Heroes of Newerth

[eternal Zero]

Also that 2k item isn't too useful in most other cases. The only way I see a competitive team getting that item is saying "let's not buy wards for ten minutes to let our support afford this and hope we don't lose in the meantime". Clever solution that has been around for a while but isn't well known because it's so inefficient.

Axe/Lego has always been a mixed bag for me. His main contribution to a competitive team is to completely overwhelm an enemy lane. NOT to jungle. His main use came with a Warlock combo lane on your short lane where you would stand in between the two enemy towers and intercept creep waves. Warlock has a healing spell (the original and better version of Voodoo's mojo) and Axe would start with double stouts. You would kill every creep wave quickly and allow your creeps to own their primary tower. This usually worked because you put a weaker late game hero + babysitter in your long lane and so they wouldn't be able to do a thing. He has no such support here and many people play him wrong. You say his ulti KSes which it could but it ensures enemy carries don't get away with with almost nothing. He's definitely a force to be reckoned with and I feel he belongs in your A tier as a hero but in terms of actual team composition he belongs in your B due to the changes made to Warlock and the general "4th skill" feel to Voodoo's mojo early in the game. That is to say, you shouldn't get it until it's the last available skill so that combination will do you little good come midgame if you don't have both cursed ground and stunning casks maxed out by then.

Also Pred isn't a tryhard hero. He's only seen as truly useful on a team if the opponents have mostly high HP str heroes who act as HP batteries or a lot of magic immunity as his lifesteal will go through it. He is my carry counter to Jeraziah.

[Battousai]

Can we please drop the drama bullshit? I like to hang out with you guys and play games but some people are taking it way too seriously.

The next time you want to complain, ask yourself how many times you had Harmonious on your team lately, how many times he was your lane partner and went too far in and died. I'm not ragging on Harm, but his play is enough to make anyone rage. And we still play with him. I might not like that I'm his lane partner, and he's going to feed, but I don't say "let's not let him play"

RelyanCe, you can't compare a pubstomp EM game to an inhouse. It just won't work out the same as that. While I agree Arachna is way overpowered in 3v3, in 5v5 she's quite squishy and fun to focus on. Nothing makes me more giddy than watching the small spider and the big spider both melt.

Come on, people, it's a game.

[Tensei]

I think that once the incoming Silencer port hits, Tempest will finally have a true hard counter( iirc Silencer's ult is a global silence for several seconds, so you can pop it immediately after tempest ults to break his channeling), so I'm looking forward to it.

On an unrelated note, PLEASE STOP WITH THE RETARDED DRAMA IN INHOUSE GAMES. Don't ragequit before the game has even started just because the enemy team has picked Arachna and Tempest. Don't call me out on bitching when I give you advice on how to play your hero after you've repeatedly said that you're inexperienced with him. Remember that I just as well could have pointed out the obvious and said that you were feeding the enemy team and just sucking in general.

[Dr. Tran!]

Interesting, but that's a 2k counter, and a stun would work just as well. ANY character or ult can be disrupted via a stun, but the risk/reward of Tempest is way better than any other character.

No, it can be used in his ultimate. Stuns cannot. If you find yourself constantly losing because of his ultimate, that 2k price tag is imo justified.

[zircon]

And as Zero pointed out, it's not a useful 2k item otherwise, and that's a lot of gold to counter ONE hero. He's way too powerful, and every pro/competitive league agrees. If a ban exists in a league it's probably going to be even worse for us since we have a big skill gap among our players.

Anyway, I'm one to complain about hero picks or team balance that I think is unfair, but I don't ever ragequit (under any circumstances). Be sportsmanlike, guys. It's easy to get frustrated since you can play well and still lose, but give it your all anyway.

[Battousai]

I don't get why we don't just do game-by-game bans. Competitive play from what I've seen of in DotA was that each team took a turn banning a hero from the pool (I think it was 2 bans each team) and then picking continued from there. So even if Jereziah and Tempest don't show up in the random draft, you can decide as a team that you don't want to face The Dark Lady or whomever. It's that simple.

