

Once you set the initial basic rule of "has to be from a video game," you're already doing what po mentioned - restricting the scope. However, if you DON'T set that guideline, you're basically running a glorified file-hosting service,

First this ^

Yes! Oh so hell yes this! ^

I have been experiencing this ^ a lot! We over at reuniverse.org set the scope to "electronic only". Some people see this scope as too wide, yet they sometimes might prefer OC ReMix, which is something i can't understand since VGM is such a much wider scope than electronic music...

well enough about that!

I've been lurking since 2002 (yes I registered in 2006 but I've also been a lazy f*** most of my life...)

and the quality of OCR has NOT changed for the worse or better in my opinion.. the only thing being better software and a wider genre-scope through time... Many of my all time favorites are in the first 1000. and many of em are beyond that.

However, if something has happened lately (2007?2006?->) is that there has been a normalization of the bar. I don't know if anyone ->agrees<- with me but the bar has been lowered just a ->little<- from being a little too high to becoming perfect.

Djp states earlier that he doesn't intend to rise it anymore, and i have to hope he doesn't because as it is now I always know i'll enjoy what i come across around here...

(i really like his plans for the site overall though, sidebars = ew) ^^

Utopia was a great find, can't see how i missed that mix...

thanx and props to the one who posted it and to Harjawaldar of course.

anyway, enough rambling

[SoulinEther]

With all the judge input in this thread (alright, mostly Larry's), not to mention djp's activity, at least 2-4 more submitted remixes could have been judged and at least 1-2 remixes posted.

Evolution is hard when you spend less energy producing offspring and more energy bickering. Just saying.

[Liontamer]

With all the judge input in this thread (alright, mostly Larry's), not to mention djp's activity, at least 2-4 more submitted remixes could have been judged and at least 1-2 remixes posted.

Evolution is hard when you spend less energy producing offspring and more energy bickering. Just saying.

Yes, replying to threads clearly means mixes aren't judged or posted. I'm sure if we just limit our human interaction more, we can pump out those mixes! Not all work is judging/posting mixes, but if you pay me, I can do that.

[SoulinEther]

Yes, replying to threads clearly means mixes aren't judged or posted. I'm sure if we just limit our human interaction more, we can pump out those mixes! Not all work is judging/posting mixes, but if you pay me, I can do that.

This is the kind of forward thinking this company needs to get it back on the fast track to success/somewhere! Except the whole paying part will have to be scrapped due to budget woes.

Wait, if we pay you... you'll judge faster? You know, you're giving that Paypal button on the (soon-to-be-axed) sidebar some real competition.

[Aninymouse]

why does it seem like every post that isn't heads-over-heel praise for the site is taken as an attack? *sigh*... i thought i was pretty clear that i'm not dissing the system. i'm not fond of judging/reviewing music in general, but i know that OCR needs the judging process to be what it is

You were clear. I just felt like tossing in my two cents, and I wanted to see if you had anything in mind specifically. That's all. No deeper motive, no accusations.

[Bahamut]

There are a lot of us on here more logic-minded, me more than most people in general - I have to be because I am in mathematics, where strict logic rules. I don't necessarily assume a comment or statement is necessarily an attack. I take a dispassionate view on statements made, assess the reasoning behind them & the implications they have, and then make a comment. Don't take it necessarily as an attack - I'm personally a more direct person than most in trying to figure things out, and I'm more interested in the pursuit of the explicit detail I've found some people to hold against OCR (I'm not necessarily speaking of with hatred) so that if there's something that's really an issue, then the site could try to improve on that front.

I cannot speak necessarily for others though, but I apologize if you got the impression that your comments were viewed as an attack by my reply.