Final Fantasy XIII..... 2?

[thephoenix]

So, in other words, your answer to my question "I guess your opinion is the only one that matters?" was "Yes, I'm the only one who decides whether a game is good or bad."

Sorry, but by every objective measure, FF13 was a good game. It's unreasonable to say that critics don't matter (ALL critics, as MC aggregates and weights them), the general public doesn't matter, and sales don't matter. Your argument that "well, nobody knows what a good RPG is anymore" is inane.

Yes, because I said that, right? Maybe if you get your head out of your ass you'd hear what I'm saying a little better. Especially because neither of your quoted statements there are even remotely close to something I've said, and are in most ways contradictory. Then again, I guess most people can't be assed to actually read anything if they're only thinking about what they're going to say next.

Regardless, I stated reasons why it's hard to judge the "success" of a game off anything. Put 100 people in a room with one game, 80 of the 100 like it, it's a huge success! Put another 100 in a room with a game, only 20 of them like it, it's a huge failure. Most gamers I know don't put weight on critics viewpoints for many reasons, and all of them are pretty valid. Most reviewers don't get more than a few hours of gameplay to test and review a game, many tend to have bias for this or that reason, some companies have pushed reviewers to give higher scores to sponsors (see: Kane and Lynch and that whole shitstorm), so on. Can't really base off the income the game brought in because most of that come from sales to people that DON'T have an opinion on a game one way or another until after the money is already spent. Again, I use Transformers 2 as an example. Beyond that, the very wide consensus I've seen is that FFXIII was not well received. I believe there was even an interview where the lead designer (may be wrong) KNEW that it wouldn't do as well in America. I'd need to check Kotaku, I remember seeing that somewhere.

Either way, stand it on it's own, take away the nostalgia and the exceptions given to it, and the substance just isn't there. It's hollow. Sure, it looks pretty on the outside but once you get into it, there's not much there. The story was broken, the characters weren't as easy to attach to, and it felt poorly designed. I'm a fan of deeper gameplay. I want that intriguing story that doesn't make me stop and go "this is retarded" every 20 minutes. That was pretty much my exact thought pattern through the entire game. Especially when Hope was on screen.

[Fishy]

Why did I start this thread again? Oh that's right, it's because train wrecks are hilarious.

So in all seriousness, the pulse section of FFXIII was passable. If this game were to explore a newly settled pulse, and actually had FF like elements such as:

- Towns

- NPCs

- Sidequests that aren't just talking stones with grudges

- Characterful places to explore for no other reason then to explore them

I might actually have some hope for this on reflection. The graphics were awesome, and they won't change. The battle system sounds like it's gonna be adapted, hopefully for the better. Pulse was a much better setting to me, and felt more like a typical FF epic setting.

I'm changing my status from 'confused and angered' to 'quietly optimistic'.

[thephoenix]

Why did I start this thread again? Oh that's right, it's because train wrecks are hilarious.

So in all seriousness, the pulse section of FFXIII was passable. If this game were to explore a newly settled pulse, and actually had FF like elements such as:

- Towns

- NPCs

- Sidequests that aren't just talking stones with grudges

- Characterful places to explore for no other reason then to explore them

I might actually have some hope for this on reflection. The graphics were awesome, and they won't change. The battle system sounds like it's gonna be adapted, hopefully for the better. Pulse was a much better setting to me, and felt more like a typical FF epic setting.

I'm changing my status from 'confused and angered' to 'quietly optimistic'.

I guess what kind of bugs me is...this could have been DLC. In fact, DLC was in talks but apparently got canceled. They even asked in a few interviews about it and he said it was something they were working with, but then apologized as it wasn't happening. With this info now, that leads me to believe that the DLC was canceled to instead sell an entirely new game, and I've seen that before with games pawning expansions off as completely new games. That's bullshit. At this point, I question exactly how much more they could build on the story, especially having Versus, Dissidia, Kingdom Hearts, and all their other games on the table, not to include any other titles we have yet to hear about. Like the op-ed posted by someone on here, it's too much too fast and they're going for quantity over quality. I'd rather have 1-2 amazing games a year than 15+ that are sub par.

