Nintendo Wii U

[Crowbar Man]

Because picking flowers, and solving problems with your friends might speak to an adult on a basic level, dealing with love, loss, sex, mortally, etc are things that we relate to on an adult level.

Again indicating you can't have any of these elements if your game isn't M rated. The Love one really gets me, because obviously you need blood/guts/cursing/etc to show a tale of people who are in love with each other. Obviously you can't be sad over loss unless there is blood/guts/cursing either.

Again these statements just seem to be ignoring the fact that there are so many games out there, especially RPGs, that have these elements and aren't M rated.

The Mass Effect 2 and Fallout examples: Those are elements within a great game. I don't think anybody bought them specifically because they were M and they expected those situations.

What I don't understand is why any of this is required for a game to be good in the first place, and why specifically people seek these dark "mature" things. Again, specifically wanting nothing but dark, unhappy, dramatic games seems off balanced. I don't think people naturally seek these things, especially just "because they are an adult"

People should (and often do) just enjoy good entertainment. It shouldn't matter if its E, T, M, G, PG-13, R, etc. If you can't enjoy a good film or game or TV show just because blood isn't pouring down the screen, you really can't be much of an "adult"

Other M:

Personally, I didn't enjoy how it was very little to do with Metroid in general. The gameplay was more like a 3D brawler that happened to have a Metroid skin. Walking around with a Dpad instead of using a nunchuck seemed a dumb decision, and it made aiming your missles with the pointer akward and even dumber. They could of done a 2.5D Metroid and made the game way better. However, Brandon thinks Super Metroid is a dated and terrible game too, so I wouldn't take his opinion too much at heart either.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[DarkeSword]

Again indicating you can't have any of these elements if your game isn't M rated. The Love one really gets me, because obviously you need blood/guts/cursing/etc to show a tale of people who are in love with each other. Obviously you can't be sad over loss unless there is blood/guts/cursing either.

Nobody said you did. You keep making all these straw man arguments. You keep talking about blood/guts/cursing as if these are the only things that M-rated games have. Stop doing that. You are wrong.

The Mass Effect 2 and Fallout examples: Those are elements within a great game. I don't think anybody bought them specifically because they were M and they expected those situations.

Um, what? Mass Effect resonates with so many people precisely because it's good science fiction; the kind of science fiction that acts as allegory to explore adult themes, like the ethics in science, racism/xenophobia, the moral dilemmas that come along with waging war, etc.

What I don't understand is why any of this is required for a game to be good, and why specifically people seek these dark mature things. Again, specifically wanting nothing but dark, unhappy, dramatic games seems off balanced. I don't think people naturally seek these things, especially just "because they are an adult"

It's not required for a game to be good. Nintendo games that don't deal with these things are also good. But games that deal with adult and mature themes can benefit from doing so.

Nobody is saying that they want "nothing but dark, unhappy, dramatic games." Again, you keep making these straw man arguments. Stop doing that.

People should (and often do) enjoy good entertainment. It shouldn't matter if its E, T, M, G, PG-13, R, etc. If you can't enjoy a good animated film or game or TV show just because blood isn't pouring down the screen, you really can't be much of an "adult"

I'm still trying to figure out whose arguments you're actually trying to refute. Nobody here is saying any of that.

The point being made is that as a first-party Nintendo rarely offers games that deal with more adult themes in an adult way (and I'm not talking about blood and gore, before you start going off on that again). Acquiring Atlus will help them with that (see the aforementioned Persona 4), but the worry (a worry that I don't share, mind you) is that Nintendo may neuter what Atlus does by trying to scale-back the mature content in their games.

Anyway stop making all these out-of-the-blue straw man arguments.

[Garrett Williamson]

What I've learned from all three big gaming companies now is that all they seriously want is money. They just don't even care about anything else but money anymore. It's really sad, honestly

[Crowbar Man]

DarkSword:

You keep talking about blood/guts/cursing as if these are the only things that M-rated games have.

If a game doesn't have blood/guts/cursing/etc, but have elements such as loss, love, dealing with things on a mature level, it gets rated as Teen. Blood/Guts/Cursing ARE generally what bumps up a game to M. Constantly saying you have to be M to have mature story elements is wrong.

I'm not even talking about Nintendo BTW, just stating games in general. Doesn't matter what platform or company is being discussed. This applies to videogames in general.

(However, I already mentioned Nintendo generally doesn't bother with 2nd/3rd party items. They wouldn't touch the game if Atlus became 2nd party, but I really doubt that Nintendo is going to buy them.)

Mass Effect containing those elements doesn't make it good. Being a good game makes it good, and containing those elements enhanced that. If the underlying game wasn't good none of that would matter. Being M doesn't magically mean it will contain those elements either, nor does not being M mean it wont have any of those elements. The M has little to nothing to do with why it is a good game or what the game contains. M is simply a content rating. (ESRB M due to: Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Content, Strong Language, Violence.)

