League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Dexie]

Pretty much. If you're playing a ranged AD that's not Graves, you're intentionally gimping the team.

[zircon]

Yep. I would put Tristana and Ashe as near the same tier, personally, since the former has an escape and a massive steroid, while Ashe has the double W/R burst and harass. However none have the ridiculous complete kit of abilities as Graves. I actually think Vayne is pretty weak. She is all single-target damage so most competent teams can deal with her easily. She has very little range and no poke. This means her early game is really poor unless you have a very skilled and aggressive lanemate, but even then, a competent enemy will ward bushes and prevent aggression that way.

Edited February 22, 2012 by zircon

[Skyline Drop]

Pretty much. If you're playing a ranged AD that's not Graves, you're intentionally gimping the team.

I don't really know how much I agree with this. Corki has almost just as much as Graves does; big AoE damage, a solid escape, an awesome steroid, strong laning. Corki comes with better poke and (in my opinion) higher kill potential in lane (that armor shred+true damage) if you play it right, but Graves is tankier and has stronger burst damage. Cait also has the unique ability to pretty much auto-win lane thanks to spammable long range harass and strong zoning abilities in her traps and passive. Tristana and Kog are pretty much tied for the strongest late game (mostly due to their insane steroids and huge range), which, in most comps, are what you pick AD carries for, anyway. Heck, Tristana has 2 two disengages versus most carries' one.

It seems to me like the AD carries are the most balanced champion role in the game right now.

[zircon]

They are pretty balanced, but there are still tiers.

Corki is not bad. However, he's very squishy and very mana-reliant compared to Graves. His poke is not as good until level 6, and even then, Graves scales harder. Basically, Graves does everything Corki can do but better.

I pretty much never lose to Cait as Graves either. Her poke is decent but she has to stand still to do it, and it's linear. You also can't use it quickly in teamfights due to the long windup. Graves can E+Q her in the face easily and there's not a lot Cait can do about it. Traps help, but with proper warding, you can achieve the same effect elsewhere.

Tristana's attack speed buff is comparable to Graves, but the latter also has 2 AD-scaling abilities while Trist has none. Trist is still good but in a different way. She has more mobility and can deal with high-heal comps better. However, her earlier game is a lot worse and might not make up for it. Kog I think is best played as a hybrid. He does more damage than almost anyone in the game so I agree he's a beast. Too bad he's so squishy with no escapes, though.

[Tensei]

When you have a role description as narrow as "Does a lot of damage, scales well with DPS items, needs farm", the champion with slightly better numbers than the others will always be the optimal pick.

[k-wix]

On the subject of 'stupid-good' champions - How does everyone feel about Master Yi? Anytime I face one who knows what they are doing, I'm always dumbfounded at what they can make him do.

I feel like his Alpha Strike deals absurd damage, puts him in good range with who he wants to be close to, and doubles as an AMAZING defensive ability since he just sort've 'vanishes' and teleports to a bunch of enemies in rapid succession. A smart Yi uses it to get by skillshots and area skills. I can't think of many other champions with something this good.

His passive is absurd, he scales really well into late-game, he is one of the fastest champions in the game, and as if that wasn't enough - Meditate can make him feel surprisingly tanky with absolutely no item investment.

[The Derrit]

On the subject of 'stupid-good' champions - How does everyone feel about Master Yi? Anytime I face one who knows what they are doing, I'm always dumbfounded at what they can make him do.

I feel like his Alpha Strike deals absurd damage, puts him in good range with who he wants to be close to, and doubles as an AMAZING defensive ability since he just sort've 'vanishes' and teleports to a bunch of enemies in rapid succession. A smart Yi uses it to get by skillshots and area skills. I can't think of many other champions with something this good.

His passive is absurd, he scales really well into late-game, he is one of the fastest champions in the game, and as if that wasn't enough - Meditate can make him feel surprisingly tanky with absolutely no item investment.

a team with no hard cc (read: stun/snare) will get rocked by him but if you can hit him with one he will pretty much die. and if people on your team don't get that then you're screwed but he should always be the first to go pretty much

[zircon]

Right. He has the problem that all melee champions have. Even with Cleanse and QSS, they have a very hard time dealing with CC and champs that can boost their own speed, blink/flash or leap away (which is a sizable portion of the cast, at this point.) The reason Tryndamere and Gangplank are considered somewhat high tier is because Tryndamere has 2 ways of closing the gap very quickly, plus an ult that lets him stick to people even longer, and Gangplank has both team utility and a ranged poke. Yi doesn't have any of these things. His best use is as a backdoor/pusher but again, competent teams can deal with that.

Melee AD carries in LoL generally need some love.

[The Derrit]

Right. He has the problem that all melee champions have. Even with Cleanse and QSS, they have a very hard time dealing with CC and champs that can boost their own speed, blink/flash or leap away (which is a sizable portion of the cast, at this point.) The reason Tryndamere and Gangplank are considered somewhat high tier is because Tryndamere has 2 ways of closing the gap very quickly, plus an ult that lets him stick to people even longer, and Gangplank has both team utility and a ranged poke. Yi doesn't have any of these things. His best use is as a backdoor/pusher but again, competent teams can deal with that.

