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I haven't seen enough of Panda to form a strong opinion on him, but I have to say that so far he DOES look quite solid - at least B tier. His sheer damage is pretty high between his Flurry and ultimate, but what's really nice is his Flick -> Stun -> Flurry combo, not to mention Flick disables pretty much ANYONE, even magic immunes! Haven't played the new Magebane, but HAVE played the new Dark Lady and she is much, much better. Again she's up to a B if not significantly higher. Her mana problems are all but gone, which is really what was holding her back before.

Also... vote on my hero!

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=28395

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Backdooring: I'm surprised at you Tensei. This wasn't the first time I've done it in a game with you guys. I creep skip all the time if able. I expected better of you. :|

Also in that particular game we stood absolutely no chance unless I managed to take out a lane by myself cause 1) Scout is fail no matter how well I did and 2) a 0-14 Magmus with zero communication is asking me to be a miracle worker. Which I am not.

So randoms totally screwed me today I was laughing pretty hard but Katsie was quite displeased with me. She's not a fan of me not playing to my usual level.

Katsie&Me: We need a carry. I hope you random a carry.

:randoms Nymphora:

:repicks into Behemoth:

Next game:

:randoms Scout:

It was so much fail but it was hilarious.

Edit:

Oh and lastly, if you guys are going to continue to consistently pick anti-carry heroes with long disables such as Succubus, Devourer, or Panda, or just a bunch of semi-carries yourselves then I'd really appreciate it if you actually balanced the teams instead of overloading me with the weaker players. The best counter to long single target disables and strong mid-range heroes is teamwork. I can't do such things when the only other person who can work with me on an intelligible level is Katsie and while she plays great support she doesn't enjoy playing full support and I don't blame her.

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Oh and lastly, if you guys are going to continue to consistently pick anti-carry heroes with long disables such as Succubus, Devourer, or Panda, or just a bunch of semi-carries yourselves then I'd really appreciate it if you actually balanced the teams instead of overloading me with the weaker players. The best counter to long single target disables and strong mid-range heroes is teamwork. I can't do such things when the only other person who can work with me on an intelligible level is Katsie and while she plays great support she doesn't enjoy playing full support and I don't blame her.

I think their point in loading you with the weaker players *is* to balance it.

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Backdooring: I'm surprised at you Tensei. This wasn't the first time I've done it in a game with you guys. I creep skip all the time if able. I expected better of you. :|

Also in that particular game we stood absolutely no chance unless I managed to take out a lane by myself cause 1) Scout is fail no matter how well I did and 2) a 0-14 Magmus with zero communication is asking me to be a miracle worker. Which I am not.

So randoms totally screwed me today I was laughing pretty hard but Katsie was quite displeased with me. She's not a fan of me not playing to my usual level.

Katsie&Me: We need a carry. I hope you random a carry.

:randoms Nymphora:

:repicks into Behemoth:

Next game:

:randoms Scout:

It was so much fail but it was hilarious.

Edit:

Oh and lastly, if you guys are going to continue to consistently pick anti-carry heroes with long disables such as Succubus, Devourer, or Panda, or just a bunch of semi-carries yourselves then I'd really appreciate it if you actually balanced the teams instead of overloading me with the weaker players. The best counter to long single target disables and strong mid-range heroes is teamwork. I can't do such things when the only other person who can work with me on an intelligible level is Katsie and while she plays great support she doesn't enjoy playing full support and I don't blame her.

Yeah I don't appreciate backdooring in inhouse games, though I guess it's fair game in competitive scrims since it's obviously not banned. I consider it kind of the same like picking a typical 'noob-stomp' hero (arachna, bloodhunter) when there's a bunch of new people on the enemy team.

To be honest, I DID think the teams were balanced, especially the game where you randomed scout. I mean, it took a good 50-60 minutes for us to finally win, and even then it went back and forth quite a lot of the time. It definitely wasn't a roll in favor of either side, which is good IMO. It was a match I wouldn't have minded losing.

Also, I don't remember our team having specific anti-carries in that game? We had Pestilence, Valkyrie, Demented Shaman, Wildsoul and one that I can't remember (Defiler maybe?) vs Arachna, Scout, Nymphora, Kraken and Magmus iirc. So we were very heavy on hard carries and semi-carries, but we didn't have any of the heroes you mentioned.

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Eternal, I wouldn't worry about the teams being imbalanced too much. It happens all the time, and that's because we really haven't found a way to 'truly' balance the teams. It's a problem we've been facing for awhile.