Randoming for the banned hero would still be okay. In the case of the earlier game, garian randomed Arachna, and Hemo picked Tempest. Randoming Arachna would be totally fine, but picking Tempest would not.

[Capa Langley]

In the case of the earlier game, garian randomed Arachna, and Hemo picked Tempest. Randoming Arachna would be totally fine, but picking Tempest would not.

Actually, Luke picked Tempest.

[Hemophiliac]

Actually, Luke picked Tempest.

Yeah Luke picked me Sand Wraith and I picked him tempest, we swapped.

This was also after a randomed arachna.

[Clefairy]

Having such variable performance is a source of endless frustration for me. Any advice(apart from "just accept it, main blacksmith") on being less of a wildcard?

[Bahamut]

Having such variable performance is a source of endless frustration for me. Any advice(apart from "just accept it, main blacksmith") on being less of a wildcard?

Haha zircon complained about me picking blacksmith actually.

[Dhsu]

Check out hero guides on Honwiki.net and the official forums. They'll help you with item and skill builds and how to use them properly. I generally read guides for heroes I recently used or will use soon, since I find the information sticks better that way.

After that, it's just practice, bro. If you get frustrated you can always vent by playing some TF2.

[Clefairy]

Check out hero guides on Honwiki.net and the official forums. They'll help you with item and skill builds and how to use them properly. I generally read guides for heroes I recently used or will use soon, since I find the information sticks better that way.

After that, it's just practice, bro. If you get frustrated you can always vent by playing some TF2.

I was hoping for something a liiiiittle more specific, but I suppose you're right. Thanks.

Apologies to everyone for being moody. I know it's difficult to deal with; you have my gratitude for doing so.

[LuketheXjesse]

Haha zircon complained about me picking blacksmith actually.

Any hero that beats Zircon goes on the banlist!

[zircon]

No, he was on MY team - Blacksmith just really sucks Even if you know what you're doing, he's very hard to play. No real AOE and luck-based burst potential, plus he's a melee INT.

[eternal Zero]

Having such variable performance is a source of endless frustration for me. Any advice(apart from "just accept it, main blacksmith") on being less of a wildcard?

Start focusing on a specific character set to play. Stop randoming and taking chances. Play as many AP games as possible so you keep getting your heroes. Learn their nuances inside and out. Once you think you've done this move onto the next set. Now you know how to play those heroes as well as how to fight them. This is what I did and I can guarantee it works. And yes you should even include heroes like Scout and Blacksmith who are generally terrible burdens but can be good on occasion so you can learn how to deal with them. Also heroes like Ophelia or Hellbringer to fully appreciate each skill as well as what someone else playing them is going through physically and mentally. Microing a bunch of units (usually) reduces reaction time among every unit and if you can force certain situations they will abandon their micro entirely and just try to run away and save their hero. It's things like that you want to learn. Also, like Dhsu said, study study study. I've spent so much time reading strategy and watching pro replays of this game. By this game I mean DotA and I think it'd be worth your time if you honestly want to improve to start watching pro DotA. There's definitely a lot to do and you can't do it all at once. Pick a single area then go from there. Also whenever possible read the strategies and guides based on their DotA counterparts. These are usually better because honestly most of the HoN community just doesn't understand the metagame thinking and does extremely stupid shit. Even though differences are clear between the games the DotA metagame is far superior in strategy.

Also if what Battousai mentioned is what you guys agree on then we might as well start playing -cm mode which is where each team gets 2 or 3 bans in a 1-1-1-1-1-etc fashion and then the team that banned first picks first in the alternate pick progression of 1-2-2-2-2-1. This is fine I guess but honestly you guys aren't good enough to warrant the full on -cm mode. I do agree with soft banning the tryhard heroes as well as heroes like Dark Lady, Magebane, and Sand Wraith because they're not hard to play in a setting where people won't dominate your face for doing nothing in lane and you don't get better playing like this. You get lazy and incompetent by thinking you can be useless in the early game to make up for it in late game and that's just bad play. Yes I realize I'm saying play a game full of the lower A and B list heroes but that's the point. In order to make up for your hero's deficiencies you either have to improve your own play or play as a team. Either way you're improving. Back when I was still learning DotA my group would ban heroes all the time for being too easy. Razor, Nerubian Assassin, Gondar, Enigma, etc just because they had one aspect that made them too good whether it be a spell or easy farming or huge burst damage out o invis.

