Heroes of Newerth

[Kidd Cabbage]

What I'm saying, though, is that there are heroes that are better, and that's what the heroes are designed to do - kill other heroes. I just got out of a game as Slither, where I went 14-1-20, and killed Arachna more times than I can count on one hand. Should he be banned, too? It all comes down to the skill and judgment of the people playing.

[Tensei]

I honestly personally don't mind playing/laning against Arachna that much. I know how to deal with her because I used to play her a lot so I know her weaknesses, effective range, etc.

It's just that I have noticed that on lower skill levels, picking arachna in and of itself gives a player an immense advantage over other, inexperienced players.

It's not even the ganks (because, really, new players won't be roaming with her anyway), it's just that she completely outlanes and repeatedly kills players of a lower skill level, to the point where it becomes gamebreaking.

Edit: Clef, Arachna is NOT like Akuma. As I understand it, Akuma was completely overpowered in any level of play, whereas in higher levels of HoN, a competent thunderbringer or soulstealer should be able to hold their own against her, and a succubus should even be able to outlane her (though Succubus is basically the counter to anything 1v1).

Arachna, like almost all agi carries, is squishy as hell at the start. A few well-placed/timed nukes is really all it takes, especially if you time them so that her carapace is on cooldown. As long as you keep succesfully runewhoring to replenish your mana, Arachna can be dealt with (speaking from personal experience when playing TB).

[Clefairy]

Don't get so wound up, Tensei. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

In other news, I'm beginning to have a decent grasp of how everything works. I have a playstyle, and certain heroes support it more than others. Doesn't help much when I'm forced into a bad situation(words cannot describe how much I hate playing Maliken), but it's a start.

Personally, I'm not a fan of zircon's metagaming. I can't speak for anyone else, but the quest to squeeze every last drop of functionality out of your picks in the hope of attaining victory is bad form in my opinion. Somewhere along the way, the mindset became one of winning and losing over simply having fun.

I'm aware the two of them aren't quite mutually exclusive, but still. Mixing the hardcore and casual crowds in any game tends to cause breakdown; why break what isn't broken to begin with?

[Bahamut]

Don't get so wound up, Tensei. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

In other news, I'm beginning to have a decent grasp of how everything works. I have a playstyle, and certain heroes support it more than others. Doesn't help much when I'm forced into a bad situation(words cannot describe how much I hate playing Maliken), but it's a start.

Personally, I'm not a fan of zircon's metagaming. I can't speak for anyone else, but the quest to squeeze every last drop of functionality out of your picks in the hope of attaining victory is bad form in my opinion. Somewhere along the way, the mindset became one of winning and losing over simply having fun.

I'm aware the two of them aren't quite mutually exclusive, but still. Mixing the hardcore and casual crowds in any game tends to cause breakdown; why break what isn't broken to begin with?

One can say that about any game, and unfortunately it all boils down to how you enjoy playing your games, and how flexible are you in reaching that point. Some people enjoy not having to think very much about it, while others revel in the exertion of the mind to win. This is not unique to DotA/HoN, and can be found with many of the heralded multiplayer games out there (TF2 included).

The real question is how do you intermingle them, or split them up.

[Dr. Tran!]

Okay, so, while I'm probably the last one who should be talking about this, I'd like to say that picking Arachna in AP is kind of a dick move in our inhouse games. She's EXTREMELY easy to be effective as, and considering many of the people playing are relatively new, they simply have no way of dealing with her slows+ ult and so they get killed repeatedly.

I wouldn't want to call for an outright ban, I just think it's better to think twice about picking her, for the sake of having a fun and balanced game for everyone.

Dude, I'm sorry, but you saying this is extremely hypocritical, when we had new people playing the other night you snagged TB and proceeded to wipe the floor with my team using it until we told you to hold back. And you argued about it every step of the way. Oh, and Bahamut, you had 1 'new' guy on your team, our team had 2.