Melee AD carries in LoL generally need some love.

while poppy isn't exactly an ad carry i think she sticks out as a melee non-tanky fighter that has good utility. she can just fly out of the jungle and smash someone into a wall, having a good way to close the gap, and then do a big chunk of damage. that plus her ult, which can be used defensively (put it on sona and you're fine for seven seconds) and she can also stick to people pretty well. that plus her damage mitigation and speed boost and i really don't see why she gets so little love.

[zircon]

Well, she's not an AD carry like Yi, Trynd, Talon or Jax. She's kind of in her own class. A melee.. AP.. offtank assassin, I guess. I agree she's pretty strong overall, I think the issue with picking her is where to put her in the laning phase. She has very poor farming and lane presence unless someone can help set up ganks/kills, such as Alistar. But then that throws other things off. Someone like Singed fills a similar role, in that he can run into a teamfight, take little damage, and really ruin someone's day, but he is also capable of solo laning. Poppy has no range or pokes whatsoever.

[The Derrit]

Well, she's not an AD carry like Yi, Trynd, Talon or Jax. She's kind of in her own class. A melee.. AP.. offtank assassin, I guess. I agree she's pretty strong overall, I think the issue with picking her is where to put her in the laning phase. She has very poor farming and lane presence unless someone can help set up ganks/kills, such as Alistar. But then that throws other things off. Someone like Singed fills a similar role, in that he can run into a teamfight, take little damage, and really ruin someone's day, but he is also capable of solo laning. Poppy has no range or pokes whatsoever.

she can solotop against another equivalent character like shyvanna, udyr, mundo, garen, etc.

she can also jungle but people seem to not quite get that yet

[zircon]

Jungle, really? Her clear time would be abysmal though and she has no sustain. Usually a jungler needs at least one of those things to be effective (eg. Trundle is single-target, but has decent sustain, Udyr has both, Skarner has fast clear). Top I would imagine she'd just get dumped on since she has no poke and no CC unless she's right there, so good luck escaping from any ganks. But I'd be interested to play a game with you and see you try it.

[prophetik music]

Jungle, really? Her clear time would be abysmal though and she has no sustain. Usually a jungler needs at least one of those things to be effective (eg. Trundle is single-target, but has decent sustain, Udyr has both, Skarner has fast clear). Top I would imagine she'd just get dumped on since she has no poke and no CC unless she's right there, so good luck escaping from any ganks. But I'd be interested to play a game with you and see you try it.

she's an excellent jungle, actually, although she gets most of her money and experience from kills - making her just as all-or-nothing as in lane.

i've had an ad poppy creamate my team from excellently timed ganks all over the place.

[eternal Zero]

Poppy top is pretty weak. Can't out damage the bruisers unless they're dumb enough to be near walls and you can't out sustain the tanks. It's kind of like Udyr. Sure they can top. Sure they can jungle slightly above average if the enemy team doesn't invade. Overall they're better in the jungle but if you're playing to win you might as well play someone else.

[zircon]

she's an excellent jungle, actually, although she gets most of her money and experience from kills - making her just as all-or-nothing as in lane.

i've had an ad poppy creamate my team from excellently timed ganks all over the place.

Yeah but depending on who you're playing with - cough Wynks - you/we could lose to AD Sona Poppy jungle is WAY too slow to be any good. She would get virtually no XP/gold at all without kills and because she has no blink/jump that isn't targeted, wards counter her 100%.

[prophetik music]

hey, ad sona is boss!

so is movespeed/as naut =)

[The Derrit]

i just dove on a team trying to take baron as taric

got a triple kill and the steal. so happy

[Bleck]

why did I ever stop playing as skarner

[prophetik music]

i've been playing a lot lately as warwick or trundle. both are just so good out of the jungle that i'm having trouble finding other jungle characters that are better to play, unless you need a primary tank like rammus or an ap like mummy or shitshaco. i think i'm going to learn to jungle jax and xin next.

trundle is awesome because he just shits damage all the time, can take a beating, and his passive is amazing at keeping his hp up in lane even without lifesteal. it's awesome walling someone in hard, though - i had a game where i boxed in rammus powerballing away on two different occasions, and we managed to catch him as a result. i build him super-tanky, with wriggles, merc treads, sheen or phage into trinity force, then atmogs and usually a ga. i *never* finish builds in my games, usually because they're either over quickly or because i'm a tank and don't get much gold, but i finished that build and maxed consumables two or three times in five games as him. that's pretty good farm for me =) he's already got absurd AS and stock AD, and being able to get up past 500 damage every 3 seconds with his q - resetting the attack animation! - is just awesome. as long as your teammates are smart and understand his limitations early game, he's great, and gets first blood or early assist every game.

ww is awesome not only because of his ult being just so good, but also because by the end of the game he can just stand around and take on almost anyone 1v1, and annihilate them. i tend to build him with on-hit effects and some damage, so stuff like wriggles, spellpen boots, wits end, malady, etc. i did tankwick one game a while back with wits end, wriggles, old starks, merc treads, warmogs, and FoN, and nothing could kill me without constantly disabling me - i could just lifesteal everything back, my passive hp regen was absurd, and i would just run away if they started to really hurt thanks to his e.

