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rofl

You should add "While underwater, all units experience the 'drowning' status effect, which drains 100HP every second. Zephyr is not affected."

Well, I think if it drained health, too, then it would be way too overpowered. I'm worried enough that it already is overpowered!

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It's not that I think you should base your tier list on me it's just that you don't see some heroes for what they can really do. Arma was a great example of this and I think I demonstrated it pretty well. Other heroes like Ophelia I'll be hard pressed to prove without a solid team backing me.

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So one of the more notorious/famous residents of the official HoN forums, named Glorify/Angel, has posted one of his own tier lists. He's a competitive player as I understand it so it might be interesting to look at it from his perspective.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=26774

I especially like how he says Pestilence is the best carry. (Because he really is <3)

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Interesting tier list they have, a lot of it mirrors ours but they have some weird decisions (Magebane / Puppet aren't really garbage, for example, and Defiler is "bad"?)

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You have to remember that this is for competitive play. So a lot of these heroes (like Arma) who can be pretty great will never get off the ground. This is why Magebane is dogshit. Also this is why Defiler is bad. With the additional movespeed from her passive removed she can no longer be effective early/mid game before she is farmed. With the nerf to both Bloodstone and Heart her tanking ability is now nonexistent. She used to be God Tier before these changes. Every game had her and those other three banned.

Also while I don't play him well anymore cause of the changes done to him I still feel Soul Reaper is a big asset on a good team.

Edit:

Also notice how many heroes have been shifted around due to the Bloodstone/Heart changes. This is likely to change yet again once Heart gets its latest update.

And lastly to give you my perspective on what goals I sometimes relate in a game where I want you guys to do certain things: My main competitive play style has always been Turtleway though I am quite capable of the other three. This is mostly because I myself am a good carry or semi-carry (he calls them pseudo-carry) player so my teams always gravitated to it.

Oh right, derp. I actually do agree with a lot of what he says. One or two heroes I would shift but on the whole he's got the right ideas.

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Compared zircon's tierlist to Glorify's:

Biggest difference: Magebane, three tiers separate. He's being reworked anyway, so it's irrelevant.

Puppet Master is tier 4 on zirc's list and 6 on Glorify's -- the same disparity exists with a number of heroes: Scout, Moon Queen, Predator (all 3/5), Defiler, Swiftblade (2/4).

Other than those, everybody is within one tier comparing the two lists. Not bad for some relatively new players to the game, assuming that Glorify has a good idea of what he's talking about.

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I definitely agree with where he put defiler. Her core items, phaseboots, sac stone and behemoth's heart have all been significantly nerfed in the most recent version, to the point where she can no longer be the monster INT tank carry she used to be. She's still solid with her ult but she can't solo the entire enemy team anymore, even with all those items.

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I'd like to make some modifications to my tier list (not based on anyone else's list, but again, just our own experiences.)

Definitions:

God Tier - Clearly overpowered, weaknesses are too few compared to strengths, overwhelming in more situations than not.

S - Strengths outweigh weaknesses, numerous big advantages. You want these guys on your team.

A - Very good hero all-around. Balanced strengths and weaknesses.

B - Solid hero, but does not have a truly strong advantage.

C - Can be powerful if used properly, but outshined by the upper tiers. Not enough useful skills, too situational.

D - Underpowered for too much of the game, outshined by many characters, easily countered, but still potenteially usable.

Garbage - No or very little reason to use this hero, needs buffs. Too weak in too many situations.

God Tier - Magmus, Jeraziah, Tempest

S - Madman, Behemoth, Swiftblade, Defiler, Thunderbringer, Soulstealer, Demented Shaman, Arachna, Plague Rider, Succubus, Hellbringer, Pharaoh

A - Pollywog Priest, Andromeda, Torturer, Electrician, Blood Hunter, Pyromancer, Kraken, Slither, Scout, Moon Queen, Wildsoul, Magebane, Predator, Legionnaire

B - Night Hound, Valkyrie, Puppet Master, Voodoo Jester, Hammerstorm, Zephyr, War Beast, Pestilence, Glacius, Nymphora, Soul Reaper

C - Armadon, Accursed, Wretched Hag, Blacksmith, Devourer

D - Chronos, Keeper of the Forest, The Dark Lady

Not ranked: Malilken, Ophelia

CHANGES:

Legionnaire: S -> A. I am liking this hero less and less. He is basically a one-trick pony; blink and taunt. Execute is fine but you're stealing gold from people that could use it better. There's no point in attacking Legionnaire since his auto-attack damage is pitiful and he has no other disables besides Taunt (which he probably blew at the beginning of the fight.) A good initiator, but not S-tier.