[zircon]

Regardless, I stated reasons why it's hard to judge the "success" of a game off anything. Put 100 people in a room with one game, 80 of the 100 like it, it's a huge success! Put another 100 in a room with a game, only 20 of them like it, it's a huge failure.

Yes, if you use small sampling sizes, the results will be inaccurate. The best you can do is take as wide a polling as possible. Hence the purpose of sites like Metacritic which aggregate opinions.

Most gamers I know don't put weight on critics viewpoints for many reasons, and all of them are pretty valid. Most reviewers don't get more than a few hours of gameplay to test and review a game, many tend to have bias for this or that reason, some companies have pushed reviewers to give higher scores to sponsors (see: Kane and Lynch and that whole shitstorm), so on.

If all the critics were simply being 'bought' (which in reality doesn't happen, Kane & Lynch has a very low score on MC) that wouldn't explain why the aggregate user rating is just as high.

Beyond that, the very wide consensus I've seen is that FFXIII was not well received. I believe there was even an interview where the lead designer (may be wrong) KNEW that it wouldn't do as well in America. I'd need to check Kotaku, I remember seeing that somewhere.

Where is the "very wide consensus"? It certainly isn't among reviewers, or among any user opinion aggregates I've seen. You're only going on your own subjective view. And yes, I posted several pages ago that Square admitted to doing international playtesting too late. However, they certainly didn't say that they "knew it wouldn't do as well in America."

Either way, stand it on it's own, take away the nostalgia and the exceptions given to it, and the substance just isn't there. It's hollow. Sure, it looks pretty on the outside but once you get into it, there's not much there. The story was broken, the characters weren't as easy to attach to, and it felt poorly designed. I'm a fan of deeper gameplay. I want that intriguing story that doesn't make me stop and go "this is retarded" every 20 minutes. That was pretty much my exact thought pattern through the entire game. Especially when Hope was on screen.

In your opinion. You keep making grand statements like "there is a wide consensus" with no source to back them up. When I show you sources to the contrary you just arbitrarily dismiss them.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion. But you're not talking opinions. You are trying to describe reality - how the majority of people feel about Final Fantasy XIII. You're insisting that most people didn't like the game, without showing any evidence of that. What's the point of a discussion if you're just going to say whatever you feel like without backing any of it up with logic or facts?

[thephoenix]

Yes, if you use small sampling sizes, the results will be inaccurate. The best you can do is take as wide a polling as possible. Hence the purpose of sites like Metacritic which aggregate opinions.

Metacritic pulls from professional review sites, citing a single opinion in most cases, not a "wide polling". Again, a big reason critics are hard to go off of is because of the numerous variables to their reviews and the ways they do them. By the way, Metacritic only lists 83 critics. If you want to say that you're using small sample sizes, getting the opinions of 83 people that have played the game and going off of that would literally fall under the exact analogy I used.

If all the critics were simply being 'bought' (which in reality doesn't happen, Kane & Lynch has a very low score on MC) that wouldn't explain why the aggregate user rating is just as high.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/rumor/gamespot-editor-fired-over-kane--lynch-review-328244.php

^^I'm talking about this, specifically...and sadly it's not the only time it's happened^^

Where is the "very wide consensus"? It certainly isn't among reviewers, or among any user opinion aggregates I've seen. You're only going on your own subjective view. And yes, I posted several pages ago that Square admitted to doing international playtesting too late. However, they certainly didn't say that they "knew it wouldn't do as well in America."

So, I want you to take a few seconds, go back, read the two words AFTER the "very wide consensus", then realize that by ignoring those two words it changes the statement completely. Bravo. From what I've seen in numerous ways, from conversations with the numerous gamers I talk with daily, to various reviews, to news sites and review sites, to so many other things...for every one person praising it I get ten saying it's nowhere near a good game. Kind of helps to finish reading, right?

