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The Damned

Left 4 Dead 2 - now $6.80 on Steam!

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And I reiterate that you are missing the point entirely.

Well, not entirely. After all, I did just admit to changing sides on the boycotting issue.

They cost more to make now and require more people. And now after you have acknowledged this, does it not strike you as senseless that people are demanding it as either a free/cheap expansion?

Well, for a long time, I was in agreement with those people, so no, it doesn't strike me as senseless. Selfish? Perhaps, but I can understand how they feel.

The demographic is completely and entirely irrelevant.

That's rather harsh, don't you think? Surely the demographic plays some part, whether large or small?

Look at the differences between 1 and 2 (of either game). The gameplay is more or less exactly the same, only in 2 there are some new abilities, new levels, new enemies and characters. Does this sound familiar?

While your point seems logical at first glance, there's something worth contemplating. A person's first playthru of Metroid Prime 1 and/or 2 would most likely last longer than a person's first playthru of L4D, would it not? There is much more variety in Metroid Prime's gameplay than in L4D's gameplay, is there not? Fresh out of the box, a person seemingly reaps more rewards in both money and time spent with Metroid Prime 1/2 than with L4D. Do you see what I mean?

And the whole "but BGC, L4D is an online game, that's totally different" is not now, or not ever going to be a valid or relevant point in this discussion. A game is a game.

What makes you so quick to write off that aspect of the conversation?

The whole fickleness of gamers nowadays is part of the core reason for my disgust. Especially concerning a company like Valve. I mean, out of every game producing company, compare Valve to any other and I don't believe anyone in their right and fair mind can deny just how generous they've been to gamers. Not only have they consistently put out some of the most amazing (and popular) games of all time, but they created Steam, which is an absolutely fantastic medium for playing and purchasing games. They constantly have really great sales and bundled deals that I really don't seem to recall any other company matching before. They've given us fantastic upgrades and support for these games.

At no point was Valve ever required to provide any expansions for TF2, but I imagine they did because 1) they've always been really good to their fans and 2) based on the staying power of games like CS and TFC, they probably realized that offering small enhancements from time to time would probably sustain sales as well as the game's appeal to long-time players.

Furthermore, they were never required to give us any new content for L4D, but they did. Not to mention all the tweaking that was done as an effort to balance out VS play to the maximum degree. And they're STILL giving us new content for it.

This whole situation is the prime example of "Give 'em a finger and they'll take the whole hand", except it really ought to be amplified to say that Valve gave us the whole hand, and people want to take the whole damn arm.

I don't really have anything to say agaisnt this. It's all true, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I think this generation of people in general suffer from this mentality, not just gamers.

Can you really, truly, honestly, and sensibly deny that that is exactly the case with the boycotters?

I certainly hope not, but if so, I suppose naivety and shortsightedness are some things people actually ARE entitled to.

While I don't deny it, I feel that you might be writing off their argument too swiftly. It might deserve a second look.

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Man, I'm doing my best to not hate on ya, but you have contradicted yourself several times through the whole discourse of this discussion.

You just admitted to the selfish greed of gamers. You acknowledged that games require more money, people, and resources to produce. Yet you still somehow feel that L4D2 being a mere add-on is a sensible thing. You say the demographic does matter, yet you speculate that all people in general suffer from greed, not just gamers. (Which is EXACTLY why I said the demographic was irrelevant).

All this coupled with the fact that you used to be on the boycott to begin with at all make it difficult for me to accept that anything you say is well thought out to begin with. Again, not trying to be a d-bag here, but I just haven't heard anything that makes pure and plain sense come from you on the matter yet.

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I don't understand how someone could say that they got more out of metroid prime 1 and 2 than L4D, unless they played L4D for like, a week and deleted it. I know I had over 100 hours in it, single player wise, multiplayer wise, custom campaigns and maps, etc. Metroid prime got one play through and put on the shelf.

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I don't understand how someone could say that they got more out of metroid prime 1 and 2 than L4D, unless they played L4D for like, a week and deleted it. I know I had over 100 hours in it, single player wise, multiplayer wise, custom campaigns and maps, etc. Metroid prime got one play through and put on the shelf.

315-ish for me. It's not the same game every time you play it. Having random people join in and play with you can generate enough variety that it's hardly the same maps over and over, even when it actually is the same maps over and over.

If you think about the money you spend on a game, and then the number of hours you spend playing it, you get a ratio. That ratio is what I use to determine the value of a game. If I play it so that the $50 gets me 50 hours, that's a buck an hour. Not very many forms of entertainment (legal or otherwise) get that kind of ratio.

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Man, I'm doing my best to not hate on ya, but you have contradicted yourself several times through the whole discourse of this discussion.

Eh, I do that to myself sometimes. Hopefully I'll stop contradicting myself in the future...-_-'

You just admitted to the selfish greed of gamers. You acknowledged that games require more money, people, and resources to produce. Yet you still somehow feel that L4D2 being a mere add-on is a sensible thing.

No, no, no, that's too far. I told you, I'm on the "$60 is acceptable" side. I merely said that I can understand how they feel. You know, get in the mind of the killer, so to speak.

You say the demographic does matter, yet you speculate that all people in general suffer from greed, not just gamers. (Which is EXACTLY why I said the demographic was irrelevant).

Here, let me explain: The demographic matters in the sense that Sonic 2 was made with the 6-12 year old Sega Genesis demographic in mind. While L4D was made with the 18 and over Xbox 360/PS3/PC demographic in mind. An 18 year old L4D owner has a lot more expectations for his sequel than a 6 year old Sonic 2 owner, doesn't he? Dare I say, expectations that just might be valid, and deserved?