I still don't buy into the "I'm an adult, so I play M rated games". It seems incredibly immature and that was precisely the response i got when I said "I don't understand peoples obsession with games having to be rated M rated"

But since I'm not even talking about Nintendo or Wii U at this point I guess I'll move on.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Bleck]

What I've learned from all three big gaming companies now is that all they seriously want is money.

this is how every company in the history of the concept of a company has functioned

[Ethan Rex]

DarkSword:

If a game doesn't have blood/guts/cursing/etc, but have elements such as loss, love, dealing with things on a mature level, it gets rated as Teen. Blood/Guts/Cursing ARE generally what bumps up a game to M. Constantly saying you have to be M to have mature story elements is wrong.

But isn't it the inclusion of "blood/guts/cursing/etc" something that helps increase the impact of these mature themes?

I'm pretty sure

scene (Bioshock 1 spoilers) wouldn't have half the emotional impact it did if it was edited to fit a T rating.

A game doesn't have to have an M rating to have mature themes - Braid is a perfect example. But no one is saying that they do so I don't know who you're trying to argue against really

[Crowbar Man]

Actually that what has been said (mostly by Rama) specifically multiple times that you can't have mature themes unless its M rated, which isn't true and what my argument was.

As far as your example, you could work a scene similar to that and still have a lasting impact with a T rating. The blood/violence isn't really for maturity but for "shock value", which... the game IS called BioShock (Love that game BTW)

Earthbound:

$10 is technically super cheap for Earthbound if you compare it to the $150+ it goes for on eBay.

I still think their VC games are still a priced too high overall, but if any game deserves a slight premium it would be EB. Who is going to throw a tantrum over a $1 anyways? It isn't like they are charging 50% more or higher. Though it is strange they charged the US more, and released the game for .30 for a limited time in Japan... kinda backwards.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Ramaniscence]

Some titles can pull off mature stories without having an M rating, some can't, and some don't even try. That's ok.

And that's not to say that things created to be acceptable for children don't also incorporate subtle mature/adult situations to make them desirable by general audiences (Spongebob, Adventure Time).

Actually that what has been said (mostly by Rama) specifically multiple times that you can't have mature themes unless its M rated, which isn't true and what my argument was.

I do not even...

[Crowbar Man]

Because I am an adult, and my gameplay experience goes beyond games with little or no dialogue, little to no plot, where things of not much circumstance happen, etc etc etc.

Dealing with love, loss, sex, mortally, etc are things that we relate to on an adult level.

Also, I wouldn't call SpongeBob and AdventureTime great examples of maturity either. Almost feel those are mocking statements to me. Sure, they have some tiny elements in them, but to act like there is nothing between SpongeBob and Mass Effect is a bit strange.

But that is neither here nor there. Again, I don't think its mature to seek out "adult things" because "you are an adult" instead of just enjoying whatever material comes your way.

But whatever floats everyones boats. Time to go back to Nintendo/Wii U discussions!

Edited July 24, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Ramaniscence]

Also, I wouldn't call SpongeBob and AdventureTime great examples of maturity either. Almost feel those are mocking statements to me.

But that is neither here nor there. Again, I don't think its mature to seek out things "because you are an adult" instead of just enjoying whatever material comes your way.

I am not going to try to convince you of anything any further. You either have no ability to comprehend mature concepts, or you're argumentative for the sake of arguing. Either way you are no longer worth my time in this discussion.

[DarkeSword]

Mass Effect containing those elements doesn't make it good. Being a good game makes it good, and containing those elements enhanced that. If the underlying game wasn't good none of that would matter. Being M doesn't magically mean it will contain those elements either, nor does not being M mean it wont have any of those elements. The M has little to nothing to do with why it is a good game or what the game contains. M is simply a content rating. (ESRB M due to: Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Content, Strong Language, Violence.)

No, those things are exactly what makes Mass Effect good. A game is more than just the part where you press the buttons. It is everything put together; it is scenario writing, it is art direction, it is sound design, it is gameplay mechanics. The Mass Effect Trilogy is a game about war and morality. If you don't depict war in a game about war, you have lessened the impact of the message the game is trying to convey.

I still don't buy into the "I'm an adult, so I play M rated games". It seems incredibly immature and that was precisely the response i got when I said "I don't understand peoples obsession with games having to be rated M rated

If you don't "buy into" it, then you're just ignorant. Rama spelled it out very clearly. As adults, there are times when we want to play games that deal with themes that are relatable. It's not about an obsession. It's about having variety. Nintendo isn't really offering that experience on the WiiU with fresh, new games, and that's not good.

