League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[zircon]

I haven't had enough experience with/against him to comment much, but Kha DOES seem pretty strong overall. The only issue *appears* to be that while his leap is great, and he certainly has great gank + damage potential, he appears to lack the CC/utility that other top tier junglers have. He's also not as tanky. Vi, J4, Lee Sin, and Shyvana (who I neglected to mention, but I think she would be at least A?) all have huge natural resilience and major disruption in teamfights.

That said, he's pretty beast in lane, kinda like Zed I think.

Updated the list a bit.

[Ryan Jobson]

Any love for the Nocturne? I jungle that bad boy pretty hard... Silver V now yay!

Also trying out the FABULOUS Taric top lane. SO much fun..... 600+ armor WHAT?

[Koriantor]

I haven't had enough experience with/against him to comment much, but Kha DOES seem pretty strong overall. The only issue *appears* to be that while his leap is great, and he certainly has great gank + damage potential, he appears to lack the CC/utility that other top tier junglers have. He's also not as tanky. Vi, J4, Lee Sin, and Shyvana (who I neglected to mention, but I think she would be at least A?) all have huge natural resilience and major disruption in teamfights.

That said, he's pretty beast in lane, kinda like Zed I think.

Updated the list a bit.

If your tanky champs are in the other lanes, or if your lanes have cc on their own those issues aren't as bad. I'd say he's a situational pick because of that. Kha's stealth, leap, and damage let him come out of nowhere and catch the ganked lane by surprise. Plus he can venture into the enemy jungle to ward or counter a lot easier because of his jump.

(Note: I'm theorizing here, I don't play Kha or have that much experience against him).

[BardicKnowledge]

A few more champs for you to consider adding into the tier list of "worth playing" characters, though they are all difficult to play:

The new champion, Yasuo, is a situational pick top. Which opponent he faces isn't nearly as important as who his allies are. If Yasuo is paired with two other champions who facilitate his ult (e.g. have any sort of knockup/knockback), he shoots right up to S-tier. With only one such ally, he drops to A-tier, and without any assistance from friends, he doesn't qualify for Zircon's list imo (though I'll be running him anyway for a while, as he is boatloads of fun).

Fizz is amazing mid, and is at least A-tier if not competing for an S slot. One of the game's biggest carries if it goes late, more burst damage than just about any other AP character, and the ability to become invulnerable on command while juking two directions make him complex but very competent.

Similarly, I want to argue for Lissandra's inclusion on the list for A-tier mid, though I understand she's much, MUCH better in 3v3 than in 5v5 (she will always compete for best AP character on the smaller map due to her ability to jump directly into and out of the center of each base). The game's longest teleport (tied with Zac), a root that doesn't require her to stop running to cast, and an ult that can both lockdown a target and provide a free Zhonya's Hourglass effect on command make her a CC queen, fitting for her ice motif.

One argument against an AP champ popular in Season 3: Karma imo is now relegated to a situational toplane pick, designed to counter S-tier melee AD champions for whom no other suitable counter exists (especially notable: she dominates Riven outright). As the game shifts emphasis onto burst mages and away from sustained damage over extended fights, Karma will see less and less play. One guide spoke about her as Lissandra's defensive sister, and I buy that 100%...it's just that defense isn't prized in season 4 the way it was in season 3. She makes an okay support, but Lux outclasses here there in nearly every way, unless your team desperately needs the AOE speed boost off of E2.

[eternal Zero]

Tier lists are largely useless when you have things like Lolking that give you win rates in each respective league so you don't have to do any of the guesswork and you know how well champs are doing.

Couple examples: Sivir lost like 5-6% win rate with the latest patch...but she's still sitting pretty at a 53% win rate. Rammus lost a bunch of % but he's still a top 15 champ and not a top 5 champ anymore.

You don't get that arguing over the minutia of kits and trying to tier champions. It's data you can see and use to your advantage. Flavor of the month is readily apparent and you can see if it's working or not! You can see unpopular champions having high win rates and knowing you'll have easy access to them in draft.

A few years ago I might have agreed tier lists had a place back when Reign of Gaming and Stonewall were relevant factors in the scene. Not so much anymore.

Edited December 17, 2013 by eternal Zero

[Nabeel Ansari]

I tried this tank Rengar thing and I got trashed. Don't know what all the commotion is about.

Did better with glass Rengar, gonna keep going with that because it works better for me. I'm just waiting impatiently for the rework.

If anyone here plays Rengar or wants to start, go:

BORK IE SOTD LW Tri Ion Boots

I've done a lot of Rengar builds and I've had the most success with this. Obviously, change the order based on how well you're doing, but I usually always get the BORK first, followed by IE. Those two items makes one shotting a breeze.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Neblix

[kitty]

Tank Rengar is played pretty much the exact opposite of glass cannon Rengar. Patience, farming, split pushing, and bullying/forcing your opponent out of lane (as opposed to outright killing them) are all staples to it. Getting a 50-60 CS lead is pretty much the same as getting 3-4 kills.