Glacius: A -> B. His mana aura is good, but there are more and more ways to recover mana, and he is simply too frail and weak to provide constant overall utility. There are better support picks.

Hellbringer: B -> S. I way underestimated this guy. He is an excellent harasser with an amazing snare and killer magic debuff which basically makes him heal to full at any time. But while these abilities alone would be solid, having a huge AOE ranged stun that also unleashed what is essentially a 6th hero (and possibly 7th) makes him an amazing initiator, counter-initiator and pusher too.

Nymphora: A -> B. On paper, she seems awesome, and when you play as her you almost feel overpowered by her amazing ability to push, heal and recover mana indefinitely. However, her damage output is poor, her stun takes too long to execute, and she is extremely frail. A solid support character, but still, there are better choices.

Pharaoh: A -> S. Another guy I underestimated. Pharaoh is a fantastic hero. He is versatile in basically every situation. He can roam, gank, push, initiate and counter-initiate. He's also surprisingly durable. His late-game utility begins to diminish as his damage abilities don't scale, but he's still a strong tank and Ult / Mummies / Hellfire is still a damaging and debilitating combo anytime in the game.

Devourer: B -> C. He sucks early game because he has no abilities to help him lane. His main damaging ability (Decay) hurts him too, and it takes some good farming to reduce that damage. Lategame the HP of enemies begins to outstrip his damage, and other people getting magic armor can also nullify the advantage presented by Decay. Long story short.. he takes too long to ramp up, and by the time he can really shine, he's already being outmatched.

Soul Reaper: B. He's a fragile character with no carrying ability but whose ultimate steals kills from your actual carries. He has only one active otherwise. His mana regen ability becomes inconsequential later and has no effect in teamfights, and while his aura is decent, it's still only about 30 damage per second on even the most buff tanks. For most of the game it is much weaker than that. Plus, you can't take it early or it will help push your lane more. His saving grace is his AOE heal/nuke, but would you rather have that or a character like Demented Shaman or Jeraziah, both of whom can also AOE heal and damage but provide superior support capability?

Best Nukers: Pyromancer, Defiler, Thunderbringer

Best Initiators: Tempest, Behemoth, Kraken, Legionnaire, Hellbringer

Best Support: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Demented Shaman, Pharaoh

Best Tanks: Jeraziah, Accursed, Armadon, Electrician

Best Early Gankers: Slither, Arachna, Electrician

Best All-Around Gankers: Arachna, Voodoo Jester, Pharaoh, Scout

Best Disablers: Pollywog Priest, Succubus

Best "Press R To Win" Heroes: Tempest, Moon Queen, Magmus, Plague Rider

Best Carries: Soulstealer, Madman, Swiftblade, Chronos (lategame only, very hard to play)

So if your team says "we need another tank", you want to play Jeraziah, Accursed, Armadon or Electrician. If they said we need a carry.. well, you get the picture.

Tiers got a lot tighter after the last patch, which buffed Kraken, Scout and Magebane, formerly low-tier heroes. As always, post your thoughts. I'm not sure if all those A heroes are really A.

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Looking at zirc's new list, I think that swiftblade and magebane should both drop a tier, while Valkyrie should move up one tier. Swift is probably the best firstblood char in the game -- but his utility is relatively limited in teamfights, and eventually (around 15) his whirl does LESS damage than his regular attack.

Magebane will deserve the spot after the next patch (he's being redone), but currently his high movespeed is the only thing keeping him relevant.

Valk needs to be one tier higher because not only is she relevant for the entire game (rare among the cast), she excels at the vast majority of it. Her leap ability scales very well, giving your entire team the equivalent of Slash's extra damage and movespeed for free...and her arrow allows her to help gank from half a lane away.

Finally, I can't decide which tier they belong in (probably B), but both Zephyr and Wildsoul should be in the same tier group, as their playstyle is VERY similar -- farm Mock ASAP, then destroy the team before any high DPS carries get their stuff.

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