SEGA Removing "Poor" and "Average" Sonic Titles From Retail

[zircon]

Except no, because a bunch of people doing a PC demo with Unity3D is different than making a full game that meets XBLA/PSN/WiiWare specs, as I said before. I'm pretty sure many hobbyists could make a Flash mockup of Sonic, that wouldn't mean it's a scalable, optimized engine that will function on a console.

[BardicKnowledge]

Except no, because a bunch of people doing a PC demo with Unity3D is different than making a full game that meets XBLA/PSN/WiiWare specs, as I said before. I'm pretty sure many hobbyists could make a Flash mockup of Sonic, that wouldn't mean it's a scalable, optimized engine that will function on a console.

Don't be so quick to dismiss "amateur" tools. Look at the AM2R project -- the demo for that is the slickest 2d Metroid I've seen and it's all done by one guy.

Regardless of whether that engine will "work" on a console, it _is_ working on PC and is running perfectly. I'm not as familiar with Sonic fangames as much but will assume that a few are at the same level (and I'm only arguing about high-level, near complete fan projects here). If they are making better games than the parent companies, then regardless of their commercial viability or workability on a console they are still better games. Better level design, better physics decisions, and better innovative additions to core gameplay are all independent of both platform and engine.

[zircon]

But as I said, making games and demos for PC is not the same as developing for consoles, especially downloadable titles which have very strict tech limitations. Show me a fan-made engine made with WiiWare dev tools and then I will be impressed. As I said, you can 'fake' something for PC that looks good and plays smoothly because you don't have to worry about any limitations. The problem is being able to take that functionality and put it on a console.

[Calpis]

Totally agree with Zircon. Just look at how long it took to port Cave Story over to WiiWare, and how many unforseen issues that they had to fix that didn't show up in the PC version.

[lazygecko]

After seeing Sonic games/physics very accurately ported by fans to the GBA and iPhone, I really don't doubt that they are more than capable of doing the same for a fully fledged downloadable console title.

[Tex]

Bad games aren't always due to "shitty programmers". If there isn't enough time in the day to make a polished game and the budget doesn't allow for a larger development team, then it's not the programmers' fault that it was "bad".

If they release a game so early because 'there isn't enough time' you have to wonder if they really care about making a good game at all. It would be worth the wait if they spent more time working on this, meaning you would be rewarded with a more polished product. Sixteen years later and this is the best they can do for a sequel?

[Calpis]

If they release a game so early because 'there isn't enough time' you have to wonder if they really care about making a good game at all. It would be worth the wait if they spent more time working on this, meaning you would be rewarded with a more polished product. Sixteen years later and this is the best they can do for a sequel?

Point taken, but it comes down to how much development time and money they think they can invest compared to how many people will buy it equals profit, aka if they can continue to stay in business. If the company doesn't have the money to take risks (I honestly don't know about the financial state of Sega) then it becomes less about "How much do we 'care' to make a good game" and more of "We can't afford certain scopes of games at this point." I think game development is stressful enough that almost all devs really do have passion and want to make great games, but getting the money and time to do so is the bottom line.

Also, I think at this point that fan game that everyone keeps bringing up is moot. It's not a full game and apparently the engine that they used to build it (Unity 3D?) isn't really all that great and is really CPU intensive.

(From Kotaku)

The demo is built on the Unity3D engine and users have bemoaned its CPU intensive needs and frame rate. It has its issues—and many Sonic Retro forum goers are taking issue with the game's art style—and is not yet a complete project.

[José the Bronx Rican]

Did anyone bring up yet how fangames can develop over several years without any kind of deadline, and the team adds tweaks and improvements "whenever they get to 'em" and it'll be released "whenever it's released so stop asking"? Not to mention we usually forgive everything in a fangame and nothing in a professionally developed one. Not saying this happened with S4 and the 'remix' thing, but I'm willing to bet the fan title would be declared a lot closer to "suck" if Sega did release it.

