BardicKnowledge Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Eventually, people that rely on auto-attacking / last-hitting to farm will be behind someone that uses spells and abilities. The only exception I can think of is someone with Mock (radiance), because they effectively have an AOE spell in constant play. Example: Valkyrie and Defiler both should be utilizing their AOE spells to farm creep waves once the laning phase is over (between levels 7 and 10). Not only can they take out very large creep waves (think 4 "waves" worth pushing your tower) quickly this way, but they avoid being ganked by staying forward for as little time as possible. The time spent healing your mana at the fountain is mitigated by the fact that you'll be returning there to purchase your gear anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Sorry to everyone I left hanging last night! Something urgent came up while I was dead...I'm sure it wasn't too big a loss though, I'm a terrible Jeraziah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemophiliac Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 oh if you guys haven't played with Panda yet, try him out...he's a ton of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I'll try panda tomorrow -- his ability to kill channeling things is supposed to be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 You have an innate crit with a practically forever lasting super attack speed. Why even bother wasting the mana on farming when it will save you at most two seconds when two full casts could easily decide a team fight instead. To use spells to farm with almost any hero when they have an equally fast alternative is wasteful. Soulstealer can double nuke a wave but has no other means so it's okay on him. You don't see professionals blowing their load on every single wave for this very reason. Sure you could argue that you want it to happen faster, but then you're wasting mana and going deeper into enemy territory. You want to get out faster, fine, but well placed wards and simple self awareness will keep you alive. I'm saying it's sub optimal and shouldn't be a reason. And what does BKB give you other than a few seconds of magic invuln? Next to no HP and that's it. Cleave will give you damage, mana, and another aspect to your damage in that you can hit multiple people. It's just like my getting BKB just to stop your Pest ult from affecting me. It was a necessity yes but a total and utter waste of time. BKB is best on heroes that need the time to deliver something like Tempest or Magmus, or even Soulstealer when your opponents are good enough to stop his ult before it goes off. Also it's great for chasing heroes who have to run straight at their targets. Pest and Hammer are the best users in this regard. Getting BKB on Madman is akin to getting a BKB on Mercurial (you will meet her as Sand Demon or w/e). It's not worth the gold and farming some kind of damage is going to do you more good. Edit: Bardic, your examples go under the same heading as Soulstealer. They have no reason to have cleave (cause it doesn't work) or radiance (cause it's just bad on them) and as such they have no better alternative so that's what they do. Thunderclaw doesn't count because it is unreliable. Also, Tensei, while yes you do head back anyway with your method with mine you can easily just teleport to another lane which is now open and start farming there with zero interruption. Then pick up another teleport at a side shop and continuously farm. This is how I stay so ahead of you guys in levels. I spend next to no time in the fountain when I don't have to and that's the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Feel free to make fun of me for being loln00b (because I am) but getting Doombringer without a BKB just seems like a recipe for disaster. D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Also, Tensei, while yes you do head back anyway with your method with mine you can easily just teleport to another lane which is now open and start farming there with zero interruption. Then pick up another teleport at a side shop and continuously farm. This is how I stay so ahead of you guys in levels. I spend next to no time in the fountain when I don't have to and that's the key. Wow, I never really thought about it that way. Good advice... I guess I need to use side shops and be a little more cautious about taking creep damage. By the way, I would like to formally propose a few rules that perhaps we all can adhere to for INHOUSE games, unless we agree to something otherwise. Please post and let me know your thoughts. * Jeraziah is banned. * Tempest is banned on Caldavar/Watchtower. * Arachna and Succubus are banned on Darkwood Vale. Why these rules? Jeraziah is an extremely powerful character that I think is too dominant. He has incredible farming ability, team support spells, healing, true damage, magic immune... etc. He is simply a better pick than basically any other support, IMO. Tempest is also considered God tier on every tier list I have seen, and if any character absolutely HAS to be banned, it is probably him. However, in 3v3 he is not quite as good, and his jungling ability is mitigated, so I'm fine with him on that map. Lastly, Arachna and Succubus are characters that essentially get a free kill every time their ult is up if they're facing a solo character. Even though I've played against these heroes (and played AS them) many times, I really have to conclude that in a 3v3 setting they are simply too powerful because your team is smaller and more split up; the only counters to those heroes is to have the rest of your team there, which won't happen on 3v3 much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Feel free to make fun of me for being loln00b (because I am) but getting Doombringer without a BKB just seems like a recipe for disaster. D: Two things: 1. I mentioned killing Roshan/Kongor. This will give you a free life. 2. I wasn't serious with this part of the build. In an actual game I'd probably buy the new Int blade as enemy armor would be pretty high and this would bypass it significantly. (Or just any other powerful item really.) Most competitive games end long before