Was picking Arachna a bad choice? If I had known she would've made people this mad, I wouldn't have picked her. I honestly picked it to screw around with Teranz/Lawler's heads more than anything else, but when I'm pushed...I push back. Bahamut kept stunning me the whole time, attacking me with madman's stealth move whenever it was off CD, so when I got my spider I lit into him. (He's great at harassing btw. I was sitting there just facepalming whenever he disappeared knowing what was about to happen.)

And as I said, if you don't want people using all heroes, either state so pre-game, or don't make it all pick. Can SD/RD have arachna in it? Yeah. It can. But it'd at least stop people from complaining about it as most of us more 'experienced' members wouldn't choose her in a RD/SD. Most of us.

Also, there are quite a few counters to Arachna...your team just decided to rush-pick and not wait until closing time to make it more 'fair' for everyone. Magebane, Slither, and a few other heroes plain counter Arachna, while the right item set on a few other heroes easily counter her as well. The problem with your team, other than the super-fast pick instead of discussing strategy, is that two of your players I know for a fact just focus on themselves instead of working as a team, unless the team is there with them or they're explicitly ordered to do something.

So anyway, before anyone else complains, let's just call here and now that Arachna is banned in all forms of play in in-house games, 'cause honestly she just causes too many bad feelings when we're just supposed to be having fun. If there are any other OP heroes, let's get them out of the way too, just to make it even.

[zircon]

I'm not sure we should be in the business of banning heroes. We need to teach our new players how to get better, that's all. Another option might be that we could have "serious" and casual games. For example if Wes, Bardic, Scythe, Donut, Celly, Honest etc. are on, we could say the game is serious, and you can use whatever hero. If we have like 3-4 really new guys (which we had yesterday in a match wes and I were in) then we could have a shortlist of banned heroes.

I think this probably makes sense, because obviously players like Antigrav, Tran and Tensei know how to play very well and counter hero picks, so guys like them should not have any restrictions.

[Hemophiliac]

Why am i not included in the serious players list?? lol

also bans is retarded, none of the heroes are outright broken.

what is happening is people are giving up easy early game deaths to heroes that are strong early game...those heroes get strong quick and roll everyone. if people try to survive longer and not give up quick early deaths then it won't be as bad.

every hero can be killed, and every hero can get kills.

and for heaven sakes, gank with your team

[Tensei]

Dude, I'm sorry, but you saying this is extremely hypocritical, when we had new people playing the other night you snagged TB and proceeded to wipe the floor with my team using it until we told you to hold back. And you argued about it every step of the way.

This was what? A 3v4 game? In the end even 2v4. I didn't counterpick you guys or anything. And of course I was bitching about having to 'hold back'. How the hell are you going to learn the game if you force people to go easy on you? I'm pretty sure it was SD as well and I got a choice of 2 melee heroes and TB.

Also, I kind of agree with zircon. When I got Arachna a few days ago in the 5v5 on watchtower, c3lly bitched initially as well, but I KNOW him and relyanCe are good enough to deal with her, and look how it turned out, it went on to be an awesome hour-long match that went completely back and forth til the very end. It really depends on who is playing and how the teams are balanced.

That said, I PERSONALLY don't mind playing with or against Arachna, I just notice that newer people tend to have lots of trouble dealing with her, to the point where it takes the fun out of the game. I don't think she should be outright banned, I just consider it kind of bad form to pick her when you know you're up against new players.

Edit: And about the winning and losing = fun. This doesn't hold true for me. Of course it's slightly more frustrating to get steamrolled than doing the steamrolling yourself, but ultimately I'd much rather play a balanced match that ends up taking an hour and losing it in the end than winning within the first 20 minutes.

[Clefairy]

This was what? A 3v4 game? In the end even 2v4. I didn't counterpick you guys or anything. And of course I was bitching about having to 'hold back'. How the hell are you going to learn the game if you force people to go easy on you?

Okay. Here's the thing about that.

The new people in that match were completely new. This was their first experience with the gametype, period. They were busy learning the UI, what an item was, how to equip it, how to get gold/exp, and so on.