EDIT: Oh, and quoted from the Sonic Retro article:

I, along with many other members of the community, have been beta testing this game for a few days and we’ve caught a few of the issues lingering in the demo. Pelikan has released this project a bit ahead of schedule and has yet to correct everything that we’ve given back to him. If you find an issue with the project, don’t hesitate to air it. It will only make a great project even better.

Less relevant in the age of downloadable patches, but still worth mentioning.

[EC2151]

The AMR2 project is still going? Heck, I thought it died long ago. Like the personally-preferred

.

[Bleck]

Except no, because a bunch of people doing a PC demo with Unity3D is different than making a full game that meets XBLA/PSN/WiiWare specs

this doesn't really mean anything when you realize that there never really was an actual reason to develop specifically for that medium

[JCvgluvr]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The sonic fanbase has become the most shallow, fickle, unpleasable, whiny, and unlikeable fanbase I've ever come in contact with. You make a good Mario game, most people will accept it. Make a good Zelda game, and most people will accept it (even if Zelda's fanbase is almost as fickle). Bungie can make Reach, and please all but the most hardcore of unhappy fanboys stuck in the "Halo C.E" mindframe.

But there hasn't been a single Sonic game in years that is generally accepted. You only get pockets of happiness here and there, with what seems like 75% of the fanbase moaning and groaning. This ALWAYS happens. After years and years of it, I'm positively disgusted with it. Does the fanbase have valid reasons to be what they are? Yes and no. But they've got NO reasons this time. No major problems here. Sonic 4 is freaking solid. The reviews recognize that, the sales reflect that, and any gamer who doesn't have his head 5 feet up his own anus can see that.

This is exactly why I would be ashamed to associate myself with this fanbase. I wouldn't be caught dead referring to myself as a Sonic fan. Now, I'm just a gamer who happens to like some Sonic games. By doing so, I can retain what little dignity I have left. It's absolutely insane, to me.

[Bleck]

Sonic 4 is freaking solid. The reviews recognize that

that's cute asdasd

[EC2151]

I was 100% proud of being a Metroid fan until Other M showed me that the series' creator is a total fucking loon whose views about women's equality is about 200 years out-of-date.

So now I got Mega Man.

[The Coop]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The sonic fanbase has become the most shallow, fickle, unpleasable, whiny, and unlikeable fanbase I've ever come in contact with. You make a good Mario game, most people will accept it. Make a good Zelda game, and most people will accept it (even if Zelda's fanbase is almost as fickle). Bungie can make Reach, and please all but the most hardcore of unhappy fanboys stuck in the "Halo C.E" mindframe.

But there hasn't been a single Sonic game in years that is generally accepted. You only get pockets of happiness here and there, with what seems like 75% of the fanbase moaning and groaning. This ALWAYS happens. After years and years of it, I'm positively disgusted with it. Does the fanbase have valid reasons to be what they are? Yes and no. But they've got NO reasons this time. No major problems here. Sonic 4 is freaking solid. The reviews recognize that, the sales reflect that, and any gamer who doesn't have his head 5 feet up his own anus can see that.

This is exactly why I would be ashamed to associate myself with this fanbase. I wouldn't be caught dead referring to myself as a Sonic fan. Now, I'm just a gamer who happens to like some Sonic games. By doing so, I can retain what little dignity I have left. It's absolutely insane, to me.

I think you cost yourself some of that dignity with this insultive rant, my friend.

Now, I'd like to think you know me well enough that you know I'm a fanboy of very few things. I prefer to take things on an individual basis with games within a franchise, rather than say "A isn't like B so A sucks." As proof, I still listen to "Risk" by Megadeth... perhaps their most hated album. Might not be a rockin' metal album, but it's still an enjoyable listen to me (Megadeth lite?).

It's on that note that I say something just feels... off, with Sonic 4. I wish I could say what, but I've only gotten to play a demo of the game (no 360, Wii or PS3 here). As such, I can't really pin it down myself without more play time. Granted, the physics are odd (stopping dead in mid air?), but hey, the physics took some getting used to with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance, so I can get around that. I'm hoping Steam will get a hold of this so I can play through it. My curiosity is piqued, and if it's $9.99 or something similar, I'd likely go for it based off of that demo.