I even look to finish Satanic (or even the Heart) Zirc: I'm fine with the Jeraziah ban. Even a monkey can cast his ult to win a team fight. He has good counters in that Nullfire and Electrician dominate his spells but these are both hard for beginners to use. I approve of this. Tempest is iffy... I don't think any of you have yet to show me you understand the jungle well enough to truly make him a threat. Also not enough of you are really power soloers to make this a huge issue. We use this ban in my upper level inhouses but if you want it then I don't see why not. Arachna ban is stupid. Same way of beating her is the same way you beat a Blood Hunter. Buy a teleport at level 4 and when she tries to kill you you just teleport away. She is strong, yes, but she isn't so bad. Succubus? I'll agree on this one. She's just annoying being able to disable the entire enemy team at once by herself. Sleep one dude. -damage on the enemy carry. Then ult and kill the last one. Along your logic I think you should have added Blood Hunter, Panda, Luna, etc. But I disagree with being able to own someone solo as being a problem. Succubus is a special case because she is just that good but the others not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidd Cabbage Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Eh, I'm not much for the business of banning heroes. Every hero has counters, and every hero can be outdone by someone else playing any other hero. Like I've been saying, it's at least 75% player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Well yeah that's what he's saying. Most of [OCR] aren't capable of being able to play Electrician to counter a Jeraziah pick or to make and use properly a Diffusal Blade. Most of them also do not keep a teleport on them at all times (Btw you really should. Shame on you if you don't. No lie.). Even if they do most won't have a level enough head to activate it fast enough. The only bans he's mentioned that have even seen the light of day in other circles that I have seen I've commented on already. Succubus is too good in a small setting. Tempest opens up a second solo and forces the enemy to either waste time trying to gank him in the jungle or accept the fact that he will inevitably win more than a few team fights by himself. Edit: Wow, I never really thought about it that way. Good advice... I guess I need to use side shops and be a little more cautious about taking creep damage. Also is probably good to mention that I can also micro the courier to have the items I would have gone back to buy normally deliver them to the lane I was going to just teleport to. If it was safe enough for me to switch to then it's safe enough for the courier to give me my items (also there are a ton of hiding spots if shit happens, which it will sometimes) so I still get my items too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemophiliac Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Eh, I'm not much for the business of banning heroes. Every hero has counters, and every hero can be outdone by someone else playing any other hero. Like I've been saying, it's at least 75% player. i support this thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clefairy Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Yeah, but it goes the other way too. Since: Most of [OCR] aren't capable of being able to play _______ to counter a _______ pick. In a month or two, when everybody has a better idea of what they're doing in general, we can come back to it. But for now, if it stomps noobs, it's banned imo. On a semi-related topic, this game needs matchmaking badly. Finding people of equal skill level is basically a crap shoot; sure, you get better by playing better people, but I'm not in the business of getting better yet. I just want to get a better feel for the game and be at least functional with most of the heroes. All this competitive ubermicro hibbity-jibbity can wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 But the counters to Arachna and Succubus are much harder to come by in 3v3. Yes, if you have full health when Arachna hits you with the ult, you MIGHT be able to escape. But at level 6, many players are in the midst of laning, with lower mana and HP. A single spider plus Arachna's auto attacks will kill almost any character at that level, and for a good time thereafter, especially as she gets more and more farmed. "But just hit the spider." With what team? In a 3v3 that is much harder to coordinate. Likewise with Succubus. I don't think Panda and MQ are as big of an issue because Panda is not ranged, and MQ's ult is messed up by creeps. Sure, if you run into her in the forest you might be in trouble, but Arachna can kill almost anyone in a lane no problem, even with the creeps around. Furthermore, she has debilitating slows and magic immunity. MQ has her ult and the occasional moonbeam... that's it. No other defense. If you don't believe me that Arachna is OP, I'm going to pick her intentionally in the next few AP games just to show you how rough she is. Oh yeah, and while I've heard complaints about Thunderbringer, I REALLY don't think he is ban material. First of all, a 400 gold item reduces the effectiveness of everything he throws at you by about 15-20%, and finishing the recipe will cut his damage in half. He doesn't scale into lategame, he's fragile and his attack range is garbage. A great nuker, sure, but I would rather lane against him than Arachna anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I approve of the Jereziah ban, as his ult is stupid. Succubus is just as dumb in 3v3 -- especially since it's easy for her to take the solo lane every time. Arachna isn't as bad IMO -- you just have to play differently when you lane against her. NEVER be below half health (usually the threshold where spider will kill you before you can TP), and if your lane partner gets the spider, help him out by killing it. I understand the reasoning behind your idea here zircon, but I think that everyone needs to learn how to play against her -- banning her will never teach what needs to be taught. No one who plays with us plays a good enough Tempest to warrant a ban IMO. If you're going to ban