Trying to find the story on the admission. However, those arguing about the linear storyline, even the creators state that it was made to be more linear, arguing that the US has become used to being dropped into an open world and that makes it harder to do storytelling. Honestly, I beg to differ, but still. I'll see if I can find the story about the admission, but it fell under the same lines as that...it's very different from the current US benchmark for RPGs.

http://kotaku.com/5472712/square-enix-attempts-to-explain-low-western-reviews

In your opinion. You keep making grand statements like "there is a wide consensus" with no source to back them up. When I show you sources to the contrary you just arbitrarily dismiss them.

So not only do you ignore the full statement I made, you changed it and added more to it to misquote me. Nicely done. And I'm the one not showing logic? Read above once more if you need to.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion. But you're not talking opinions. You are trying to describe reality - how the majority of people feel about Final Fantasy XIII. You're insisting that most people didn't like the game, without showing any evidence of that. What's the point of a discussion if you're just going to say whatever you feel like without backing any of it up with logic or facts?

I'm talking about how a majority of those I've spoken with at length about this have responded and reacted. This is actually the most backing I've seen FOR FFXIII since it's release. But you're right, I'll get right on having them all put signed statements up, detailing exactly what I've said. We're in a day and age that games are given much more leverage and exceptions...it's the reason why Call of Duty can release a game every year and sell millions of copies even if it's the same thing on repeat.

[RDX]

alright here's how it is. both zircon and phoenix are right (actually i havent read any of zircon's posts they're not emotional enough)

They're both right, I'm guessing, based upon the sides of the argument that they represent. The critics loved it, yes, and the user score is pretty high too, as well. However, the whole thing with people returning the game and the price dropping really fast clearly means something. As you guys might remember, FF13 sold shit tons the day it came out in Japan. If many people shortly thereafter sold the game, then it's not like Squeenix lost any money from that, a sold unit is a sold unit (Unless they had to recall it, which they didn't, therefore irrelevant). But it does represent consumer dissatisfaction.

So yeah the critics loved it, but there's a reason why many of us hear people complain about the game, and it's not just because fans are a bunch of whiny bastards. And really anything could be used to explain the high critic score, maybe they appreciate non-absolute shit games more than we do. Or maybe they were "bought off". Or maybe they're otakus. Or maybe. With the user score though, think about how much effort it takes to make an account and then vote on something. I actually think there'd be less of an incentive to make one as a person who hated the game versus someone who loved it.

[Kenogu Labz]

Personal attacks do not proper behavior make. While debate's fine, trolling is not, and at this rate, you're starting to act trollish. I'm not trying to shut you up, but do please keep comments towards others civil. Debates can be had without personal attacks.

Quite honestly, I don't see how they can say the storytelling was at fault. As far as I know (which is not terribly far), Japan has imitated America's style in their media; sure, they've embellished it and shaped it to their culture somewhat, but the roots are still there; I've never had a hard time understanding, "Why are they telling a story with dialogue? Can't we just have little pictographs instead?"

The only case where stories tend to come across differently is when native culture is incorporated into the story itself, like in FFX; even then, while it may evoke a sense of fondness and beauty in Japan, it brings a completely different feeling of wonder and curiosity to Western audiences, to which those concepts and references are unfamiliar, and yet hauntingly similar to blurred memories of pictures from Japanese history. Some things are universal, some or not. I just don't see that being the problem in FF XIII.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

...(and went on to make Lost Odyssey, another game I highly recommend that does things right)...

So you DO want the genre to stagnate.

Also RDX, trade ins aren't an indicator of game quality. While it easily could have been that people were frustrated with the game and tried to get rid of it faster than a tumor, there are plenty of people that enjoy a game, decide it ain't for them, or decide that they want to make some money off it to pay for their next fix(in Japan's case probably Monster Hunter related) and sell it back to a store.