[Bleck]

i've been playing a lot lately as warwick

i'm having trouble finding other jungle characters that are better to play

excuse me what

[prophetik music]

excuse me what

you don't like warwick out of the jungle?

i'm assuming you're going to mention skarner, who is a great jungler. i'm a bit burnt out on him at the moment, because it seems every game i play with him, i do really well, but we still lose. his lack of close-the-cap (beyond just going fast) means that it's hard to get that first hit, and beacuse he has no hard cc until level six, he's not good ganking at mid unless the other player's up at your tower because they'll just flash out. he has a high damage output and can do a lot, and his slow and general utility make him a lot of fun to play, but having that awesome initiation that ww has, plus being able to boost everyone's AS when pushing towers, plus the huge sustain from the lifesteal, just makes him so much more fun to play.

now, ww suffers from a lot of the same issues - but ww can solo dragon at level five or six, whereas i rarely solo dragon ever with skarner. ww also doesn't really need blue, whereas skarner kind of needs it unless he gets a tear and levels it way up. early game, skarner also has to go back to base earlier and more often, since inevitably you'll run out of hp and mana, whereas ww tends to stay out a lot more.

trundle's the same way - beacuse you can start with lifesteal on him, and with his passive, he's always got high hp. he also doesn't burn through mana that fast if you're careful about using contaminate. he lasts longer in lane, and that pillar gets kills hands-down. plus, trundle's biggest bonus is how he shuts down enemies - his q reduces AD by a significant amount, his ult reduces resistances, and his increased AS from contaminate allows him to get his hp back up quick between his passive and his lifesteal. even if his pillar wasn't so good, i'd say that his high damage output with q just makes him amazing.

i know skarner's one of the top junglers in the game, but there's a reason people aren't seeing him as much anymore, just like other characters have started to fade a bit. i've always felt that junglers need some sort of hard cc to get early kills against smart opponents, and more and more that's what i'm seeing. characters like xin, shaco (fear), rammus, and jax are becoming more and more used because of their high early-game damage output and their hard cc, and honestly, i'd take hard cc over light cc and more damage against a good teamcomp.

[zircon]

I don't think Trundle's damage output is that high... it's decent, but all single-target and based on auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great champ and probably one of the most balanced around. But I don't think of him as high DPS compared to champs like Riven, Renekton or Lee Sin. He is definitely a tank/initiator/ganker.

[Dexie]

Here's a fun fact. Trundle is the least changed champion in the game.

http://www.lol-patch.com/trundle.html

He's only been changed in four patches, and three of those changes were bug fixes. I guess Riot sees him as pretty balanced, too. Pity I never see anyone playing him. He's a neat champ, I just don't like his style.

[Bleck]

i'm assuming you're going to mention skarner, who is a great jungler.

or udyr or lee sin or shaco or trundle or dr mundo or volibear or jax or maokai or nocturne or rammus or shyvana or jarvan or nautilus or malphite or amumu or alistar or cho gath or xin zhao or olaf or tryndamere

any of those really

i'm a bit burnt out on him at the moment, because it seems every game i play with him, i do really well, but we still lose. his lack of close-the-cap (beyond just going fast) means that it's hard to get that first hit, and beacuse he has no hard cc until level six, he's not good ganking at mid unless the other player's up at your tower because they'll just flash out. he has a high damage output and can do a lot, and his slow and general utility make him a lot of fun to play

this is all true, and he's still a much better jungler than warwick

now, ww suffers from a lot of the same issues - but ww can solo dragon at level five or six, whereas i rarely solo dragon ever with skarner.

the gold gain from soloing dragon early is negligible compared to the gold gain any other jungler can earn their team by successfully ganking before level six

ww also doesn't really need blue, whereas skarner kind of needs it

this is true, but if the only issue was mana, one questions why you wouldn't take udyr or lee sin or trundle or cho gath

i know skarner's one of the top junglers in the game, but there's a reason people aren't seeing him as much anymore

it's because he's no longer super easy mode; champ popularity will always be determined by how powerful a champ is compared to how easy they are to play as

i've always felt that junglers need some sort of hard cc to get early kills against smart opponents, and more and more that's what i'm seeing.

ganks are arguably not about getting the kill so much as it is forcing someone out of lane

skarner for instance can gank pre-six because his Q and his W still give him good chasing power and damage; even if he or his teammates fail to kill anyone, they'll still probably force them out of lane

characters like xin, shaco (fear), rammus, and jax are becoming more and more used because of their high early-game damage output and their hard cc, and honestly, i'd take hard cc over light cc and more damage against a good teamcomp.

you have to consider how worth it it is to have that early game hard cc, though - having jax' stun for an early gank is better than an early slow from skarner, but then you're losing out on skarner's ult which is one of the best hard ccs in the game (definitely the best utility wise of the four supressions)

[The Derrit]

so.. melee ad "true carry" as they call it

awesome idea? or destined to fail? i love the effort either way