They weren't ready to 'learn the game', as you put it, because they were still figuring out how the game worked.

It really isn't necessary to throw new players to the goddamn wolves and just let them deal with it for their first dozen games, or however long it takes for them to come out of that phase.

[Tensei]

I guess it's all about the proper mindset then. I knew right from the start that I wouldn't be some god at this game right away and my first bunch of games would involve lots of dying, not knowing what to buy, what skills to use etc.

And yes, I got killed over and over again by c3lly until I learned I shouldn't run into towers etc. Sure, it's frustrating, but it's not like I EXPECTED to do any better, and this definitely taught me WHY I shouldn't push my lane early and all that, because I would get punished for it right away.

By making people go easy on you, you only protract the period where you're a total noob and clueless about just about everything. Honestly, you can do without learning all items and skills right away, the first thing you need to learn is to just stay the hell back and play cautiously.

Bitching at new players for performing badly is obviously something I wouldn't do, but don't expect me to go easy on them anymore.

Edit: It's not like you all decide to go easy on new players in TF2, do you?

Also

Magebane, Slither, and a few other heroes plain counter Arachna

I can see Slither, but there's just NO WAY I would ever get outlaned by Magebane as Arachna (lol melee), unless the skill gap was incredibly huge.

[Hawkwing]

I've pretty much gotten a good grasp of the gameplay and some of the heroes. The items are where I'm lagging. Trying to learn where all the items are in the shops, and what they do. I spend too much time looking through shops trying to find something that fits my hero.

Any tips?

[zircon]

Try to plan your builds out BEFORE you play, and have a good handle on what items do what. For example, know that the tanking items include:

* Fortified Braclet - ~500 gold, Initiation

* Helm of the Black Legion - ~2200 gold, Protection

* Shaman's Headdress (vs. Magic) - ~2000 gold, Protection

* Shrunken Head (vs. Magic) - ~3900 gold, Protection

* Behemoth's Heart - ~5500 gold, Protection

Doing a little research on the HoN site definitely won't hurt Also, remember that you can buy items from the shop *anytime*, even though they'll go straight to your Stash, but this is helpful while you're running back to heal.

[BardicKnowledge]

Edit: It's not like you all decide to go easy on new players in TF2, do you?

I would if they'd never played an FPS before. Also, dying in TF2 doesn't outright hurt your team -- running forward, firing two rockets and dying at least creates the distraction of two rockets -- it's not like the other team gets a free uber when you die.

Try to plan your builds out BEFORE you play, and have a good handle on what items do what. For example, know that the tanking items include:

* Fortified Braclet - ~500 gold, Initiation

* Helm of the Black Legion - ~2200 gold, Protection

* Shaman's Headdress (vs. Magic) - ~2000 gold, Protection

* Shrunken Head (vs. Magic) - ~3900 gold, Protection

* Behemoth's Heart - ~5500 gold, Protection

Doing a little research on the HoN site definitely won't hurt Also, remember that you can buy items from the shop *anytime*, even though they'll go straight to your Stash, but this is helpful while you're running back to heal.

This will largely go away next patch, as #hondev spent their afternoon helping the S2 staff create the "Recommended Items" shop section -- 12 items for each hero that you can get and be decent (if not the best). Said shop includes minor totems and healing consumables for EVERY character -- there's a reason most of us get them early on.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Man, I'm getting really frustrated with my PSR. The first bit I played, I was rusty, so my PSR fell from 1500 to 1400. Since then, I've been trying to get back above 1500, but I've been teaching some friends how to play, which has been making it much more difficult, and the games that I have been playing by myself, I've had the worst luck, despite playing well, personally. Last game, for instance, as Nymph, I had a Champion of Newerth streak, saved more heroes than I can count, took towers by myself, and we still lost... and that game brought me below 1300. I'm disgusted looking at my score.

[Tensei]

In my experience, PSR is a very very bad indicator of skill. I'm personally around 1200-1300 because I play tons of inhouse games with new people which we end up losing even if I perform well.

