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The Damned

Left 4 Dead 2 - now $6.80 on Steam!

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THEN SHUT UP AND DON'T BUY IT THEN. Or wait for it to go on sale. Your argument remains completely preposterous. Again, it's based on this whole concept of (false) entitlement that you have. If Valve creates a product, they are obligated to set the price and terms of release to whatever they want (or need), NOT whatever YOU want. If you do not agree with the value they've placed on their product, then don't get it, simple as that. How is that complicated?

It seriously boils down to this: You want L4D2 to be an expansion to L4D1, and preferably a free one. But it's not, and you're throwing a tantrum about it, and you're not going to stop until everyone agrees with you that it should be a free/cheap expansion because you're used to getting free stuff from the same company for another game you like better.

He's perfectly free to complain about L4D in light of the recent news of L4D2, and he never said he wanted a free addition to l4d; DLC with charge is fine as he said as well as expansion pack. He, myself included, and many others would have simply enjoyed seeing new content added to L4D.

Really, why have they yet to release the SDk for L4D? Once that is out, then hey the modding community will pick up from there. Unlike vanilla Quake, L4D isn't as simple and working a few hacks in is bound to be slow and tedious for a majority that there's no point in even bothering to add new content if another version is better, thus lowering its value.

Okay so they miss out some awesome coop experience, those that actually bought it and played it can say that but those that haven't will just skip it altogether...

Chances are I will buy L4D2 anyways, but it doesn't remove the feeling that the original iteration was overpriced for what should have been an "expansive" game; if not from valve then from the modding community, free or not.

edit: Also went for the PC version as I have no 360 and already had that hunch it was going to be crippled on the console port. :lol:

Also please do not bring the gamefaggotry here, this is after all the OCR Forums not gamefaqs :wink:

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He's perfectly free to complain about L4D in light of the recent news of L4D2, and he never said he wanted a free addition to l4d; DLC with charge is fine as he said as well as expansion pack.

I didn't ovelook that. See "It seriously boils down to this: You want L4D2 to be an expansion to L4D1, and preferably a free one."

He, myself included, and many others would have simply enjoyed seeing new content added to L4D.

I would also. But I don't get the impression that this is NJ's core issue at all. And if it is, it still goes back to the premise that we're all spoiled because Valve was good enough to release anything for free at all.

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Well all we can do now is wait for that SDK pack to be released for that extra content then. :)!!

Let the modding community pick up where Valve leaves off, which they had done before with HL/TFC.

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I didn't ovelook that. See "It seriously boils down to this: You want L4D2 to be an expansion to L4D1, and preferably a free one."

He...never said he would have preferred that. He said he found it perfectly acceptable to pay for it as DLC or an expansion pack.

I would also. But I don't get the impression that this is NJ's core issue at all. And if it is, it still goes back to the premise that we're all spoiled because Valve was good enough to release anything for free at all.

Ok, here's something you and Darksword need to understand. There is nothing wrong with expecting a company to treat you as an intelligent consumer who weighs his purchases carefully. As soon as a company sees it's fanbase as drooling consumers who will buy anything they can get their mits on, we're screwed!!! Quality control is chucked outta the window, and the advantage-taking begins!

You see, we don't expect things for free; we're not spoiled. But we also don't want to pay full price for what is fundementally the same experience.

And another thing, stop pretending that L4D1's fanbase won't migrate to L4D2's fanbase en masse. L4D1's fanbase is gonna shrivel up the moment the new game comes out! Yeah, sure a few people will stick around. But for the most part, probably 3/4 or more of L4D1's fanbase will be gone! Thinking otherwise is simply naive!

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Ok, so you guys that are arguing this are still avoiding the Unreal gaming series, Quake series, etc references here as a point of "paying full price for an update" kinda setup here. I paid full price for UT 2004, but owned the other UT games, and there was less stuff added to it than L4D2, but the butthurt over that was nothing compared to the pansy sissy fits being thrown over L4D.

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Valve has spoiled all of us, because they're so much better than the norm, that when they actually just follow the standard (instead ofd going way above) people complain.