[bladiator]

Here's what I would like to see (I don't ask for much): I want to see more games where people pick a hero based on the side they are on. This AP stuff is really lame. I want to see some teams start having to put their heads together based on the abilities of just one side or the other instead of just having a huge pool of "nukers" or "we need melee" etc.

[Tensei]

The way I select my heroes in AP is something like this: I tend to have a pool of several heroes that I'm 'working' on, for the purpose of getting better with them, and I'll switch them out now and then. At the moment it's Predator and Moonqueen but a few weeks ago it was Pestilence, Zephyr, Succubus etc.

Of course in a 'serious' game I will always adapt according to my team's needs, but in an inhouse with mostly new players I just pick heroes from my 'pool'.

[relyanCe]

wait hon has captains mode?

-cm forever

[eternal Zero]

Here's what I would like to see (I don't ask for much): I want to see more games where people pick a hero based on the side they are on. This AP stuff is really lame. I want to see some teams start having to put their heads together based on the abilities of just one side or the other instead of just having a huge pool of "nukers" or "we need melee" etc.

Sides are unbalanced. Even back in DotA when pros used to only play normal mode and not -cm Sentinel won roughly 80% of the time just because they had heroes like Chen where the Scourge had nothing of the sort. Same deal in HoN.

wait hon has captains mode?

-cm forever

Not a direct implementation yet. We've been doing it in the lobby since the beginning of the HoN beta though so everyone who plays competitively knows how to do it properly.

[zircon]

eZ I would really like some tips on how to become a more competitive player. My PSR is hovering at 1500 and my win/loss is worse than 50%. It seems like I am always well-farmed but I feel like I'm not the 'force' that you (or Donut, etc.) are in games. Even trying to keep in mind what you said about staying in the lane, next time we play, I'd like you to try to give me some pointers on how to step my game up.

[Hemophiliac]

...most of the HoN community just doesn't understand the metagame thinking and does extremely stupid shit. Even though differences are clear between the games the DotA metagame is far superior in strategy.

quoted for emphasis.

i'd like to see -cm implemented, and am up for playing it.

[eternal Zero]

eZ I would really like some tips on how to become a more competitive player. My PSR is hovering at 1500 and my win/loss is worse than 50%. It seems like I am always well-farmed but I feel like I'm not the 'force' that you (or Donut, etc.) are in games. Even trying to keep in mind what you said about staying in the lane, next time we play, I'd like you to try to give me some pointers on how to step my game up.

Then next time we all play together treat me like anyone else in the clan. I will play support and I will lane with you when you are playing the carry. I won't go all out I'll just sit and observe. I watch all of your lanes when you're on my team to a certain extent but I never get the finite details from the minimap and quick glances while I'm soloing. Or you know, play me 1v1 and we'll see where your game falters.

[zircon]

New tiers (IMO)

God Tier - Jeraziah, Tempest

S - Madman, Magmus, Behemoth, Swiftblade, Defiler, Thunderbringer, Demented Shaman, Arachna, Plague Rider, Succubus, Hellbringer, Pharaoh, Electrician, Pandamonium, Kraken, Pestilence

A - Pollywog Priest, Torturer, Blood Hunter, Pyromancer, Scout, Moon Queen, Wildsoul, Magebane, Predator, Sand Wraith, The Dark Lady, Maliken, Valkyrie, Soulstealer

B - Puppet Master, Voodoo Jester, Hammerstorm, Zephyr, War Beast, Glacius, Soul Reaper, Andromeda, Legionnaire, Accursed, Slither

C - Armadon, Blacksmith, Devourer, Night Hound, Nymphora

D - Chronos, Keeper of the Forest, Wretched Hag

Some movement since last time. The big one is that my beloved Soulstealer is no longer S. As much as I like him, against a good team he is too situational. Yes, his nukes are awesome. However, his Ult takes WAY too long to cast. Even if you port in, ANY stun or disjoint will mess it up. This means he pretty much needs 5k+ gold in farm just to be able to use his ult properly, and even then, he's squishy. While he does hit like a truck, and CAN be very powerful due to his amazing farm, I don't quite feel he is as competitive as I originally thought. But maybe I'm wrong.