There are a multitude of reasons as to why people might trade stuff in. Hell, there were people selling back Dragon Quest IX in droves and giving it 1-star reviews on amazon.co.jp, and that game has thus far sold more than 5 million copies with 90% of that coming from Japan.

It's the same thing that happened with the SE Madcatz Street Fighter IV Fightstick. A few people got some bad units, and thanks to the power of the internet were able to make it sound like the whole production line was shit, which wasn't the case.

If you ever wonder why there isn't a sizable defense for something in this type of situation, it's probably because everyone else is too busy actually enjoying it.

[EC2151]

it's not that people want the genre to stagnate, it's just that they prefer a certain type of gameplay experience.

It's like by saying that I like Touhou games, so I OBVIOUSLY want the shmup genre to stagnate and devolve into bullet hells with lolicon.

The way I see it, FFXIII isn't good on the scale I judge Final Fantasies by. The most bitching I see comes from long-time fans of the series, who like the series FOR A VERY PARTICULAR reason. FFXIII is everything the rest of the series isn't, for the most part.

It's kinda like my evaluation of Metroid Other M: it may be an ok game and fun to play now and then, but it's by far one of the most terrible Metroid games ever released (really battling Hunters for worst Metroid ever).

FFXIII is not a Final Fantasy in my book. The gameplay from everything I've watched is too far removed, the characters too uninteresting (outside of like, Sazh somewhat), the narrative structure a MESS, and a lot of things what make a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game aren't there for me.

Yes I know I didn't play it. I know someone will point that out. But watching the game, I don't find anything engaging like I do with the other FFs, and I have a feeling the others who played the game felt the same way.

The thing is, if this was some spin-off I wouldn't care as much (heck, my favorite FF released recently has been a spin-off), but the fact that this is a main numbered title, kinda makes it sting a little bit more.

And I finally watched the trailer. I really had to laugh at the thing they were making Lightning wear. When I first saw the trailers for XIII, I admit I really liked the design of Lightning. This new one kinda makes her look like a Valkyrie wannabe.

[RDX]

The biggest mystery lies in...the user score

Because why is it so high? Why is it that people I know in real life don't like it, yet the "user score" is high? Did someone make a bunch of accounts to boost it up? It's possible. Have we all just been coincidentally exposed to the people who hated it? Possible. Are the ones who enjoyed it too shy to speak up? Maybe. Or maybe the people who like it are the ones who don't forum.

I haven't played the game myself. Naturally I can't judge. But it's just interesting how, not just on the internet, there are people who will got at length to explain to you why it sucks, and yet on a survey (user score), most people loved it. I thought it's supposed to go the other way around, the survey number is low because only those who hated it would bother to take the survey, while most people who you ask about it would enjoy it. Statistics class fails again.

tl;dr we might as well be debating abortion.

[Kenogu Labz]

It could be a social phenomena. People who go along with others they know in hating it in public... but when it comes time to hit the ratings button, they reflect: "Hey, story stank, but I had FUN playing this. Meh, who's gonna know? *9*"

[Imagist]

To be fair, the only people I know in real life who actually played the game love it, and the people who rag on it never bothered to do so. Myself included.

But, personal anecdotes. They are for the lulz.

[DarkeSword]

The biggest mystery lies in...the user score

Because why is it so high? Why is it that people I know in real life don't like it, yet the "user score" is high? Did someone make a bunch of accounts to boost it up? It's possible. Have we all just been coincidentally exposed to the people who hated it? Possible. Are the ones who enjoyed it too shy to speak up? Maybe. Or maybe the people who like it are the ones who don't forum.

I love FF13 and I try not to bother too much with arguing about it.