The moment someone comes up with a 'good' way to balance the teams, let us know. Until then, all we have is "Do the teams look balanced?" "Eh...we should be ok." -game start, one side gets stomped- "Teams definitely weren't fair" and back and forth.

Though I think a good way to start is for one of the 'better' players to come up with a list, meaning no offense of course, going from the 'better' players on top, to the 'worse' players on bottom (Whether they're slow to react, new to the game, or whatever), and go from there.

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Okay Hemophiliac, seriously. When I play a hero, you can assume I have at least a basic understanding of item builds and how to adapt them to the enemy team. You don't need to point out that every time you play madman your team has won. Nor do you need to constantly imply that I should have let you play him.

And you CERTAINLY don't need to call me out on my item choices, especially if you're going to make suggestions like "Get Slash instead of BKB" when the enemy team has ~4 AoE disables.

Complaining about bad players/feeders is one thing, complaining when I haven't even died yet and am succesfully ganking is just completely uncalled for.

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Backdooring: I'm surprised at you Tensei. This wasn't the first time I've done it in a game with you guys. I creep skip all the time if able. I expected better of you. :|

Also in that particular game we stood absolutely no chance unless I managed to take out a lane by myself cause 1) Scout is fail no matter how well I did and 2) a 0-14 Magmus with zero communication is asking me to be a miracle worker. Which I am not.

Edit:

Oh and lastly, if you guys are going to continue to consistently pick anti-carry heroes with long disables such as Succubus, Devourer, or Panda, or just a bunch of semi-carries yourselves then I'd really appreciate it if you actually balanced the teams instead of overloading me with the weaker players. The best counter to long single target disables and strong mid-range heroes is teamwork. I can't do such things when the only other person who can work with me on an intelligible level is Katsie and while she plays great support she doesn't enjoy playing full support and I don't blame her.

Scout's AoE silence isn't bad -- I'm surprised you didn't use that more in teamfights. I'd agree that the teams were as balanced as they were going to get given the players that match also...if Tensei or I would have traded for your magmus (forget who it was), your team would have rolled. Any match where both teams are down to base towers is a decent one IMO. That being said, if you cancel out you, Katsie, me, and Tensei, our remaining 3 played better than yours. That isn't _always_ the case with those guys. Most of the remaining players have really variable performance...a couple days ago, LuketheX was completely owning with his tempest, for example.

On backdooring -- IMO it's just fine, as long as people wait to do it until near the end, when it becomes neccessary. I'd complain if a Wildsoul or Tempest used summons to tank two towers with their whole team at level 5...but even then, you should be able to stop it (which we did).

Okay Hemophiliac, seriously. When I play a hero, you can assume I have at least a basic understanding of item builds and how to adapt them to the enemy team. You don't need to point out that every time you play madman your team has won. Nor do you need to constantly imply that I should have let you play him.

My general rule is that I will warn people if they're sticking their noses out too far, and ask for ganks if I'm a sidelane...but I don't give item or skill advice unless someone asks me for it. Otherwise it comes off as "superior" and annoying.

Edit: One more topic for discussion, especially for the newer people here. We realize that many of you guys are not capable of filling whatever role a team needs you to fill. Your job therefore is to tell us what you're good at BEFORE everyone else picks heroes. Say "I really need to play support" or "I really like early gankers". Those of us who are more versatile can work around that....but ONLY if we know in advance.

Similarly, certain items (nullfire blade, geometer's bane, puzzlebox, astrolabe) are excellent on some characters, but only if you have the awareness needed to use them. If you can't remember to trigger nullfire and geo every time that you should, don't be afraid to say "I'm not good at using them" and get Hack&Slash instead. Better you get something that helps you, and therefore helps the team.

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I think their point in loading you with the weaker players *is* to balance it.

Yes I realize. I'm just mentioning it might be overkill cause the only time where I'm truly overpowering in our inhouses is when I choose a power hero which I don't always do.

Rather than a hero tier list, make a player tier list!

I always make mental lists like this. I don't know everyone in the clan yet and I don't want to step on toes and be the one to do it.

@Tensei: All of those comments were not for that specific game. Just a trend I'm noticing. Also while your build wasn't right I have to say that Hemo's was even further off. Next time we play I'll show you my new Madman build since the old one died off with the item changes.

@Bardic: Nobody was buying wards. I had all four eyes on key spots of the map. This is how I managed to farm so hard and make sure I didn't die and outlevel you guys early. I couldn't afford the luxury of silence in team fights. Not that it mattered though. I had BKB and was farmed to all hell.