Okay. And? What's wrong with that? Valve acts in a certain way that we like, even though no one else does. We're happy. Then Valve does something we don't like, just like everyone else. We complain because we're used to Valve being more awesome than that. I don't see the problem.

THEN SHUT UP AND DON'T BUY IT THEN.

Except that I already did, under the (now proving false) belief that Valve would support L4D as well as it did its other online-only teamwork-focused multiplayer game, TF2. If I go to an ice cream shop and the guy in front of me orders a scoop of chocolate ice cream and gets a second scoop for free, then I order a scoop of vanilla and that's all I get, what's wrong with wondering "how come he got more than I did for free"? I'm not saying "my only-one-scoop sucks now!" or "omg I'm never buying ice cream here again!" or "RAGHASPDGHAGASG I'M GONNA BURN THIS PLACE DOWN CAUSE I DIDN'T GET FREE ICE CREAM!!!!!!111!", I'm just saying that I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to free stuff that it seemed likely I'd get, but ended up not.

It seriously boils down to this: You want L4D2 to be an expansion to L4D1, and preferably a free one. But it's not, and you're throwing a tantrum about it, and you're not going to stop until everyone agrees with you that it should be a free/cheap expansion because you're used to getting free stuff from the same company for another game you like better.

Except I'm not. :? I'm just expressing the opinion that I'm disappointed in Valve for not supporting L4D nearly as well as they do TF2, and pointing out alternatives that I think are more reasonable. I'm not "throwing a tantrum" and I'm not going to go on and on about the subject "until everyone agrees with me". It's a conversation, man; we're going back and forth about the topic. If you want to label me and my opinion idiotic and leave, feel free. Just don't insult me because I don't agree with you.

First off, I didn't pay "60" bucks for L4D.

Congratulations, you're special. Some of us bought it at launch.

I got it for pc, you know, a gaming system that the game is made for, unlike some crappy 360 bastardization of a fps.

Congratulations, you're special. Some of us didn't have a decent enough computer to play it when it first come out. And even more shocking, some of us prefer gamepad controls to mouse/keyboard.

So if you really want to bitch about that, you are a retard.

I love you too. You're such a conversationalist.

But I don't get the impression that this is NJ's core issue at all. And if it is, it still goes back to the premise that we're all spoiled because Valve was good enough to release anything for free at all.

The main difference we're having is that I think it's reasonable to expect Valve to do the same thing that they do for one of their games (lots of extra stuff for TF2) for one of their other games (L4D) -- even if it's not exactly the same (I'd be willing to pay for L4D stuff even though TF2 stuff was free). You disagree. That's fine, whatever. The reason that the conversation has gotten as heated as it has is because I don't particularly enjoy being accused of feeling entitled or being selfish just for asking "hey, why does TF2 get all this stuff and L4D doesn't?". Isn't it a reasonable question? What's the difference between TF2 and L4D that one gets loads and loads of free content while the other does not? I realize that Valve isn't required to provide us with any free content, but they do anyway, which is awesome. It's one of the best things about the company. So when they don't offer free content anymore, my reaction is disappointment. That's not selfishness or a sense of entitlement; that's just natural.

I'm not sitting here jumping up and down on my keyboard going "OMG VALVE R FAGGETS WTF IS THIS BULL&!$@". I'm just saying "hey, they didn't support L4D like they did TF2, that sucks".

You see, we don't expect things for free; we're not spoiled. But we also don't want to pay full price for what is fundementally the same experience.

This is basically what I'm trying to get at. Left 4 Dead was a good game. I'm sure Left 4 Dead 2 will be a good game too. But two good games for full price each is "okay", while one good game for full price plus a boatload of extra content for a moderate fee is "awesome". We're used to Valve games being awesome rather than okay. We expect high quality and lots of content from Valve games. When we're presented with less than that, we express disappointment because Valve isn't living up to their past products. How is that being spoiled?

Ok, so you guys that are arguing this are still avoiding the Unreal gaming series, Quake series, etc references here as a point of "paying full price for an update" kinda setup here. I paid full price for UT 2004, but owned the other UT games, and there was less stuff added to it than L4D2, but the butthurt over that was nothing compared to the pansy sissy fits being thrown over L4D.