Anyway the fact remains that it was—relatively speaking—a critical and commercial success, and like it or not, Square Enix's modus operandi with Final Fantasy is (and has been for a while now, so people really shouldn't be surprised) to treat each numbered Final Fantasy game as a base for a franchise. They did it with VII (Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus), X (X-2), XII (Revenant Wings), and even IV (The After Years). XIII was conceived as a franchise from the start; they even gave it a fancy name: Fabula Nova Crystallis. Seeing as how the main game was successful (i.e. made them money) and they know what to do to make a better one, it's kind of a no-brainer to make a direct sequel.

[ZealPath]

If nothing else I think it makes sense for SE to reuse the assets they created with their Crystal Tools Engine (or whatever it was called) in making more content directly related to FFXIII. I haven't actually played the game but have watched large chunks of it as my roomate played through and feel like whenever I get around to playing it I will probably mostly enjoy it, but that it certainly won't be setting the bar for the series or anything. The graphics however, were spectacular, so at least there's more of that to look forward to in this sequel, hopefully along with a lot more traditional elements like less linearity, towns, etc.

That said, still looking more forward to Versus XIII than anything, where our update on that SE?!

[The Orichalcon]

Anyway I'm looking forward to FFXIII-2. I liked the first one. Hopefully Hamauzu does the music again, because there simply isn't enough Hamauzu music in the world.

QFE. More Hamauzu!

[DarkeSword]

If nothing else I think it makes sense for SE to reuse the assets they created with their Crystal Tools Engine (or whatever it was called) in making more content directly related to FFXIII. I haven't actually played the game but have watched large chunks of it as my roomate played through and feel like whenever I get around to playing it I will probably mostly enjoy it, but that it certainly won't be setting the bar for the series or anything. The graphics however, were spectacular, so at least there's more of that to look forward to in this sequel, hopefully along with a lot more traditional elements like less linearity, towns, etc.

That said, still looking more forward to Versus XIII than anything, where our update on that SE?!

They just released a trailer for it.

Third one down.

http://kotaku.com/5736564/a-visual-guide-to-new-square-enix-trailers

[The Orichalcon]

Versus XIII looks awesome. Loving the look of the battle system. On-field like XII, but with the classy elements from XIII.

Type-O just didn't look that exciting to me. It basically looks like a war between 4 factions, with characters that can morph into different forms (Like Vincent in VII)?

Too early to tell what XIII-2 will be like. But the pretty-pink logo gave me a feeling of dread in remembering X-2.

[zircon]

thephoenix, all I have to say is that your argument is entirely subjective. You (wrongly) dismiss critical reviews and have based your position on people that you've personally talked to. You haven't offered a sound argument on why these aggregate scores are not valid compared to your own opinion and what you've personally observed. I could just as easily say, "For every one person I know that hated FFXIII, I know 10 people that loved it" and that would be about as effective as what you've been posting.

So yeah the critics loved it, but there's a reason why many of us hear people complain about the game, and it's not just because fans are a bunch of whiny bastards. And really anything could be used to explain the high critic score, maybe they appreciate non-absolute shit games more than we do. Or maybe they were "bought off". Or maybe they're otakus. Or maybe. With the user score though, think about how much effort it takes to make an account and then vote on something. I actually think there'd be less of an incentive to make one as a person who hated the game versus someone who loved it.

No... it's because fans are a bunch of whiny bastards. When people find something they like, they tend not to share their feelings. In comparison, rants or complaints tend to attract more attention, and you're more likely to post about a crappy purchase than a good one (plenty of research on this, most recently one showing the most 'active' Facebook posts are ones with largely negative connotations.) This is intuitive. Have you ever gone out of your way to, say, post about a really great tube of toothpaste? Or a cooking wok? Or your refrigerator? I doubt it. But if you bought a tube of toothpaste and it was full of dead ants, or your refrigerator exploded, or whatever, you absolutely would want to tell as many people as possible.

The Final Fantasy "fandom" has grown over time. The people who tended to dislike the game are more hardcore gamers, longtime fans of the series but more importantly, fans preferring traditional RPG experiences as opposed to radical deviations that cut out features near-and-dear to their hearts. This group also happens to be very vocal and very active on forums like these, despite their relatively small size (source: look at the sales of your average JRPG, the market is very small.)