tempest because he jungles and emerges a champion, you might as well ban my Wildsoul also. I am yet to lose a game as Wildsoul where no one ganks me in the jungle -- the same is true of Tempest, for largely the same reasons. If someone picks tempest, put wards at their creep spawns and you'll cut his levelling in half (the same, incidentally, is true for wildsoul and legion). No one in OCR currently does this, and it would devastate a jungle player. Next time it comes up I'll prove it to you guys. As far as Tempest ult goes, don't stand together if you don't want to get hit by it. Stand in two groups instead, a stunner in each one. Losing a teamfight to Tempest ult at our level of play is because the losing team was lazy/stupid, not because the Tempest was particularly good. Edit: I support the Jereziah / Succubus bans entirely. That being said, I'm not going to ask for a repick if someone randoms and draws them. So if you want to play those chars, roll the dice and hope. Edit 2: Nullfire blade needs to be picked up by more OCR players than me ever. It instagibs Arachna's ult, removes almost every buff in the game, gives your attacks manaburn, and can be casted as a slow to follow up your stun. If more people grabbed it we wouldn't be having half of this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 You and I should play more, Bardic. I like how you think. You're on the right track for higher level play. On that note I just dominated a game as Puppet in a 1900+ inhouse. I rushed the new int blade and just ripped them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anosou Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 No permabans. Jeraziah if anyone but do it per game if we have a lot of new people and don't want some certain heroes for the game in question. I'd like to request no scout backdooring in friendly in-house games though. It's a viable strategy but it's too much of a dick move to BOTH use scout AND backdoor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm fine with no backdoor as a friendly thing but if you're not on my team then by all means please pick Scout I love getting free kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I really do think BD is just fine, but will agree to not do it if that's what the group wants. Zero proved that Scout is a huge failure though, as he plays the best game of anyone here (except maybe donut?) and there was literally nothing he could do against anyone with a counter-invis item. If he had randomed Chronos instead that game, we wouldn't have had a chance of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm adamant that BD is fine. Either team can do it, and it puts your team at a disadvantage (teamfights become 4v5) not to mention homecoming stones are a good counter. However, I still feel VERY badly about Arachna in 3v3, same with Succu. Only in 3v3. The way the heroes are designed is simply not suitable for 3v3 imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Zero proved that Scout is a huge failure though, as he plays the best game of anyone here (except maybe donut?) and there was literally nothing he could do against anyone with a counter-invis item. If he had randomed Chronos instead that game, we wouldn't have had a chance of winning. Thanks for realizing. It's more frustrating than you know. I mean I don't mind losing but to lose for the sole reason that my hero is crap is just ugh. And just to be objective (for your player tiers): Donuts has a better KDA than I do by far. He also has a higher XP/min but his lower PSR indicates he hasn't seen as much actual competitive play and/or as many higher levels players as I have. Also a lot of the guys that actually earned their super high PSRs like me have pretty bad KDAs since it's the nature of the level of play. I haven't played with him ever in a full game so I can't say for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Whoa lots of posts since yesterday. In our games, Tempest is similar to Arachna and Succubus. I barely ever see anyone besides me get wards without someone asking for them, even if they're support. Nor do we actually have teams that have the coordination to go gank the enemy jungle. (I don't think I have EVER been ganked in an inhouse game when I was jungling with Tempest) It's really easy for me to get an eight minute portal key and gank bot a few times. After that I will generally just dominate the teamfights. It's easy to say "Don't bunch up", but that's not something you're going to remember once the teamfight has already started, just like with Plague Rider. Considering all of this, I don't think most of the people in our inhouse games have the coordination to counter Tempest effectively, whether it be by warding his jungle, ganking him often, or spread out effectively. Also, Bardic, I don't think it has ever come to the point where I was the support hero and the enemy team had a jungler, but if it were the case I would have definitely warded their jungle. Reminds me of this time we had a Tree on our team who warded all but two of our neutral spawns, resulting in me as Chronos not being able to farm off neutrals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmuh Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 i just installed this but have never played dota before i am afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilecat Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm supposed to get a beta invite from a friend and I've never played DotA either. I'm not unfamiliar with PvP though and the game seems to share some similar points with D2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm supposed to get a beta invite from a friend and I've never played DotA either. I'm not unfamiliar with PvP though and the game seems to share some similar points with D2. To be honest, it plays more like a combination of tower defense, team-based FPS games, and WoW PVP. It's not that much like D2 in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 i just installed this but have never played dota before i am afraid! I had never played DotA either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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