Good for you; I didn't buy the Unreal or Quake upgrades. I didn't think it's worth the money. I may or may not buy L4D2 -- it depends on what extra content is ultimately added and how much it actually ends up costing. But the original L4D I bought with the expectation -- based on what Valve did with TF2, which seems like a reasonable basis to me -- that more content would be added eventually. They did some, in the form of completing Versus mode and adding Survivor mode, which made me happy. But none of that was actually new -- not in the way that the TF2 updates add new things. Now that L4D2 has been announced, it seems unlikely that anything new ever will be added to L4D, which upsets me because part of the reason I got it in the first place was because I was expecting TF2-style updates. Maybe not on the same scale -- TF2's updates have been massive after all -- but I expected something at least. New weapons (how hard would that be, really?), new gametypes (maybe something where you have to clear an area of infected instead of just moving from point A to point B? Maybe something where you have to hunt down and kill a specific zombie -- say, a witch -- while the other infected on the map try to protect it?), new abilities (adding some uniqueness to the characters, perhaps? Zoey's a little faster, Bill's a little more accurate, Francis is a little stronger, etc?), something that actually changes the way the game is played, unlike the DLC we did get which, fundamentally, doesn't.

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Ok, so you guys that are arguing this are still avoiding the Unreal gaming series, Quake series, etc references here as a point of "paying full price for an update" kinda setup here. I paid full price for UT 2004, but owned the other UT games, and there was less stuff added to it than L4D2, but the butthurt over that was nothing compared to the pansy sissy fits being thrown over L4D.

Those games have SDK packs out already while L4D still has yet to release one... Also I always felt the UT series was shit but that's of a personal opinion, Oh dear.

Quake was always awesome though :)!!

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Okay. And? What's wrong with that? Valve acts in a certain way that we like, even though no one else does. We're happy. Then Valve does something we don't like, just like everyone else. We complain because we're used to Valve being more awesome than that. I don't see the problem.

You should be grateful that you were treated better to begin with, and keep your mouth shut otherwise unless you're being treated WORSE than any other company. Here's a hint from a business owner; businesses don't like ungrateful consumers in this kind of situation. Valve is doing US a favor by giving us free things. Your ingratitude is not exactly making them WANT to keep doing that.

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Just for the record NJ, I bought L4D at launch. It's not my fault you didn't look around for deals on it. In fact, I bought it the day after launch, so PWNT.

That and you bought it for 360. A system where most DLC is costly. Plus, most of valve's stuff is kinda crappily implemented anyway. How was that TF2 stuff for the 360 version? Oh wait, yeah.

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You should be grateful that you were treated better to begin with, and keep your mouth shut otherwise unless you're being treated WORSE than any other company. Here's a hint from a business owner; businesses don't like ungrateful consumers in this kind of situation. Valve is doing US a favor by giving us free things. Your ingratitude is not exactly making them WANT to keep doing that.

How does that make any sense? I am grateful for the extra TF2 content -- grateful enough that I bought it twice. Hey, guess what, that's extra money in Valve's pocket because of all the free stuff they released! They're not releasing this stuff because they love us; they release it because it increases the value of the game, which makes people more likely to buy it if they haven't yet or keep playing it if they have. The more people enjoy playing the game, the more people are likely to look on Valve favorably in the future.

The problem is that they set a precedent. If they release a bunch of free stuff for TF2 post-release, and people go "awesome, look at all this stuff Valve did, thanks!" then people expect that kind of thing again in the future. The idea is that Valve says "hey people love this game because of all the extras we gave them, we should release extras for our other games too and they'll like those as well". So when that doesn't actually happen, people get annoyed. Why did TF2 get free stuff but L4D didn't? It makes them look bad because they didn't give the same level of support to L4D that they did to TF2. I'm unhappy that they didn't give L4D that level of support. How is expressing this opinion "ungrateful"? It cuts both ways -- Valve does something I like (free TF2 stuff) I buy it again and thank them for the reason to give them more money. But when Valve does something I don't like (no L4D stuff) I don't buy it anymore (I've been considering getting the PC version of L4D just to be able to play it with another group of people -- not happening now) and I voice my opinion on the matter.