To draw a parallel, I'm very active in the community of hobbyist/pro composers that use sample libraries. There is one library (Garritan Personal Orchestra) that is generally looked down upon. It gets very negative feedback, some of the harshest I've ever seen. If you were just basing your view of the library on these forum opinions, you'd think it was abysmal. However, you have to remember that these vocal forum users are also the most tech-savvy, demanding and picky. They're the ones that have tens of thousands of dollars worth of software each. If you read reviews and opinions from your average user of GPO, or magazine reviews - NOT just forum users - it's actually very well-loved and highly-rated.

The point is that while the negative opinions drown out the good ones, this isn't a good 'slice' of the overall base of users, many of whom are casual computer musicians that wouldn't have any interest in registering on a forum just to talk about this library. Thus while people on NeoGAF, Kotaku or OCR might be vocal about disliking FFXIII, that's not a good slice of the ENTIRE FFXII gamer base.

[relyanCe]

stop making sense zircon it just gets you insulted

[The Derrit]

thephoenix, all I have to say is that your argument is entirely subjective. You (wrongly) dismiss critical reviews and have based your position on people that you've personally talked to. You haven't offered a sound argument on why these aggregate scores are not valid compared to your own opinion and what you've personally observed. I could just as easily say, "For every one person I know that hated FFXIII, I know 10 people that loved it" and that would be about as effective as what you've been posting.

No... it's because fans are a bunch of whiny bastards. When people find something they like, they tend not to share their feelings. In comparison, rants or complaints tend to attract more attention, and you're more likely to post about a crappy purchase than a good one (plenty of research on this, most recently one showing the most 'active' Facebook posts are ones with largely negative connotations.) This is intuitive. Have you ever gone out of your way to, say, post about a really great tube of toothpaste? Or a cooking wok? Or your refrigerator? I doubt it. But if you bought a tube of toothpaste and it was full of dead ants, or your refrigerator exploded, or whatever, you absolutely would want to tell as many people as possible.

The Final Fantasy "fandom" has grown over time. The people who tended to dislike the game are more hardcore gamers, longtime fans of the series but more importantly, fans preferring traditional RPG experiences as opposed to radical deviations that cut out features near-and-dear to their hearts. This group also happens to be very vocal and very active on forums like these, despite their relatively small size (source: look at the sales of your average JRPG, the market is very small.)

To draw a parallel, I'm very active in the community of hobbyist/pro composers that use sample libraries. There is one library (Garritan Personal Orchestra) that is generally looked down upon. It gets very negative feedback, some of the harshest I've ever seen. If you were just basing your view of the library on these forum opinions, you'd think it was abysmal. However, you have to remember that these vocal forum users are also the most tech-savvy, demanding and picky. They're the ones that have tens of thousands of dollars worth of software each. If you read reviews and opinions from your average user of GPO, or magazine reviews - NOT just forum users - it's actually very well-loved and highly-rated.

The point is that while the negative opinions drown out the good ones, this isn't a good 'slice' of the overall base of users, many of whom are casual computer musicians that wouldn't have any interest in registering on a forum just to talk about this library. Thus while people on NeoGAF, Kotaku or OCR might be vocal about disliking FFXIII, that's not a good slice of the ENTIRE FFXII gamer base.

BOOM

/thread

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Well while we already knew it was coming, Final Fantasy XIII-2 has a price and release date for December 11th on Steam!

I'm super excited being that in terms of tone and visual design, this one is probably my favorite out of the entire trilogy. With the release of FFXIII on Steam, there were some issues with PC optimization. Not only are they rectifying this for FFXIII-2, but they're also updating FFXIII to fix said issues around the same time including support for different resolutions and other graphics options! Yay JRPGs and Final Fantasy on PC!