[anosou]

This will largely go away next patch, as #hondev spent their afternoon helping the S2 staff create the "Recommended Items" shop section -- 12 items for each hero that you can get and be decent (if not the best). Said shop includes minor totems and healing consumables for EVERY character -- there's a reason most of us get them early on.

Basically this. Was good being around the channel then

[TehDonut]

Yeah and my PSR is like 1670 or so, but I suck. =(

yeah but seriously, dont stress over PSR it means nothing. Especially if we're only playing within the community. Sometimes pubs have like ONLY PSR >1500 ALLOWED IN GAME

but really....it means nothing. You can't put an INDIVIDUAL RATING on a TEAM GAME

[Dhsu]

I think I'm going to sign up at HoNWiki and start filling in the glossary, because terms like "blink" and "nuke" and "jungling" are not things you just figure out from reading the newbie guide, and yet everyone seems to expect you to know exactly what they're talking about when they use them. I mean seriously, wtf is "dusting."

[LuketheXjesse]

I've been wondering for the longest time what nuking is.

[Tensei]

A nuke is basically every spell that does damage in one chunk. If it's over time, like Hellbringer's Blood Boil, it's called a DoT (Damage over Time).

[LuketheXjesse]

Since I'm here, would you mind going ahead and giving me a list of HoN terminology? I couldn't really find anything like that on the wiki. I'd appreciate it.

[zircon]

Lane = The path where the towers are and your creeps move.

Laning = Going to a lane to kill creeps.

Ganking = Killing an enemy hero, usually with an ambush. Typically, you gank a hero that is laning.

Team Fight = A planned conflict between both sides, usually with all heroes. After level 12 or so, most fights in the game are team fights.

Farming = Killing lots of creeps to get experience and gold. Basically everybody in the game is farming until about level 6-7 when the ganking begins. After the initial "laning" phase, some people may call that they're farming - this means that they are focusing on building up their character, NOT pushing a lane or trying to gank. Some characters must farm to become powerful.

"B" / Back = Retreat back toward your towers/base.

Push = Move with your creep wave up a lane and try to destroy a tower.

Top / Bot / Mid = Top, bottom and middle lanes.

"Miss" / MIA = An enemy hero that was previously fighting in a lane can no longer be seen. This means the enemy hero is either attempting a gank, or they are going back to heal. You MUST call missing if a hero in your lane is no longer visible, so that other people on your team can be cautious.

"Re" = Returned, the enemy hero that was missing is now back where they would be expected.

TP / Stone = Homecoming stone, a 135 gold item that teleports you to any friendly structure.

Deny = To kill your own creep or tower. By denying a creep, you deprive the enemy of experience and gold. If you deny a tower, you deny them of a lot of gold. You can only deny when your creeps are about 25% health or lower (press A first to turn on all targeting, then left click on your creep.) Towers must have VERY low HP, about 200 or so.

Last hit = You get experience as long as you are within about 3/4 of a screen of where an enemy creep/hero gets killed. However, you get gold and EXTRA experience if you land the last hit. Thus, it is often better to stop auto attacking (either by moving around or pressing "H") until your target creep has very little health, then swoop in for a last hit (or a deny!)

Disable = An ability that stuns or silences the target, preventing them from moving, casting spells, etc. Disables are very powerful in this game.

[Bahamut]

I think I'm going to sign up at HoNWiki and start filling in the glossary, because terms like "blink" and "nuke" and "jungling" are not things you just figure out from reading the newbie guide, and yet everyone seems to expect you to know exactly what they're talking about when they use them. I mean seriously, wtf is "dusting."

I actually never heard the term jungling until people used it in-house, and I sort of figured out that it meant killing neutral creeps (ala wc3).

blink = a teleport skill for those who dont know.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Especially if we're only playing within the community.

I haven't played one in-house game since I started HoN.

[LuketheXjesse]

Thanks, Zircon.