All this coupled with the fact that you used to be on the boycott to begin with at all make it difficult for me to accept that anything you say is well thought out to begin with. Again, not trying to be a d-bag here, but I just haven't heard anything that makes pure and plain sense come from you on the matter yet.

Well, read the above. If we still don't see eye to eye, no hard feelings, how's that sound? ;-)

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The part where it leads into Left 4 Dead 2 made me a little sad. I mean while I'm part of the group that joined the L4D2 boycott, I'm still going to end up buying it anyway. I was just upset that it meant the many updates that TF2 got wouldn't really mirror L4D1's progress when I first heard of the game, but... This video just made me realize that Francis, Lous, Bill, and Zoey are going to be out of the limelight come this November.

By the way you should all check out the rest of the series of The Idiot Box videos. I was going to recommend watching the rest of this one video I linked, but it'd be funnier if you were tuned into the rest of the inside jokes first, really.

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Haha, indeed.

Look fellers, Edge and Damned have really just simplified this whole matter with what they just touched on. Determining the value of a product based on how much you use it. It's a pretty sensible idea, really. I paid $45 for L4D, and I have probably got 200+ hours of fun out of it. If we run with our Metroid Prime example, I've played through both probably 3 times each. At ~6 hours per run-through, that's ~36 hours.

I'm willing to wager that every single person (out of the 45,000+ members) of the boycott have played the game at least 50 hours. Personally, I'd say they've got their money's worth. And yet when presented with a sequel, they immediately forget all the satisfaction they have got (and that many are still probably getting) from playing the game for hours and hours and hours, and start demanding that they receive more for free or cheap. That's just unhealthy, plain and simple.

Naturally, I suppose Valve's generosity with TF2 was ultimately the damning motion in this pathetic Catch-22 that they're in, which again, I find exceptionally sad, disappointing, and disgusting.

Here's an analogy. Let's say I saw that my neighbor's lawn was getting too long and one day I decided to be a good neighbor and mow it for him without expecting compensation. In a couple weeks, the grass is long again, so I mow his lawn again. Repeat this process a few more times. Then, a couple weeks later, he shows up on my doorstep and demands to know why I haven't mowed his lawn again already. I would be livid. I'd probably spit right in his face. Instead of gratitude or excitement, he has taken advantage of a courtesy I provided and displayed contemptible greed and and selfishness. His fictional behavior is not unlike the actual behavior of all the participants (past or current) of the boycott.

And for the possible few (I'd imagine very very few) who are boycotting who have only played the game for a few hours, I suppose I wouldn't want to pay full price for a sequel either. But

1)Why do you care? You don't even play the game much.

and 2)Lucky for you Valve will probably be having a 1/2 off sale very shortly. And if they don't, it'll be down to $30 in a few months anyway, and probably $15 or $20 within a couple years.

The rest of us are willing to pay a higher price to play the game right away. You do not have that right if you don't pay up. Do you have a problem with this? Too bad, that's how games/movies have always worked. Better learn to live with it.

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I guess my biggest complaint really is that just the fact that they released the trailers for L4D2 less than 7 months after the release of L4D1. Just knowing that made it feel like Valve was already labeling L4D1 obsolete after that short of a time, and that's what really got me upset the most.

A few months after the announcement of L4D2 to be honest I look forward to getting the game. It's just that anybody who is part of the Steam community can't help but think that Valve could have given us more updates, and better quality updates. Like how long it took to get Death Toll and Dead Air in Versus mode, it just feels a bit inexcusable to push a new game after the first one didn't get a fair amount of love from the developers after release.

This is really a unique situation for me and many other people. A sequel to a game getting released within 1 year of the original, from a company that's well known for new content and fixes on previously established online games. I've heard a lot of counter-arguments that say that nobody complained when Metroid Prime 2 or Gears of War 2 came out, but this isn't the same situation, really.

I guess you can just say Valve spoiled us.

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He's BGC. That's the way he rolls, bitch.

I even tell you about the time he, myself and two randoms completely stomped a "clan"? It was like watching little kids fighting against Marines.

True story.

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Well I'm satisfied with the time I got out of Left 4 Dead, and I still get plenty of good times out of it so I'm fine with Valve releasing Left 4 Dead 2. Won't be able to grab it for awhile since I'm a broke motherfucker(maybe Christmas), so I'd still be excited if they released more campaigns as DLC for the first.

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I love being an Australian gamer. Our government keeps our minds so well protected by not giving games an R rating. Inconsistency you say? NO, not the OFLC, they'll never give one game a rating of MA which is clearly more brutal and violent than a game they just banned. Of course it's ok to have an R rating for movies and not games, it's not like the average age of gamers in Australia is 30 or anything. The OFLC knows EXACTLY what's best for us......

I fucking hate the OFLC.

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I don't think they can. Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I heard that they monitor post, and if they detect something that has been banned, they send a trained pack of angry wallabies to your house and eat your face.

Right? I'm pretty sure I'm an expert on Australian culture, custom, and protocol.

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Wow, that really bites. I'm certainly no fan of the way a few Western nations are hyper-sensitive about violence in video games. Australia and Germany come most quickly to mind. If I recall correctly, the characters in TF2 had to be converted into cyborgs to get past Germany's ludicrous levels of censorship.

But here's what I don't get. If a movie like 28 Days Later can be released in Australia, depicting acts of violence against infected, but living humans, what makes Left 4 Dead so different? I guess you can make the argument that the player has a hand in the violence directly, but I don't really buy that as a serious argument.

My condolences to our friends in Australia. Hopefully something will come up for all of you down there.

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