In defense of your balance, Katsie and I can roll any combination of two of you guys in [OCR]. She is seriously like the ultimate support player. Next time when she isn't being overly pissed off (other things were going on) you should learn a thing or two from her. She knows every pull and is great at letting the carry finish all the kills. So yeah your 3 definitely outplayed our 3.

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That Languish fed 0-14 as MAGMUS where they were originally complaining that they had Luke when he did more than fine that game only going maybe 0-3 before I got super fed and just gave him hell.

Shit happens, I still think the teams were balanced from what I heard. I mean, all other times the team with you have bulldozed the other team..

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@Tensei: All of those comments were not for that specific game. Just a trend I'm noticing. Also while your build wasn't right I have to say that Hemo's was even further off. Next time we play I'll show you my new Madman build since the old one died off with the item changes.

Well, inform me then, because the way I figure, bkb is a very solid item on a lot of the agi melee DPS (semi)carries, especially if you're facing lots of disables, as was the case yesterday. I know madman already is semi-protected from getting chainstunned before the team battle has even started because of stalk, but I also think that if you carry with him, you're going to want to be in the thick of things so you can actually fulfill your role as DPS.

Obviously if you're going to gear him more towards ganking, something like shieldbreaker is probably superior, but I guess it just comes down to how you play him.

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In defense of your balance, Katsie and I can roll any combination of two of you guys in [OCR]. She is seriously like the ultimate support player. Next time when she isn't being overly pissed off (other things were going on) you should learn a thing or two from her. She knows every pull and is great at letting the carry finish all the kills. So yeah your 3 definitely outplayed our 3.

I think that on a good day, zircon and I would be enjoyable opponents for you two -- that being said, the game in question was decided much more by the other 3 on both teams than any of the actions of us 4, which is all I meant in the comparison. I do realize that you and katsie are better players overall than the rest of us...and that's just fine -- we'll get there. <3

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Well, inform me then, because the way I figure, bkb is a very solid item on a lot of the agi melee DPS (semi)carries, especially if you're facing lots of disables, as was the case yesterday. I know madman already is semi-protected from getting chainstunned before the team battle has even started because of stalk, but I also think that if you carry with him, you're going to want to be in the thick of things so you can actually fulfill your role as DPS.

Obviously if you're going to gear him more towards ganking, something like shieldbreaker is probably superior, but I guess it just comes down to how you play him.

He can be a semi-carry super stunner if you go something like BKB. For an actual carry build. It would be Battlefury to reduce mana issues while giving easy farm then Wingbow then some the precursor to Satanic. Then Heart then finish Satanic then if you get to this point kill Roshan and then buy a Doombringer. It used to be Bloodstone cause you'd just rack up kills then be casting forever and you could kill every wave with Stalk - Roll - Stalk wih your inf mana. With bloodstone's change you have to be more conservative with mana when you're the carry because you have to be ready to TP then fight at the drop of a hat. This is why I dislike arguments like "Dark Lady can take out an entire creep wave with Dark Blades then her Blink" cause that's a waste of mana when you could just not be lazy and last hit those creeps yourself.

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He can be a semi-carry super stunner if you go something like BKB. For an actual carry build. It would be Battlefury to reduce mana issues while giving easy farm then Wingbow then some the precursor to Satanic. Then Heart then finish Satanic then if you get to this point kill Roshan and then buy a Doombringer. It used to be Bloodstone cause you'd just rack up kills then be casting forever and you could kill every wave with Stalk - Roll - Stalk wih your inf mana. With bloodstone's change you have to be more conservative with mana when you're the carry because you have to be ready to TP then fight at the drop of a hat. This is why I dislike arguments like "Dark Lady can take out an entire creep wave with Dark Blades then her Blink" cause that's a waste of mana when you could just not be lazy and last hit those creeps yourself.

I have to disagree with the "Don't use blink+DB, just lasthit". No matter how good you are at last-hitting, getting the lasthit on every single creep in midgame by merit of auto-attacks only will INEVITABLY be a lot slower than blink+DB or stalk+barrel roll. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of outfarming your opponents. Those few seconds you gain by instagibbing a creep wave compared to lasthitting it with auto-attacks will start adding up as you farm more.

I have never gotten bfury on madman for this reason, he can farm very well with his stalk + barrel roll already. In midgame you will have probably run out of mana after doing this combo on 3-4 creep waves, but by that time the lane would be pushed far enough that it becomes dangerous to keep on farming from it, so in my experience it works out well enough.

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