Pesti, Valk and Accursed all moved up for good reason. I needed to play and see them played more to really understand what they can do. Pesti in particular is no doubt an S hero, but I still don't quite get that sense of fear that I would while facing a good Madman or Swiftblade.

I also think it might be fun to speculate on the "best" team. Excluding god tier, my vote would be Shaman, Thunderbringer, Behemoth, Madman, Succubus. Hellbringer and Pesti could be exchanged for some of those, too. Another beastly team would be Electrician, Pandamonium, Defiler, Magmus and Arachna.

[eternal Zero]

New tiers (IMO)

God Tier - Jeraziah, Tempest

S - Madman, Behemoth, Swiftblade, Defiler, Thunderbringer, Demented Shaman, Arachna, Plague Rider, Succubus, Hellbringer, Pharaoh, Electrician, Pandamonium, Kraken, Pestilence

A - Pollywog Priest, Torturer, Blood Hunter, Pyromancer, Scout, Moon Queen, Wildsoul, Magebane, Predator, Sand Wraith, The Dark Lady, Maliken, Valkyrie, Soulstealer

B - Puppet Master, Voodoo Jester, Hammerstorm, Zephyr, War Beast, Glacius, Soul Reaper, Andromeda, Legionnaire, Accursed, Slither

C - Armadon, Blacksmith, Devourer, Night Hound, Nymphora

D - Chronos, Keeper of the Forest, Wretched Hag

Some movement since last time. The big one is that my beloved Soulstealer is no longer S. As much as I like him, against a good team he is too situational. Yes, his nukes are awesome. However, his Ult takes WAY too long to cast. Even if you port in, ANY stun or disjoint will mess it up. This means he pretty much needs 5k+ gold in farm just to be able to use his ult properly, and even then, he's squishy. While he does hit like a truck, and CAN be very powerful due to his amazing farm, I don't quite feel he is as competitive as I originally thought. But maybe I'm wrong.

Pesti, Valk and Accursed all moved up for good reason. I needed to play and see them played more to really understand what they can do. Pesti in particular is no doubt an S hero, but I still don't quite get that sense of fear that I would while facing a good Madman or Swiftblade.

Bold = Move up two tiers.

Underline = Move down a tier.

Bolt + Underline = Move up three tiers

Red = Drop two tiers.

Best lineup we've ever had looked like this:

Long lane: Demented Shaman + Carry (Either Arachna or Pest). This is a dominant lane.

Short lane: Glacius + Caster Nuker (We've had Pyro, Thunderbringer, or Pharoah fill this role)

Mid: Power carry. With Glacius it could be Thunderbringer or Soulstealer.

We never lost a game with this lineup.

There's also the Hellbourne only team of:

Thunderbringer/Arachna

Slither

War Beast

Tempest

Demented Shaman

that can kill Kongor before first creep wave and then have a level 5 Zeus in mid to rape face.

[Tensei]

Best team for me would be something like Demented Shaman/ Pestilence or for the safe lane, something aggressive like Pyro/Magmus or Pyro/Hammerstorm for the short lane , and any decent 'mid' hero for the middle lane. Depending on the enemy team this could be a pure ganker, a semi-carry or even a support hero (Hellbringer).

I am completely done playing support or hard carries in pubs btw. Whenever I play support, our team will end up losing because our carries can't make proper use of me being the wardbitch and setting up ganks for them, and whenever I play a hard carry our team will die to early pushes before I can get my farm going. I'm only able to really influence the game when I pick a semi-carry like moonqueen because it means I can be a dominant force throughout all of the game, but it unfortunately limits my choice of heroes a lot.