Just for the record NJ, I bought L4D at launch. It's not my fault you didn't look around for deals on it. In fact, I bought it the day after launch, so PWNT.

That and you bought it for 360. A system where most DLC is costly. Plus, most of valve's stuff is kinda crappily implemented anyway. How was that TF2 stuff for the 360 version? Oh wait, yeah.

Touche, EdgeCrusher. I admit that you're better at life than me. Your opinions are more valid. Everything you do is more awesome. You're just superior in every way, and I'm grateful that you could show me that. I'm an idiot for buying the only incarnation of the game that I could run at the only price it was available at. Clearly I should have spent $800 on a new computer in order to save $30 on a video game, despite the fact that I prefer a gamepad to mouse/keyboard anyway.

Oh, wait, I forgot. Liking a gamepad more is wrong. Mouse/keyboard is objectively superior, not a matter of preference at all. I'll have to remember that in the future.

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The problem is that they set a precedent. If they release a bunch of free stuff for TF2 post-release, and people go "awesome, look at all this stuff Valve did, thanks!" then people expect that kind of thing again in the future. The idea is that Valve says "hey people love this game because of all the extras we gave them, we should release extras for our other games too and they'll like those as well". So when that doesn't actually happen, people get annoyed.

Again, this is the epitome of being spoiled. I know you said you're not, but your statement says otherwise.

Ok, here's something you and Darksword need to understand. There is nothing wrong with expecting a company to treat you as an intelligent consumer who weighs his purchases carefully. As soon as a company sees it's fanbase as drooling consumers who will buy anything they can get their mits on, we're screwed!!! Quality control is chucked outta the window, and the advantage-taking begins!

First of all, that's a horrible case of paranoia, and unfortunately I can't counter that type of extremism with any sort of logic. I'm not saying that there's never any risk of that, only that I highly doubt that this is Valve's true intent.

You see, we don't expect things for free; we're not spoiled. But we also don't want to pay full price for what is fundementally the same experience.

Why have you and everyone else on that side of the conversation completely failed to address the parallels that have been drawn to Halo/Unreal/etc? Was Halo 2/UT2004 not also "fundamentally the same experience" as their respective prequels? NJ already said that new levels, a few new weapons, new characters, and tweaked gameplay do not count. Please, someone address this now.

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You should be grateful that you were treated better to begin with, and keep your mouth shut otherwise unless you're being treated WORSE than any other company. Here's a hint from a business owner; businesses don't like ungrateful consumers in this kind of situation. Valve is doing US a favor by giving us free things. Your ingratitude is not exactly making them WANT to keep doing that.

This is a stupid comment, and you need to stop being such a damned fool about this stuff. It's not about free content and being "ungrateful", it's just as simple as:

Native Jovian: "Hmmm... Valve supported the hell out of TF2 with loads of free stuff which I probably would have paid for, which is awesome. Maybe I should buy Left 4 Dead as well. After all, this IS a company that's well-known for their post-release product support!"

*A few months pass and not even as much as a bone tossed other than maps that probably should have been there to begin with and a "survival" mode that isn't exactly all that jazz, but it's all free, so no harm no foul.*

Native Jovian: "Hmmm, it seems that Valve isn't doing what they're usually known for, such as releasing an SDK which would allow me to create my own maps/scenarios with other intrepid modders. In fact in all honesty, this new mode kind of blows. And they're still supporting the hell out of that other game. Hmmm? What's this? They're coming out with a sequel already? While my interest is indeed piqued by a new version of this game, I can't help but feel a bit miffed at the fact that my expectations of great post-release support were dashed. Sad. I think I'll withhold purchase of this new title for the time being given my experience with the previous one."

If Valve doesn't wanna support L4D anymore and instead move on to L4D2(and to the best of my knowledge they haven't said this at all), that's fine. But you can't automatically think that people aren't going to be a LITTLE disappointed if that were the case given Valve's history of great post release content. If this mattered to me at all, I'd be just as pissed as well. There is nothing unreasonable about Native Jovian or anyone else being miffed.