I imagine it's not as fun as blowing people up the second you see them, but it's still funny seeing your opponents trying to catch a Rengar with a level advantage, 300 armor, 150 MR, 3000HP, and can heal himself every 5 seconds or something dumb like that.

[Bleck]

I'm pretty sure Yasuo isn't very good but I'm gonna keep playing him because it's so fun

[eternal Zero]

Yasuo is high skill cap with lots of potential. I really like him.

[k-wix]

Yasuo is high skill cap with lots of potential. I really like him.

Yea, this is definitely my take on him - When I was looking at his kit and checking out his abilities, he seemed stronger - like really strong! Now that I've played about 20 or so games with him on both sides, he fits in very well. I generally am only scared of a fed or really skilled Yasuo.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Every time I played against a Yasuo he ragequit :c

Tank Rengar is played pretty much the exact opposite of glass cannon Rengar. Patience, farming, split pushing, and bullying/forcing your opponent out of lane (as opposed to outright killing them) are all staples to it. Getting a 50-60 CS lead is pretty much the same as getting 3-4 kills.

I imagine it's not as fun as blowing people up the second you see them, but it's still funny seeing your opponents trying to catch a Rengar with a level advantage, 300 armor, 150 MR, 3000HP, and can heal himself every 5 seconds or something dumb like that.

I'm sure it works, but it's not fun and is kind of a dumb way to play the champion.

[BardicKnowledge]

Yasuo is high skill cap with lots of potential. I really like him.

Do you think he needs an ally with a knockup? Not that the list is really limiting...

I'm sure it works, but it's not fun and is kind of a dumb way to play the champion.

Most fun and most successful/reliable are rarely the same thing in competitive games.

[The Derrit]

i have yet to lose in my 6 games with yasuo

i really dont think he's particularly hard to play, just read your opponent's movements and figure out when he likes to shoot at/throw spells at you, and don't go in until their you know you're not going to get blown up by everyone's ultimate and/or CC

it's the same thing you do with fiora with slightly more nuance

[eternal Zero]

Do you think he needs an ally with a knockup? Not that the list is really limiting...

At my current skill level with the character, yes, I think so. In general I don't think a super skilled Yasuo will need that kind of backup but there's no reason not to.

I don't maintain my Q stacks well enough on my own to guarantee good ults in fights. I am pretty darn good at dashing around forever and building stacks cause it feels similar to Kassadin and laning though!

[zircon]

Fizz is really strong, yeah. Same kind of role as Kassadin.

Zero: True, simply looking at win rates is usually very informative. The main reason I posted this was simply to give newer players an idea of what champs might be worth learning or practicing.

Regarding Yasuo, he doesn't *appear* to be particularly dominant OR underpowered, but he's definitely scary in that his 3rd Q -> ult combo can 100% to 0 an ADC in about one second if you're not careful. That happened to me earlier as Jinx. Even with barrier, I was toast. Few champs have that sort of ranged assassination.

Edited December 17, 2013 by zircon

[Nabeel Ansari]

Most fun and most successful/reliable are rarely the same thing in competitive games.

Can't win a game if you're not having fun.

[Dyne]

I play this game too. I'm Dyne2057.

[kitty]

I got a 1v5 pentakill with Yasuo in the enemy base tonight. Feels good man. I had a 2 level advantage at most but probably around 3-4k gold advantage at that time.

[DragonAvenger]

^ Doesn't matter, was still amazing.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I got a 1v5 pentakill with Yasuo in the enemy base tonight. Feels good man. I had a 2 level advantage at most but probably around 3-4k gold advantage at that time.

Was this a mosh pit or a clever picking off one by one? (not trying to devalue it, I'm curious how it went down)

[zircon]

He outplayed everyone more or less 1 by 1, with a few clusters I think?

[kitty]

It was Tryndamere 1v1 until he was around half health. Then Ez popped in, I dashed to him with my E, hit him with Q, he blinked with E, I hit him with my whirlwind Q which happened to hit Trynd as well, then I ulted both of them which killed Ez.

Then I hit Trynd low enough that he used his ult, I flashed away and hit Barrier, kited him until his ult was down and then killed him.

Then I killed Orianna who arrived right after that in 3 or 4 hits and Soraka in the same manner.

Finally I killed Nasus under one or both Nexus turrets in 6 or 7 hits.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Then I hit Trynd low enough that he used his ult, I flashed away and hit Barrier, kited him until his ult was down and then killed him.

Then I killed Orianna who arrived right after that in 3 or 4 hits and Soraka in the same manner.

Finally I killed Nasus under one or both Nexus turrets in 6 or 7 hits.

Wait wait WHAT

You were low enough to have to have barrier'd but still could not be defeated by the next three people? This some PBE style shit right here.

[kitty]

Wait wait WHAT

You were low enough to have to have barrier'd but still could not be defeated by the next three people? This some PBE style shit right here.

BORK is borked dude. Plus auto attacking and then using Q like a faux auto-attack reset is really strong with lifesteal. I finished them off with 75% life left. This is why lifesteal is a bullshit mechanic and NEEDS to be nerfed.

[Koriantor]

It also helped that they all ran in to 1v1 you instead of take you down together. Silly players.