[Crowbar Man]

No, those things are exactly what makes Mass Effect good. A game is more than just the part where you press the buttons. It is everything put together; it is scenario writing, it is art direction, it is sound design, it is gameplay mechanics. The Mass Effect Trilogy is a game about war and morality. If you don't depict war in a game about war, you have lessened the impact of the message the game is trying to convey.

None of that has to do with an M rating. War and morality can easily be shown in a T game, and has plenty of time in many RPGs. Again, misconception that "Mature" actually means mature. It doesn't. Also, maybe you'd play a terrible broken game just because it contained those said elements, but I doubt many would. The underlying game needs to be good for a game to be enjoyable, no if ands or buts. If the foundation of a good game isn't there, adding all that extra stuff on top isn't really going to help it. The foundation needs to be good

And feel free to call me "ignorant" but I have never once seen an advertisement for a game and said "Oh boy , I'm an adult, I am relating this game on an adult level and must obtain it because I am an adult"

When I see a game its usually "Wow this game looks fun to play" or "That story looks interesting" Whether its M, T, or E is irrelevant. I have never once thought about how "adult" the content was. (well, except maybe when I was actually a child)

If you really insist on dragging Nintendo into the conversation:

Anybody who buys a Wii U or Nintendo product expecting lots of M-rated games again hasn't followed history or even knows much about Nintendo. They just don't do this kind of thing on a first party level. They never have. They never will. M rated games generally have come from their 2nd and 3rd parties, but even those are few and far between. The Wii U just isn't going to be a good place for them, and if you have some sort of obsession with these games... get a 360/PS3/PS4/XBO/etc. Heck, even if you don't, buy a second console anyway. General rule of thumb you can't get everything you want on a single console.

Nintendo doesn't need M rated games per se to help the Wii U... they just need games PERIOD. That is the main failure for the Wii U right now. And Nintendo IS working on that.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Antonio Pizza]

Is it just me or do the same old discussions keep cropping up every third or fourth page for something like a 12-page streak?

[Crowbar Man]

It'll probably keep happening until games come out for the Wii U (which is happening soon!) then we can all shut up and play some games on it instead of ranting about random near idiotic things

Probably not though lol

[DarkeSword]

If you really insist on dragging Nintendo into the conversation:

Anybody who buys a Wii U or Nintendo product expecting lots of M-rated games again hasn't followed history or even knows much about Nintendo. They just don't do this kind of thing on a first party level. They never have. They never will. M rated games generally have come from their 2nd and 3rd parties, but even those are few and far between. The Wii U just isn't going to be a good place for them, and if you have some sort of obsession with these games... get a 360/PS3/PS4/XBO/etc. Heck, even if you don't, buy a second console anyway. General rule of thumb you can't get everything you want on a single console.

Nintendo doesn't need M rated games per se to help the Wii U... they just need games PERIOD. That is the main failure for the Wii U right now. And Nintendo IS working on that.

I'm not "dragging Nintendo" into the conversation. This is the Wii U thread. Talking about Nintendo is what's supposed to happen here.

The fact that Nintendo does not provide the options to play games that fall under the full range of ratings (either through first party or by aggressively courting third-parties) is a failure and it lends to their image problem as a "kiddie" console. There's nothing wrong with those E and T games at all (I'm a huge fan), but Nintendo is always thinking about innovation in hardware and control systems, and those innovations could really do a lot in the realm of M-rated games that people like and want to play.

Quite frankly, Nintendo is a games company, and they should be able to cater to a wider demographic. The fact that they don't is not something to just roll over and accept, or to be proud of.

Oh also, just to be clear, I own and regularly play PC, WiiU, 360, PS3, 3DS, and Vita games. I also have a PS4 on pre-order. I know all about what everyone has to offer.

[Antonio Pizza]

Kiddies are people too. They want games also.

You don't stroll into KFC looking to buy a taco salad. Sometimes alienating your base for the sake of "expanding your market" is a terrible move and it backfires (you've seen it outside of gaming, too).

[The Derrit]

i like nintendo but you really can't be like 'it's a good thing there's only a limited variety of games on nintendo consoles'

it's not. is the nintendo brand niche? yeah kind of. is it *more importantly* meant for mass consumption? yes, definitely. would more of the general public consume it if there were a higher variety of games and aaa third party support? yes.

so that kind of sums it up. putting out M-rated games on a nintendo console does not keep people from buying the games they want. 'alienating' is a huge misnomer and a really dumb thing to say. i have an xbox 360 and of my 18 game collection like 5 of them are "m-rated shooters." xbox has not 'alienated' me by having tons of shooters on it because i can still buy other games. i have free will. imagine that.