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Jeez guys lay off NJ

Sorry to interrupt the valve-worship circle-jerk, but from a completely objective viewpoint, what they're doing with L4D is a pretty dick move. The game simply hasn't been around long enough for there to be any player-focused sequel. There can't possibly be too much added on, other than new characters, a few new maps and *OMFG CHAINSAW BRZZZEEEEE*. It will be the same gameplay system, same engine because you simply can't develop a completely new game in a year's time. What we're looking at is a stand-alone expansion with a 2 stamped on it instead of a subtitle.

Honestly, in days like this where developers can rework the entire client from patches/hotifxes, and add crazy amounts of stuff via DLC (which they can charge for and no one would care), trying to capitalize off of a full-price release for game everyone's already played is something i have a hard time seeing anyone agree with.

Time to go hide under the table.

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Sorry, but him overreacting about an announcement about a game and not reading anything else makes him a prime target to be called out on. If he had read the interviews he would see that they are gonna release a community map pack for L4D 1, plus redo the matchmaking system before L4D2 comes out. But nooooooooo, NJ jumps in guns ablazing saying that valve is evil wah wah. Plus he seems to want to bring up the fact that he thinks L4D in the first place was a rip off, no matter how he words it. If its that big of a concern for him and his wallet, he shouldn't even worry about L4D2 and go to playing a game he can afford, like TF2. Cheap ass.

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How is expressing this opinion "ungrateful"?

Because they don't have to give out free stuff to begin with. Yeah, it builds brand loyalty, but Valve was already making bank before TF2 free DLC and they would have made bank without it. Sort of like how Blizzard has released free updates to Diablo 2. They're definitely not getting a good ROI for updating a game that old, especially since so many people already have it, and the people that would care about the updates certainly already do. When people complain about devs who do nice things, it makes them NOT want to do those things again, because they don't have to anyway.

What we're looking at is a stand-alone expansion with a 2 stamped on it instead of a subtitle.

And... what was HL 2 Episode 2...? Where were the people complaining about that? Oops, the complaint everyone had was that it took too long.

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I was really disappointed by this announcement. It's much too soon for a full blown sequel to Left4Dead. I'd prefer a level pack DLC and I'm not really sold on the idea of melee weapons. Everything I've seen so far makes it just look like a reskin of L4D. I personally won't be buying this unless it's $30 or less, or if they at least include some sort of story this time around.

And where the hell is HL2 Ep 3? Episode 2 actually needs a sequel, and fans actually want it. Judging from my own opinion and general feedback I've seen so far, fans don't actually want a full blown sequel to L4D so soon.

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I do, and I'm a fan, so there goes your theory.

The team responsible for L4D is not the team responsible for HL2EP3 so work on this will detract nothing from the work on EP3, so don't worry about that.

I'd rather have a new game from Valve every year instead of every 4 years.

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I'm not saying everyone agrees with me, but there's been a lot of negative feedback about such an early announcement for L4D2. The theory is just a theory, you can't really prove it or disprove it with a couple of opinions. Honestly though, this looks like it should be an expansion and not a full blown new game. As a fan of the first L4D, I think it sucks that Valve will likely drop support for it so soon and many players will probably drop ship. Hopefully I'm wrong.

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Jeez guys lay off NJ

Sorry to interrupt the valve-worship circle-jerk, but from a completely objective viewpoint, what they're doing with L4D is a pretty dick move. The game simply hasn't been around long enough for there to be any player-focused sequel. There can't possibly be too much added on, other than new characters, a few new maps and *OMFG CHAINSAW BRZZZEEEEE*. It will be the same gameplay system, same engine because you simply can't develop a completely new game in a year's time. What we're looking at is a stand-alone expansion with a 2 stamped on it instead of a subtitle.

I really wish people would READ THE HANDS ON IMPRESSIONS that I linked. There's so much new stuff in L4D2. It's not an expansion, it's a sequel.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/01/left-4-dead-2-exclusive-rps-preview/

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