Also, keep in mind, that my comments were addressing statements you made, and weren't any Sonic fanboyisms coming to the surface.

And for the record, I had fun with Sonic Unleashed (PS2). It wasn't perfect, but it was far more playable than Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heroes in my opinion.

[The Phalanx]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The sonic fanbase has become the most shallow, fickle, unpleasable, whiny, and unlikeable fanbase I've ever come in contact with.

You've clearly never dealt with Transformers fans.

[AkumajoBelmont]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The sonic fanbase has become the most shallow, fickle, unpleasable, whiny, and unlikeable fanbase I've ever come in contact with.

So fans of a series (a series that has constantly been on the downward spiral for the last 10 years) are supposed to fawn over a game that some people tell them is the return to form they've been waiting for, but really isn't?

Who are you to say what 'the fanbase' should get? Their a 'fanbase' for a reason. They're the reason the series is still going at all. And I bet you that 'fanbase' is a lot more forgiving than you think.

I admit, I love the Sonic games of yesterday. I also adored Sonic Adventure. I really enjoyed Sonic Heroes. The Sonic Advance games were good up until the third title. Even Sonic and the Secret Rings was ok.

But I'm supposed to forgive a sub-par game that don't forget, SEGA in it's infinite wisdom, decided to label the FOURTH installment of the series? That is INVITING a comparison. And, having labelled the game as the fourth installment, you think it would have more in common with the original games than a superficial resemblance and a use of the same perspective.

In my opinion, Sonic 4 doesn't even hold a candle to the plethora of other platformers that the title shares the stage with on services such as XBLA.

Sure, some Sonic fans are whingey, annoying little bitches. However, there are those of us out there that are just passionate. I feel the same way about the CastleVania series... which has yet to really do me wrong. The same goes for Halo, the Grandia series, Streets of Rage and more.

You know when something is off in one of your favourite series of games. It doesn't make you shallow, fickle, or any of those other clichéd and automated 'Sonic Fan' insults.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion... but you'd think that those that actually enjoy the gamess would actually know a little about the series. And that doesn't come purely from nostalgia, though things like that do play a part. Mostly, it comes from a passion for things that one likes.

Geez...

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I was 100% proud of being a Metroid fan until Other M showed me that the series' creator is a total fucking loon whose views about women's equality is about 200 years out-of-date.

So now I got Mega Man.

Except that Metroid Other M is still very much playable.

So I just got through playing the demo for both Sonic 4 and Sonic Adventure.

I can clearly see why the fans don't like Sonic 4, even though I thought it has some cool stuff going for it.

Sonic's animations just look wrong. They don't look fluid at all, and that isn't even mentioning the game physics. Jumping and trying to actually run is pretty terrible. There's a reason why Mario games are pretty much heralded as awesome: They control well. Trying to make Sonic run or jump feels like trying to lift an anvil off the ground with one hand. Doesn't feel good in the least. The game really does look and feel like a game that was thrown together using flash. Wasn't this game announced a year ago? What happened to all that time to develop?

That being said, the level design is alright and I like the homing attack addition to it, but that's more about just being derivative and not really adding much else.

As for Sonic Adventure? Go choke on a log and die, Sonic Team.

Sorry, that was harsh, but holy crap is this game the antithesis of fun to me. I know I'm dealing with the Dreamcast(which kept on following the Sega tradition of shitty, blocky looking 3D), but it's just so damned painful. Environments feel stale, sound is crap, Sonic controls like a drunken teenager drives, and it's just unfun.

Jesus Christ now I know the pain of a Sonic fan.

[JCvgluvr]

that's cute asdasd

Sonic 4 is the highest rated Sonic game since Sonic Rush. Or, if you want to go by console releases, since Sonic Heroes. I don't see what's cute about that. Success usually isn't cute, it's just awesome.

I was 100% proud of being a Metroid fan until Other M showed me that the series' creator is a total fucking loon whose views about women's equality is about 200 years out-of-date. So now I got Mega Man.

I hear you there, man. Hey, we're used to ignore the stinkers in Metroid, right? Hunters, schmunters, you know?