Edited July 24, 2013 by The Derrit

[liquid wind]

you could say that nintendo would sell more if they had wider appeal but at the same time nintendo's fanbase has repeatedly shunned darker, grittier games whether they be by nintendo or third parties. how did zombiU sell? metroid was never a cash cow was it? how about majora's mask, didn't most of nintendo's fans just bitch that it wasn't as good as OoT? don't know the sales figures offhand but I don't recall madworld being a big system seller or anything. most of these aren't even M rated games and nintendo's primary demographic wanted nothing to do with them, can't blame nintendo for crawling deeper and deeper into the "family friendly" niche, that's what we consumers have demanded.

Edited July 24, 2013 by liquid wind

[Mirby]

Is it just me or do the same old discussions keep cropping up every third or fourth page for something like a 12-page streak?

yes

yes they do

[The Derrit]

you could say that nintendo would sell more if they had wider appeal but at the same time nintendo's fanbase has repeatedly shunned darker, grittier games whether they be by nintendo or third parties.

because people make bad shooters on nintendo systems

it's really not that hard to understand

[Brandon Strader]

Nintendo needs to go a lot farther to improve their appeal than to just release mature games on their system... they're still really seen as the child's console, they need to improve that image.

[Bleck]

because kids def don't buy games no mo

[Dexie]

because kids def don't buy games no mo

They do, it's just that they want GTA and Call of Duty.

[Crowbar Man]

Their consoles are only seen as a child's console for people who have the immature mindstate that games that aren't rated M are for children. Obviously they aren't Nintendo's target audience, they are probably busy playing Halo/CoD and fist bumping anyways. (Either that, or by actual children who think M games are "cool", often enough)

Their target audience are: People who already love Nintendo products, "Everybody" (young or old who just love fun), and yes, younger audiences.

Conversely PS4/XBO are mostly targeted at audiences that eat up M-rated stuff. Finding a lot of good content that is suitable for "Everybody" is getting harder on these platforms. In this same thread I asked for happy colorful games outside of Nintendo, i got a boatload full of M rated bloody/gore titles instead of something suitable for the entire family.

Now, with a large install base and a varied audience, you can still sell an E or T game on 360/PS3/PS4/XBO, but selling an M rated game on a Nintendo console is an uphill battle simply because it wont reach its main target audience.

Who buys a Nintendo console primarily for M rated games? Nobody (well, nobody who knows anything about Nintendo at least)

That being said, Nintendo still funds/publishes 2nd and 3rd party games that are M. It isn't like they aren't trying. But why anybody would expect a company who traditionally doesn't make M rated games to suddenly start doing so internally is beyond me. Why not let a company make games that they are good at making and that people enjoy? I don't understand this notion of "STOP WHAT YOURE GOOD AT AND DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, BE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE"

Again the major problem with the Wii U isn't even the M rated games. It has a crap ton of them by 3rd parties and even more on the way... but they are games you can get anywhere. There is no real benefit to getting them on the Wii U, so who cares? What it is missing is Nintendo magic Nintendo themselves have not made any noteworthy games on it. That is the problem.

For 7+ months they have only released:

Nintendo Land (Fun, but party game / tech demo)

New Super Mario Bros U (Fun, but NSMB. You either love it or hate it, it isn't Nintendo's best series)

Game & Wario (Party game / literally tech demos, not even a true WarioWare game and not even particularly good)

Published by Nintendo:

Sing Party (FreeStyleGames... but why was this game even made? Ugh)

That's.. it.

Fixing itself here in the next few months and hopefully keeping up the pace!

Speaking of here is a list of upcoming major games on Wii U:

Pikmin 3 - 8/4 (Nintendo)

Rayman Legends - 9/3 (Ubisoft)

Wonderful 101 - 9/15 (Nintendo/Platinum)

Sonic: Lost World - 10/22 (Nintendo/Sega)

Zelda: WW: HD - October (Nintendo)

Donkey Kong Country Returns: Tropical Freeze - November (Nintendo (Retro Studios))

Super Mario 3D World - December (Nintendo)

If you are so inclined:

Wii Party U - October (Nintendo)

Wii Fit U - December (Nintendo)

And if for some reason you don't have a 360/PS3/PS4/XBO/PC/etc or you just really want something on your Wii U

Splinter Cell: Black List 8/20 (Ubisoft)

Batman: Arkham Origins 10/25 (WB)

Assassins Creed IV - 10/29 (Ubisoft)

CoD: Ghosts - 11/13 (Activision)

Watch Dogs - 11/19 (Ubisoft)

Edited July 24, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Brandon Strader]

because kids def don't buy games no mo

I think Xbox One proves that kids still play games. Us "older folk" were outraged by the drm and whatever but the console was aimed at the "new generation" of gamers and in that regard it will probably be successful. It's hard to tell who Nintendo is catering to sometimes, but it seems to come back to families (non-gamers) or casual gamers.