I think you cost yourself some of that dignity with this insultive rant, my friend.

If you're one of those pockets of happiness in a sea of discontentment, then my rant doesn't apply to you, and you have nothing to be insulted about. I'm talking about Malaki haha the people who call every single Sonic game a piece of you know what. Some games, like Sonic '06 deserve it. But not Sonic 4. It's fine if people don't like it, but calling something crap should be reserved for games like Superman 64, or Cheetahmen.

You've clearly never dealt with Transformers fans.

No, no I have not. Maybe I can restrict my rant to gamers?

[Nabeel Ansari]

But not Sonic 4. It's fine if people don't like it, but calling something crap should be reserved for games like Superman 64, or Cheetahmen.

It's not so much they're mad about Sonic 4 sucking as it is about Sega lying.

They said it had a classic feel, and it most obviously doesn't.

[Bleck]

Sonic 4 is the highest rated Sonic game since Sonic Rush. Or, if you want to go by console releases, since Sonic Heroes. I don't see what's cute about that.

kane and lynch

'nuff said

[zircon]

Kane & Lynch has a 67 on Metacritic, majority gave it mixed reviews. Sonic 4 has an 80. So unless you're saying that SEGA just bribed everyone (and better than Eidos), MC is a pretty trustworthy metric.

[Bleck]

I'm saying review sites in general aren't a very trustworthy metric

if you go to any site that has a Rotten Tomatoes-style system where they have the editor reviews and the public reviews, the editors are giving it mostly 70-80s and everyone else is giving it 50 or lower

so basically the review site is less important as evidence of game quality than how many people are complaining that it is bad

I am going to pre-emptively strike down the idea that it is just sonic fans spamming sites with bad reviews, because my own existence is evidence to the contrary

edit: in retrospect I find it surprising that after so many arguments about subjectivity with zircon, he is now implying that others' opinion of a game is important

[zircon]

Hey, we're just talking numbers here.

By saying that editor reviews don't matter, consider the following. When people like something, they generally don't go out of their way to say so. How many people do you know would call up or write a letter to a company after a good (or even average) experience? How many people call the manager of a restaurant because their meal is enjoyable? The reason user scores tend to be lower on review aggregator sites is because people are more likely to be vocal when they DON'T like something. If you spend $15 on a game you enjoy, you're happy. Why waste your time just adding a 10/10 score to a pile? On the other hand, if you spend $15 on a game and HATE it, you're going to tell people, because you're pissed that you wasted your money.

That's why editors and product reviewers - people who have to write about everything they review, whether they like it or not - tend to deliver more balanced opinions. Yeah, you can point to a case like K&L on IGN, but for every one of those, there are 20 editorial reviews saying K&L was bad (and in fact MC reports that it got almost no positive reviews.)

Long story short, people like to complain. You of all people should know this. What percentage of your posts is you complaining about, well, anything, and what percentage is you spreading the word about how great things are?

[Bleck]

you have a point, although there is still a degree of uncertainty

it'd be kind of difficult to get actual ratios of people who disliked it and said something versus people who liked it and said nothing, and I still think that reviewers are too small (and possibly too biased) of a group to truly be used as an idea supporting game quality

that being said, I return to the idea that sonic 4 getting good reviews doesn't really matter in a debate about whether or not it is poopy

[noTuX]

Ok...I finally sat down, and played Sonic 4 though, I was a little drunk.

I enjoyed the graphics. The music and sounds had a nice retro feel to it, but I can understand why that might turn some people off. Some sounds just get downright annoying.

As some of you mentioned, the physics and some of the animations are just awkward and poorly put together. And it is especially noticeable since I recently played the older Sonic titles. IMO, its not a HUGE turnoff, its just something that will cost you a few deaths from accidentally landing on spikes/enemies until you get used to it.

The targeting system is very annoying to me. I loved it in the 3D titles, but it does not mesh well with the wonky physics.

I'll give it a 7/10

I can see this as a successful reboot for Sonic, but I hope the Sonic team uses the fans feedback when developing future projects and the developers actually have MORE TIME to fine-tune the little things that made the older games great.